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I'm really just waiting to see how the Marine/Necron codexes turn out. They're putting out two books, side by side, for the two "flagship" factions of this edition. The leaks indicate that they're willing to make substantial changes to units and weapons - there is, quite literally, no excuse if the two armies aren't roughly balanced.

9th has felt pretty half-baked so far. I'll have hope for xeno factions this edition if they do the Necrons justice and give us a little more of an identity; if they don't, well, I'll just hope Sisters of Battle get a codex soon...

Xenos are completely finished now. Every single marine unit will overpower 5 xenos units for the same cost. GW do not car they want it this way the rules are finally corroborating with the background fluff and a single marine will soon be a hero level ubermensch capable of killing a squad of xenos elite in one combat. Xenos are done. The marine sales will be forever climbing and soon the game will descend into an even greater farce. I'm imagining horus heresy 2 but without the chaos as they arent even real marines anymore. It's a disgrace

the_scotsman wrote:
If it comforts you, I can promise you with 1000% certainty that there are not more people complaining to GW currently about Tau vehicles than marines. Every single post they put on their fb pages currently gets an absolutely unending flood of marine hatred. Every time I see something on there I go "Damn, this is a bunch of people malding harder than Dakka!"

Yeah, the situation has got so out of whack that even most Space Marine players now feel their faction gets too much attention. Like a third of the recent Best in Faction podcast on Blood Angels was the players involved copmlaining that there are too many space marine releases and they can't get their heads around all of them.

GW isn't stupid enough not to realize how much Space Marine fatigue there is right now.

Archebius wrote:
I'm really just waiting to see how the Marine/Necron codexes turn out. They're putting out two books, side by side, for the two "flagship" factions of this edition. The leaks indicate that they're willing to make substantial changes to units and weapons - there is, quite literally, no excuse if the two armies aren't roughly balanced.

9th has felt pretty half-baked so far. I'll have hope for xeno factions this edition if they do the Necrons justice and give us a little more of an identity; if they don't, well, I'll just hope Sisters of Battle get a codex soon...

If the Doomstalker is obviously average to bad, while the new Primaris Nu-Predator is 10/10 must take - then the salt will flow.
(The reverse could be that the Gladiator (terrible name tbh) has no invul, and is just a 200~ point floating liability in a meta defined by wall to wall melta - but I guess we shall see.)

Icegoat wrote:
Xenos are completely finished now. Every single marine unit will overpower 5 xenos units for the same cost. GW do not car they want it this way the rules are finally corroborating with the background fluff and a single marine will soon be a hero level ubermensch capable of killing a squad of xenos elite in one combat. Xenos are done. The marine sales will be forever climbing and soon the game will descend into an even greater farce. I'm imagining horus heresy 2 but without the chaos as they arent even real marines anymore. It's a disgrace

It's statements like this that make people not listen to you.

Are Marines OP right now? Yes. Is it a problem, especially on the casual scene? Technically no (Covid stops it from being such) but if it ain't fixed by the time we can play again, it will be.

But 100 points of Marines will lose to 500 points of Xenos or Chaos or other Imperium armies of similar roles. It's not THAT bad.

6 Eradicators (240 points) versus a Stompa (905 points) which is widely considered GARBAGE, and for a good reason. Also the Eradicators preferred target-high Toughness, no Invuln beef boi.



Notably, while I didn't apply any bonus to the Eradiactors (which they can easily get, such as Chapter Tactics or a CM and Lt. combo) I also did not apply the effects of a KFF or even D!D!D! to the Stompa. Nor did I use its Supa Rokkits, or fire again with the Gatler.

I got snookered into the math hole, but the point is, your insane hyperbole helps nothing.

Tyel wrote:

If the Doomstalker is obviously average to bad, while the new Primaris Nu-Predator is 10/10 must take - then the salt will flow.
(The reverse could be that the Gladiator (terrible name tbh) has no invul, and is just a 200~ point floating liability in a meta defined by wall to wall melta - but I guess we shall see.)

If I were a betting man, I would bet against Necrons... but as you said, we shall see.

 Jidmah wrote:
Am I missing something? As far as I can tell 40kstats has almost no data recorded for 9th

Indeed, just two tourneys.
It seems that Corona takes its toll.

Xenos are completely finished now. Every single marine unit will overpower 5 xenos units for the same cost. GW do not car they want it this way the rules are finally corroborating with the background fluff and a single marine will soon be a hero level ubermensch capable of killing a squad of xenos elite in one combat. Xenos are done. The marine sales will be forever climbing and soon the game will descend into an even greater farce. I'm imagining horus heresy 2 but without the chaos as they arent even real marines anymore. It's a disgrace.

I wouldn't be too pessimistic at this point.
But in fact, it goes in the wrong direction atm.

Icegoat wrote:
Xenos are completely finished now. Every single marine unit will overpower 5 xenos units for the same cost. GW do not car they want it this way the rules are finally corroborating with the background fluff and a single marine will soon be a hero level ubermensch capable of killing a squad of xenos elite in one combat. Xenos are done. The marine sales will be forever climbing and soon the game will descend into an even greater farce. I'm imagining horus heresy 2 but without the chaos as they arent even real marines anymore. It's a disgrace

Holy gak dude, you seriously need to take a timeout. Show me on the doll where the Space Marine touched you.

I can't believe this farcical thread is still going. It's mostly a Marines-hating circle jerk of sadness and depression that is reinforcing everyone's negative opinion of this website. And don't get me started on the hyperbole...

GW has already stated that they are going to update the various Xenos, just that it's not all going to happen right away. Saying that "Xenos armies are finished! Waa, waa, waa!" is a complete overreaction. I've been in that situation before where my army sucked; I played 6th edition Dark Angels (who are Marines if it matters), and until they got their 7th edition codex they were absolutely rock bottom, worst of the worst, as a competitive faction. I think I only won like 2 games with them (to be fair, I was new to 40k, but still, using that DA codex was playing 40k on hard mode), and even then it was only in very casual play and my opponents were taking it easy on me with their lists to help me learn the game. Then, along came their new Codex and they finally became a decently good army. My point with this is, just stick with it, it might be rough at first but when your army's new book comes out it will give your army the boost it needs. I didn't get all butthurt and give up, and neither should you.

"Yeah you might be terrible for a while but don't complain, just wait another six months or a year (after SM already dominated the year before this one) and if you're lucky you might not be so terrible" is an odd pitch. If that's the best advice to be offered, it suggests something pretty fundamentally wrong with the game.

Note I'm not saying that's how it'll turn out. I still have some hope that even GW can't possibly be out of touch enough not to see the train wreck that would be caused by making the 9th edition SM codex make them even stronger than they are already. I guess I'm an eternal optimist.

I honestly think the issue is new players brought in by 8th, who expected (rightfully at that) to find that the rules would be constantly tweaked and adjusted fame wide to keep everyone happy and remain "stable" for a period of time.

Experience of any previous editions shows that GW is light years ahead of where they were on this front already, where having 1 army be top for years was pretty normal, factions would suck for most of a decade and no updates were given to an army for a full edition, sometimes 2. But they arent going to just balance it all out with infinite little tweaks and leave it in that state.

The more some people try to push 40k as an export the more this issue is going to come up I think.

Dudeface wrote:
I honestly think the issue is new players brought in by 8th, who expected (rightfully at that) to find that the rules would be constantly tweaked and adjusted fame wide to keep everyone happy and remain "stable" for a period of time.

Experience of any previous editions shows that GW is light years ahead of where they were on this front already, where having 1 army be top for years was pretty normal, factions would suck for most of a decade and no updates were given to an army for a full edition, sometimes 2. But they arent going to just balance it all out with infinite little tweaks and leave it in that state.

The more some people try to push 40k as an export the more this issue is going to come up I think.

This.

+ some people are acting like they will be held at gunpoint to play with the weakest units of their respective codex against the latest Marine net lists 24/7 until they will get a codex update in 2 years.

Or maybe I'm just the worst Marine player in existance since my gaming group is having close and fun matches with me.

Dudeface wrote:
stuff

I have no idea what this is trying to say. Are you implying people SHOULDNT expect tweaks and balance game - wide, or that they SHOULD?

And are you implying pushing 40k to be an esport is bad or good?

ThePorcupine wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
stuff

I have no idea what this is trying to say. Are you implying people SHOULDNT expect tweaks and balance game - wide, or that they SHOULD?

And are you implying pushing 40k to be an esport is bad or good?

I'm saying people coming in with no knowledge of GWs history, combined with the push to make it appear like a hyper competitive esport, leads new players to expect that like said esport games you get frequent balance patches, reworks and they don't radically shake things up for long periods of time.

GW aren't an esport video game, they're historically far from. So all this "omg why isn't x faction top, why is y faction getting new books" etc. Is all perfectly normal stuff for a vet to understand, but someone coming in for an esports experience will be left scratching their head.

I think the point is that they SHOULD be more like that.

We aren't in the bad old days of Kirby GW anymore. The company is bigger than its ever been and puts out profits on the scale of some of these online esport-ready games.

What was acceptable 15 years ago is not acceptable now. It's a different company with a much different playerbase, most of whom now came back or started in 8th. Their expectations are different because the gaming (as a whole) landscape is different. And while old-GW may have been able to ignore or sweep a lot of criticism under the rug, the fact that they are so prevalent on social media now and that they are incredibly aggressive about promoting their brands and IP's means that negative PR or toxic environments caused by their business decisions are much more serious.

HOWEVER, I'm not convinced that all these negative comments and backlash against Marines will actually result in any real drop in sales because 70% of those people making them will absolutely be buying the new Marine models.

do NEW players come to the game expecting it to be like esports? Most of the "esports" comparisons I've seen mostly come here not from new faces so much as the long time "tourny playing tryhards"

In my experience it's a mix. You have people who have been in the hobby for a while who call for regular balance patches and newer players who have come to expect it too.

Fact is, if you're 16-35 and you play 40k, you've probably also had lots of experience playing videogames. And while everyone understands they are different mediums, the fact that some games have regular and positive gameplay patches to address issues is sort of another mark against playing GW games. If you can get this kind of content update in a game that already costs you zero money to play, you come to expect more out of something which asks you to pour thousands of [insert currency] into it.

It might not be a fair comparison, but it is what it is.

Yeah I don't think today's GW is anything like old GW. Starting with 8th they really started making their game more balanced, competitive, and frequently updated and tweaked with new rules and points.

Did they knock it out of the park? Not exactly. They certainly had a lot of missteps. But sooner or later the things deemed overpowered were reigned in. Look at the new "look out sir" faqs. After the public outcry they redid the rule in like 48 hours! It's a big step in the right direction.

The indexes of 8th were also an amazing balancing act to kick off a new edition. It didn't eliminate power creep, but it softened it somewhat, making sure all armies had a similar starting point. I wish they did the same thing with 9th.

The marine favoritism though? That's tough. Because there are no indexes in 9th, GW can hide behind "you think marines are powerful? just wait and see what we have cooked up for xenos in 9th!" all the while releasing even more marines. It would be a lot easier to swallow this gak if we had something, anything to tease how we're supposed to deal with marines.

The problem is not the rules themselves, (mostly) everyone has lived with his army being bad for a while... the problem is the attitude of the game being not balanced and GW still improving Marines.

I hope that today on the Warhammer Community stream we xenos have something to dream about.

 Denegaar wrote:
The problem is not the rules themselves, (mostly) everyone has lived with his army being bad for a while... the problem is the attitude of the game being not balanced and GW still improving Marines.

I hope that today on the Warhammer Community stream we xenos have something to dream about.

Which is an assumption made on incomplete information. Does anybody remember when Raven Guard were previewed and nobody really cared? And then boom, infiltrating Centurions.
I too hope that we will get some info. A release plan for the next few codizes would be nice.

 Denegaar wrote:
The problem is not the rules themselves, (mostly) everyone has lived with his army being bad for a while... the problem is the attitude of the game being not balanced and GW still improving Marines.

I hope that today on the Warhammer Community stream we xenos have something to dream about.

don't count on it, GW has already said it's not gonna be 40k focused

 Denegaar wrote:
The problem is not the rules themselves, (mostly) everyone has lived with his army being bad for a while... the problem is the attitude of the game being not balanced and GW still improving Marines.

I hope that today on the Warhammer Community stream we xenos have something to dream about.

But that is a literal first, its not normal for them to keep releasing marine books at this rate or to provide any further buffs. If you're referring to the weapon changes that isn't just marines, if you mean the new profiled for 9th ed, we don't have the codex so is almost pure speculation.

Dudeface wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
stuff

I have no idea what this is trying to say. Are you implying people SHOULDNT expect tweaks and balance game - wide, or that they SHOULD?

And are you implying pushing 40k to be an esport is bad or good?

I'm saying people coming in with no knowledge of GWs history, combined with the push to make it appear like a hyper competitive esport, leads new players to expect that like said esport games you get frequent balance patches, reworks and they don't radically shake things up for long periods of time.

GW aren't an esport video game, they're historically far from. So all this "omg why isn't x faction top, why is y faction getting new books" etc. Is all perfectly normal stuff for a vet to understand, but someone coming in for an esports experience will be left scratching their head.

It was unacceptable then, its unacceptable now.

 Ordana wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
stuff

I have no idea what this is trying to say. Are you implying people SHOULDNT expect tweaks and balance game - wide, or that they SHOULD?

And are you implying pushing 40k to be an esport is bad or good?

I'm saying people coming in with no knowledge of GWs history, combined with the push to make it appear like a hyper competitive esport, leads new players to expect that like said esport games you get frequent balance patches, reworks and they don't radically shake things up for long periods of time.

GW aren't an esport video game, they're historically far from. So all this "omg why isn't x faction top, why is y faction getting new books" etc. Is all perfectly normal stuff for a vet to understand, but someone coming in for an esports experience will be left scratching their head.

It was unacceptable then, its unacceptable now.

It was a minor grievance back then as there wasn't an esports push on an organised tourney circuit. Slow updates etc were the norm so all we get now is an improvement by a large degree, so I'd argue the game as is to any longer standing players who aren't trying push competitive boundaries the current situation probably is more acceptable now.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
The problem is not the rules themselves, (mostly) everyone has lived with his army being bad for a while... the problem is the attitude of the game being not balanced and GW still improving Marines.

I hope that today on the Warhammer Community stream we xenos have something to dream about.

don't count on it, GW has already said it's not gonna be 40k focused

Well at least a hint or a "we'll be releasing two 40k codexes a month!". I'm not expecting new minis, just a beam of hope so I don't have to be waiting with my 8th edition army for 1 year.

I don't really care much, I like my Dark Eldar and I like to paint and convert its models, but it would be nice to have improved rules for Christmas or so

Oh that is way over ambitious. I would be thrilled if we got 1 codex a month. More like 1 every 2 months, I imagine.

ThePorcupine wrote:
Oh that is way over ambitious. I would be thrilled if we got 1 codex a month. More like 1 every 2 months, I imagine.

they did it for 8th, so we know they can do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
stuff

I have no idea what this is trying to say. Are you implying people SHOULDNT expect tweaks and balance game - wide, or that they SHOULD?

And are you implying pushing 40k to be an esport is bad or good?

I'm saying people coming in with no knowledge of GWs history, combined with the push to make it appear like a hyper competitive esport, leads new players to expect that like said esport games you get frequent balance patches, reworks and they don't radically shake things up for long periods of time.

GW aren't an esport video game, they're historically far from. So all this "omg why isn't x faction top, why is y faction getting new books" etc. Is all perfectly normal stuff for a vet to understand, but someone coming in for an esports experience will be left scratching their head.

It was unacceptable then, its unacceptable now.

It was a minor grievance back then as there wasn't an esports push on an organised tourney circuit. Slow updates etc were the norm so all we get now is an improvement by a large degree, so I'd argue the game as is to any longer standing players who aren't trying push competitive boundaries the current situation probably is more acceptable now.

oh please, there has been a tournament scene for as long as I have played, which was the start of 3e edition (and presumably longer). And there is no 'esports push' no matter how hard competitive haters keep yelling it as a reason to explain away the problems with the game.

bad balance is bad for everyone. I wish you luck playing your casual GSC against your casual friends SM.
Bad balance went a long way to killing off Fantasy back in the days of 7th edition daemon armybook.

 Ordana wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Oh that is way over ambitious. I would be thrilled if we got 1 codex a month. More like 1 every 2 months, I imagine.

they did it for 8th, so we know they can do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
stuff

I have no idea what this is trying to say. Are you implying people SHOULDNT expect tweaks and balance game - wide, or that they SHOULD?

And are you implying pushing 40k to be an esport is bad or good?

I'm saying people coming in with no knowledge of GWs history, combined with the push to make it appear like a hyper competitive esport, leads new players to expect that like said esport games you get frequent balance patches, reworks and they don't radically shake things up for long periods of time.

GW aren't an esport video game, they're historically far from. So all this "omg why isn't x faction top, why is y faction getting new books" etc. Is all perfectly normal stuff for a vet to understand, but someone coming in for an esports experience will be left scratching their head.

It was unacceptable then, its unacceptable now.

It was a minor grievance back then as there wasn't an esports push on an organised tourney circuit. Slow updates etc were the norm so all we get now is an improvement by a large degree, so I'd argue the game as is to any longer standing players who aren't trying push competitive boundaries the current situation probably is more acceptable now.

oh please, there has been a tournament scene for as long as I have played, which was the start of 3e edition (and presumably longer). And there is no 'esports push' no matter how hard competitive haters keep yelling it as a reason to explain away the problems with the game.

bad balance is bad for everyone. I wish you luck playing your casual GSC against your casual friends SM.
Bad balance went a long way to killing off Fantasy back in the days of 7th edition daemon armybook.

Go watch an art of war video who literally have esports sponsors and are pushing to have it in the esports domain. FLG are the same as are many other top end content providers, admittedly mostly in the US.

A lot of people beyond just GW want 40k to be streamable, which I guess makes it an esport. Whether it can be developed to the same degree remains to be seen (intuitively no, but you never know. The fact people watch League is entirely beyond me.)

But I'm not sure what that means on balance. People have been whinging about elements of 40k on forums since they discovered the internet.

I'm really just waiting to see how the Marine/Necron codexes turn out.

In our gaming group, they have played three times Marines vs. Necrons from the new Indomitus box.
And Necrons were without chance.
I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about the Necron codex.

At the beginning of 8th edition the factions that first received the update where the garbage one down to the middle-end of 8th edition. In fact space marines they were bottom tier, and consistently amongst the worst army in the tournament for almost all the 8th edition till the close to the last year of 8th edition when they received the new codexes.

He who laughs last laughs best they said. So it seems that in 9th edition xenos will laugh the best. Join this with the fact that due to covid the beginning of 9th edition warhammer activity is reduced down to the minimum, many tournaments are been delayed, local groups are in stand by, etc... and the result is that look like 9th edition won't be friendly for the space marines.