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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





I was re-reading through the 9th edition rules and faqs, and I couldnt seem to find a clear answer.

Lets say my midnight sorrow solitaire, who piles in 6" and consolidates 9" is able to fight, wipe a unit, and then consolidate into another unit that it did not declare a charge against. Can it then be selected to fight again using the war dancer strategem? Of course after the enemy unit makes its attacks.

My initial thought was no, since it did not declare a charge, but re-thinking it, wouldnt the solitaire be eligible to fight since it is within 1" of an enemy unit?

This could be a big deal with the change to charge rules needing to be able to make it into all declared units.

Maybe I am over thinking it? Thoughts?

   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

On the face of it, not being familiar with the stratagem, this is absolutely possible. Think about it - if you had to have charged in order to be eligible to fight, how would any units ever fight back? Or how would you resolve ongoing combats? Not to mention that Heroic Interventions would be pointless.
If anything in the Stratagem clarifies that the unit must have charged in order to use it, then the answer would obviously be no. I've not seen that wording in other similar "fight twice" Stratagems, though.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

No, your midnight sorrow solitaire can not fight the unit it consolidated into.

Page 22 left column, Select targets heading, 1st graph, 2nd sentence in the PDF vestion of the BRB for reference.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/18 00:04:47


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Twisting Tzeentch Horror






From what I know, the answer here is very unfortunately no. This comes down to the fact that you have to have declared a charge against a unit in order to be allowed to make CC attacks (which means of course you have to be in range of them when you do so)

from the core rules:
Attacks made by models in units that made a
charge move this turn can only target enemy units that their unit
declared a charge against, or that performed a Heroic Intervention
this turn.


unfortunate really, used to be one of the best things about CC for me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/18 00:40:25


 insaniak wrote:

You can choose to focus on the parts of a hobby that make you unhappy, or you can choose to focus on the parts that you enjoy.
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




That makes sense. Thats the reference I was thinking in my head but could not find.

Thanks
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Stratagems give you permission to do things you normally wouldnt be able to do, according to the core rules. The 8th BRB FAQ said this :

Q: When using an ability or Stratagem to fight again in the
Fight phase, or fight ‘as if it were the Fight phase’, are you able to
ignore the rules for who is eligible to fight in the Fight phase? For
example, a unit is not within 1" of any enemy models and did
not charge that turn when I use the Stratagem – can it be selected
to fight again in order to pile into an enemy unit that was more
than 1" away and fight?
A: No.


But, as we play 9th edition now, this is no longer valid. We dont know if a stratagem that lets you fight again enables you to fight a unit you just consolidated into, which wasnt a unit you declared a charge against.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/18 06:44:02


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 p5freak wrote:
We dont know if a stratagem that lets you fight again enables you to fight a unit you just consolidated into, which wasnt a unit you declared a charge against.
Yes, we do. Fighting "again" still follows the rules for the fight phase., and the rules for the fight phase clearly state:
BRB, Page 230 wrote:Attacks made by models in units that made a charge move this turn can only target enemy units that their unit declared a charge against, or that performed a Heroic Intervention this turn.
The Solitaire made a charge move that turn, so may only target attacks against enemy units they declared a charge against.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/18 06:55:26


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
We dont know if a stratagem that lets you fight again enables you to fight a unit you just consolidated into, which wasnt a unit you declared a charge against.
Yes, we do. Fighting "again" still follows the rules for the fight phase., and the rules for the fight phase clearly state:
BRB, Page 230 wrote:Attacks made by models in units that made a charge move this turn can only target enemy units that their unit declared a charge against, or that performed a Heroic Intervention this turn.
The Solitaire made a charge move that turn, so may only target attacks against enemy unit they declared a charge against.


Not good enough. As i already said, stratagems give you permission to do things you normally wouldnt be able to do, according to the core rules. A stratagem can remove the restriction that you can only fight units that you charged. The 8th edition FAQ that i quoted is no longer valid, we play 9th now.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

BCB is correct you can fight twice with the solitaire but it can only declare targets vs things had previously declared in the charge phase if it charged

If it was charged then you can fight twice consolidating into another enemy unit

The stratagem does not override the restriction specifically therefor it still applies
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
Spoiler:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
We dont know if a stratagem that lets you fight again enables you to fight a unit you just consolidated into, which wasnt a unit you declared a charge against.
Yes, we do. Fighting "again" still follows the rules for the fight phase., and the rules for the fight phase clearly state:
BRB, Page 230 wrote:Attacks made by models in units that made a charge move this turn can only target enemy units that their unit declared a charge against, or that performed a Heroic Intervention this turn.
The Solitaire made a charge move that turn, so may only target attacks against enemy unit they declared a charge against.


Not good enough. As i already said, stratagems give you permission to do things you normally wouldnt be able to do, according to the core rules. A stratagem can remove the restriction that you can only fight units that you charged. The 8th edition FAQ that i quoted is no longer valid, we play 9th now.
If a strat explicitly tells you that you can fight a unit you did not charge, then you follow that.

However none that I can think of give that permission.

Therefore you can not fight a unit you did not charge.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

I dont think thats true.

Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place, the players
must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting
with it (see below). An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement
Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same
turn.
If neither player has any eligible units to fight with, the Fight
phase ends.


See the and/or ? Or means only one of both conditions must be true. If a stratagem enables me to fight again, and i am within engagement range, my fight again unit is an eligible unit.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






That just allows charging units to pile in and attack even if they find themselves outside of engagement range when it's time to pick them.

Nothing in the stratagem overrides the targeting restriction.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That just allows charging units to pile in and attack even if they find themselves outside of engagement range when it's time to pick them.


The red sentence defines what units can fight in the fight phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Nothing in the stratagem overrides the targeting restriction.


It would depend on the wording of the stratagem.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/18 07:49:43


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 p5freak wrote:
It would depend on the wording of the stratagem.
Why present an argument if you're not gonna look up the stratagem first? The War Dancers stratagem from the Harlequin codex is the same as just about every other fight again stratagem.
Codex: Harlequins, Page 71 wrote:Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select a HARLEQUINS unit from your army that has already fought this phase. That unit can immediately pile in and fight an additional time.
Nothing in the stratagem overrides the targeting rules of the Fight phase.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
It would depend on the wording of the stratagem.
Why present an argument if you're not gonna look up the stratagem first? The War Dancers stratagem from the Harlequin codex is the same as just about every other fight again stratagem.
Codex: Harlequins, Page 71 wrote:Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select a HARLEQUINS unit from your army that has already fought this phase. That unit can immediately pile in and fight an additional time.
Nothing in the stratagem overrides the targeting rules of the Fight phase.


A unit which is within engagement range of an enemy unit is eligible to fight in the fight phase. If my harlequin fulfills that condition he can fight again.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 p5freak wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
It would depend on the wording of the stratagem.
Why present an argument if you're not gonna look up the stratagem first? The War Dancers stratagem from the Harlequin codex is the same as just about every other fight again stratagem.
Codex: Harlequins, Page 71 wrote:Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select a HARLEQUINS unit from your army that has already fought this phase. That unit can immediately pile in and fight an additional time.
Nothing in the stratagem overrides the targeting rules of the Fight phase.


A unit which is within engagement range of an enemy unit is eligible to fight in the fight phase. If my harlequin fulfills that condition he can fight again.
And no-one said otherwise? What he can't do is target any attacks to units he didn't declare a charge against if he charged that turn.

He can pile in, etc, he just can't direct any attacks to a unit he didn't charge. Just like how it worked in 8th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/18 08:18:54


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 BaconCatBug wrote:

He can pile in, etc, he just can't direct any attacks to a unit he didn't charge. Just like how it worked in 8th.


Not true. The only condition for a unit to be eligible to fight is to be within engagement of enemy units. Thats what the 9th edition rules say. Anything from 8th FAQs doesnt apply. And there are not 9th FAQs saying otherwise.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:

He can pile in, etc, he just can't direct any attacks to a unit he didn't charge. Just like how it worked in 8th.


Not true. The only condition for a unit to be eligible to fight is to be within engagement of enemy units. Thats what the 9th edition rules say. Anything from 8th FAQs doesnt apply. And there are not 9th FAQs saying otherwise.
How are you getting around the restriction laid out in the rules?

This applies:

Attacks made by models in units that made a charge move this turn can only target enemy units that their unit declared a charge against, or that performed a Heroic Intervention this turn.

Nothing over-rides it, so they can pile in, but can not target enemy units unless they declared a charge against them, or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 p5freak wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:

He can pile in, etc, he just can't direct any attacks to a unit he didn't charge. Just like how it worked in 8th.


Not true. The only condition for a unit to be eligible to fight is to be within engagement of enemy units. Thats what the 9th edition rules say. Anything from 8th FAQs doesnt apply. And there are not 9th FAQs saying otherwise.
You are confusing "able to fight" with "able to target attacks". They aren't the same.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
How are you getting around the restriction laid out in the rules?

This applies:

Attacks made by models in units that made a charge move this turn can only target enemy units that their unit declared a charge against, or that performed a Heroic Intervention this turn.

Nothing over-rides it, so they can pile in, but can not target enemy units unless they declared a charge against them, or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn.


Ok, you got me. A unit within engagement range of enemy units is eligible to fight, but cant target enemy units, unless those enemy units were charge targets.
   
Made in at
Not as Good as a Minion





Austria

well, If I get it correctly, you would be able to engage other units but not be able to attack/fight them
so they would still need to fall back in their turn?

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 kodos wrote:
well, If I get it correctly, you would be able to engage other units but not be able to attack/fight them
so they would still need to fall back in their turn?
Correct. The Solitaire in this case can do everything except make their attacks, so they can still pile in/consolidate into another enemy unit to tag them.
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






 kodos wrote:
well, If I get it correctly, you would be able to engage other units but not be able to attack/fight them
so they would still need to fall back in their turn?

Yep. I do this all the time with Berzerkers. Just be aware that the enemies you engage can fight your unit if they haven't fought already, so don't underestimate the damage they could do to you (I also do this all the time with my Berzerkers...).

You can find clarifications for all this on p362 of the Core Book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/18 11:16:33


 
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Argh - well spotted Cheex - I even read that section and somehow managed to miss the line about units that charged that turn.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
 
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