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Greetings everyone,

So, just as the title says, the topic under discussion here is how much of the Custodes statline (both for their normal guys, generals, and elite troops,) comes from their equipment, and how much is training/genetics/other factors?

To put it another way: if a normal Space Marine were to don, say, the normal custodes armor (line troop armor,) what would THAT model's stats likely be? What about a veteran space marine (like a terminator)? What about someone SUPER awesome (like a character) wielding the same equipment? Or, to go another route, what about someone kinda lame, like a normal guardsman? Would they still get t5, s5, and a 2+ save?

(This is mostly just for funsies, but I AM trying to develop a "count as" force of Custodes based exclusively on various non-gw models that resemble space marine terminators, but who have been alive and fighting since the Heresy era, so it kinda helps to have some idea of the lore in this regard as well.)

leerm02 wrote:

Greetings everyone,

So, just as the title says, the topic under discussion here is how much of the Custodes statline (both for their normal guys, generals, and elite troops,) comes from their equipment, and how much is training/genetics/other factors?

To put it another way: if a normal Space Marine were to don, say, the normal custodes armor (line troop armor,) what would THAT model's stats likely be? What about a veteran space marine (like a terminator)? What about someone SUPER awesome (like a character) wielding the same equipment? Or, to go another route, what about someone kinda lame, like a normal guardsman? Would they still get t5, s5, and a 2+ save?

(This is mostly just for funsies, but I AM trying to develop a "count as" force of Custodes based exclusively on various non-gw models that resemble space marine terminators, but who have been alive and fighting since the Heresy era, so it kinda helps to have some idea of the lore in this regard as well.)

Their statline stems from them being the first, and most sophisticated superhumans the emperor has created. Every one of them is a custom job and unique. They are not created using geneseed, but rather using very time consuming genetic alchemy that alters them on a cellular level. They differ from space marines quite a bit.

Their armor is represented in their 2+ armor save that basically the whole army has (save for venatari, but they are not fully armored). Their armor being better than that of a regular space marine is due to custodes armor being manufactured from auramite, which is described in the lore as a very rare golden metal.

A space marine putting on custodes armor wouldn't really work, because every piece of equipment a custodian carries is tailor made for that individual, it would not properly fit anyone else and if my memory serves me right, it could not even be properly activated or operated except for the custodian it was made for. A normal guardsman would never be able to use custodes armor for the same main reason they could not use space marine power armor or terminator armor: for one it would be way too big and he could not properly interface with the armor because he has neither a black carapace like a space marine nor the physique of a custodian. And if they by so obscure circumstance could, they would probably get a 2+ save I guess, but not strength and toughness 5.

Well, the save obviously is. But they had appallingly good stats even when they ran around in nothing but helmets and leather pants. (Rogue Trader)

Their uniforms are traditional but effective, leather breeches and boots with a long black cloak over a naked torso. Their helms are ancient works of art...

. It goes on to mention laser spears, but their equipment list doesn't actually have those. Just sword/knife and 50% chance of one of the following (roll d100)
01-75 lasgun,
76-85 laspistol,
86-90 bolter,
91-95 bolt pistol,
96-97 hand flamer,
98-99 plasma pistol or
00 webber

Basic statline for Custodes was
M:4, WS:5, BS:5, S:4, T:4, W:2, I:5, A:2, Ld:8 (as well as Intelligence, Cool, and Willpower). And marines at this point were toughness 3.

leerm02 wrote:but who have been alive and fighting since the Heresy era, so it kinda helps to have some idea of the lore in this regard as well

Well, the lore in this case is problematic for you.

The guards themselves never leave Earth, and only rarely leave the imperial palace where their duties lie- their place is by the Emperor's side

Wow! I had no idea that Custodes had rules back in Rogue Trader! (I started with 3rd edition way back in the day, but had some little experience with 2nd as well.)

leerm02 wrote:
Wow! I had no idea that Custodes had rules back in Rogue Trader! (I started with 3rd edition way back in the day, but had some little experience with 2nd as well.)

Yep - they even had a model:

custodes would never swap out their war gear no, it's hard carfted for them specificly, and while they do leave Terra it's always for very specific short term deployments. (and until recently it's been done quietly)

So are you trying to bridge tabletop and lore abilities? Despite what the lore says, power armor seems to offer no strength, toughness, WS, BS, etc. bonus on the tabletop. All it affects is the armor save. So if you were to give a guardsman auramite, they would have a 2+ save. Even their invulnerable save comes from the Emperor.

As for their other weapons, there are no hard rules against any model using any other weapon, so in theory, a guardsman could pickup a guardian spear and wield it at S4. If you wanted to lean more towards the lore side, you could say that types of power armor give the necessary strength to use said weapon, but it's never been explicitly stated.

Yeah, I guess that's what I'm wondering right now really. Where does the armor end and the man begin?

I mean, we have seen all kinds of rules regarding the various things that power armor, terminator armor, and the like give to the people wearing them by now.

Does the T5 mean that the armor is tougher, or the man inside it? Does the s5? What about the wounds, are THEY somehow related to the armor?

I'm curious from a standard lore perspective, obviously, but also because I thought it would be cool to have a sort of: "These are space marines that have literally been fighting for 10k years, and over that time have become something greater than they once were."

I figured that Custodes rules would reflect that nicely, but also, well, there are probably a lot of inherent differences in even the most well maintained master-crafted Terminator Armor vs something like Aquillon Terminators and their gear load.

I think things like the bs/ws 2+ would reflect suitably veteran marines just as easily as Custodes, but the t5 and s5 are harder to swallow. Then you have things like the invuln saves, the increased wounds...

Well, at some point you have to wonder what part is equipment and what part is the person.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I've decided to kind of break off a bit of this topic into a new discussion post, basically dealing with my proposed army and all that.

Thanks so much for the replies thus far. Hopefully, I will see some of you on the new topic!

This is admittedly coming from my 2nd/3rd ed days, but I've always seen the armour as representing the Sv+ and invulns only... plus maybe a special rule or two (eg Assassins' synskin).
Of course, that's not been the case lately with things like Centurions and Bikes getting extra wounds out of their equipment... but I still treat those as the exception.

I'm reminded mostly of a certain Mr Stark's proverb to a certain Mr Parker in Spiderman: Homecoming.
"If you're nothing without the suit, you shouldn't have it."
To me, Custodes have got to be getting most of their statline natively before they've even put the armour on.

beast_gts wrote:

leerm02 wrote:
Wow! I had no idea that Custodes had rules back in Rogue Trader! (I started with 3rd edition way back in the day, but had some little experience with 2nd as well.)

Yep - they even had a model:

Spoiler:

that catalogue page brings back a ton of memories! I had forgotten about Custodes actually being a mini.

beast_gts wrote:

leerm02 wrote:
Wow! I had no idea that Custodes had rules back in Rogue Trader! (I started with 3rd edition way back in the day, but had some little experience with 2nd as well.)

Yep - they even had a model:

Spoiler:

Some of those models would fit perfectly well into the game even today (Astropaths, Ratlings)

Also, lol at how the "Adeptus Mechanicus" on the left is clearly a Space Marine.

A good example is aquilon terminator armour - it's basically cataphractii, but custodes are strong enough that it doesn't slow them down...

 Esmer wrote:
Also, lol at how the "Adeptus Mechanicus" on the left is clearly a Space Marine.

The thing to note there is that power armour was a bit more ubiquitous in the range back then, and other factions had some limited access to it. It makes sense that the Mechanicus in particular would too.
There's even a couple of Terminator Inquisitor models that could serve as decent enough Terminator Captain substitutes.

I think it's actually quite hard to say, since GW fluff varies so greatly between authors. In one book, you have a World Eater punch through a Custodian's armor and rip his spine out. In another, there was an impostor Custodes slain by a group of space marines who admitted after the fight that if it had been an actual Custodian, he would have slain the entire squad of marines without issue.