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So with Old Marines getting 2w and 30" bolters I am pretty sure Firstborn's are dying off and I see that as a great thing.

Ever sense Chaos became a faction, there has been little difference between regular Marines and Chaos ones. When I stopped playing after college and when I got back into the game, something changed. No one ever used Chaos Marines. Cultists where just all over the place, because normally chaos marines where just regular marines with the same point cost, but no moral immunity.

So now that there is a fundamental difference between Chaos Marines and Primarus, a difference that actually fits in a lore way, I am in love.

Chaos Marines now are a single unit choice that is very flexible, while Pramarus are a large selection of specialized units. This is a difference that has been needed in 40k for a long long time. It also reinforces the shiny new primaris and the shy new "looking like old" Chaos marine figures.

Its going to be a while before this happens of course. GW is not just going to pull the rug out from under new players they are currently courting. It just is mechanically a chance GW has been looking to take for a long time.

"Flexible" LOL good one

Calling a thread "opinion on Tactical Marine changes" and actually not writing is single word about Tactical Marines is -atleast- entertaining...

Wrong section of the forum, this belongs in 40k general.

Not sure why you’re getting such snark here. I totally agree with you! I was never interested in chaos marines because they were so similar to regular marines, but now that primaris are taking over and chaos marines are getting two wounds, I’m totally on board. I just ordered one of those apocalypse battalion boxes to start a Word Bearers army.

The snark is normal. A lot of Marine players do not realize how good tactical marines are in comparison to Chaos ones. They have the same stat line and are normally the same points, but the tac marine is better. Space Marine player's in general also don't really get other armies, unless they play competitively, because the meta, outside of competitive, is "beat the space marines".

If it dies, as tac marines should, then the stat lines will actually have that difference Imperial player's bitch about wanting but never want to sacrifice anything for.

Statistically with the buff to tac marines, if it carries over to chaos, it brings them very close to intercessors in terms of firepower, missing a single attack (which might even be changed).

This, neck beard's who don't play with any one new opinion aside, gives distinct and viable options for both units. Space Marines will still be mathematically more powerful, by a lot unless they bring back detachments to Chaos, yet the Marine Squad vs Intercessor debate will be a real debate.

So when they hear my opinion is. They should die and I'm glad for it, because it solves a problem between two factions that has been around sense 2nd. They only hear "a faction other than Space Marines might get something that makes them unique, its going to ruin my game".

I don't really follow the "since firstborn get an extra wound and become a real alternative to primaris, they're going to vanish soon" train of thought, to be honest.

If Tac Marines get +1W and Chaos Marines get +1W, that's still leaving CSM as the poor mans Tac Marine.

I think I just missed your point, perhaps.

I don't really follow the "since firstborn get an extra wound and become a real alternative to primaris, they're going to vanish soon" train of thought, to be honest.

If Tac Marines get +1W and Chaos Marines get +1W, that's still leaving CSM as the poor mans Tac Marine.

I think I just missed your point, perhaps.

Agreed. I'm also missing something I think? I also don't get how any of this makes CSM suddenly more attractive? CSM really aren't very flexible. At all. Sure they can be tooled up to do one thing kind of well, but a squad of standard Intercessors does all the things way better, so I really don't get that. Plus, if we don't get the 2 wounds, then what we'll really be is less flexible tacs with one less wound and lower leadership (is the leadership still lower - come to think of it I don't remember). If that's enough to get you excited for them, that's awesome.

If we do get the additional wound, I'm still not 100% sure where that leaves them. They will be (likely) significantly over-costed and my guess is we see a swing back to more cultists because even WITH the extra wound ... man they're bad. To make the extra wound (and the resulting points increase) worth it, they'd need to have a major retooling. Better strats, better abilities, etc. They need improvement across the board imo.

I'm with nekooni in that I feel like I must be misunderstanding your point.

As a player of both for pushing 30 years, this is a gak take m8.

As a player of both for pushing 30 years, this is a gak take m8.

Who's take are you responding to?

 charz wrote:
So with Old Marines getting 2w and 30" bolters I am pretty sure Firstborn's are dying off and I see that as a great thing.

Ever sense Chaos became a faction, there has been little difference between regular Marines and Chaos ones. When I stopped playing after college and when I got back into the game, something changed. No one ever used Chaos Marines. Cultists where just all over the place, because normally chaos marines where just regular marines with the same point cost, but no moral immunity.

So now that there is a fundamental difference between Chaos Marines and Primarus, a difference that actually fits in a lore way, I am in love.

Chaos Marines now are a single unit choice that is very flexible, while Pramarus are a large selection of specialized units. This is a difference that has been needed in 40k for a long long time. It also reinforces the shiny new primaris and the shy new "looking like old" Chaos marine figures.

Its going to be a while before this happens of course. GW is not just going to pull the rug out from under new players they are currently courting. It just is mechanically a chance GW has been looking to take for a long time.

A primaris marine wrote this... ;D

More seriously, I wouldn't mind seeing chaos marines and their loyalist counterparts get differentiated a bit more. There's definitely a way to make them highly similar in a way that brings out the flavor of both and highlights the benefits of both loyalty and chaos. But GW has never done that in the time I've been playing (about 12 years now), so I'm all for trying to find a unique niche for chaos marines rather than leaving them as "tacticals with worse and fewer options."

That said, I'm not sure giving them a couple hand-me-down plasma guns is really the equivalent of primaris units. An intercessor squad with 5 of the same gun may be more specialized than a chaos marine squad with a mix of bolters and a special weapon, but those primaris guns are probably going to do whatever job the primaris were given much more effectively than 4 bolters + 1 plasmagun or what have you. And 9th edition really doesn't make the option of taking a big blob of marines much of an asset in most cases. If we want chaos marines to feel more unique, I think they need more stuff along the lines of Bile's super marines; something that leans into whatever strengths the chaos marines do have.

If primaris > tactical marines and tactical marine = chaos marine, then a primaris-to-chaos marine comparison is not going to be a favorable one.

Tycho wrote:

I don't really follow the "since firstborn get an extra wound and become a real alternative to primaris, they're going to vanish soon" train of thought, to be honest.

If Tac Marines get +1W and Chaos Marines get +1W, that's still leaving CSM as the poor mans Tac Marine.

I think I just missed your point, perhaps.

Agreed. I'm also missing something I think? I also don't get how any of this makes CSM suddenly more attractive? CSM really aren't very flexible. At all. Sure they can be tooled up to do one thing kind of well, but a squad of standard Intercessors does all the things way better, so I really don't get that. Plus, if we don't get the 2 wounds, then what we'll really be is less flexible tacs with one less wound and lower leadership (is the leadership still lower - come to think of it I don't remember). If that's enough to get you excited for them, that's awesome.

Just to point something out here: There's no "If" about CSM getting extra wounds. It's just a "when" as in "When will 9thCSM drop". You WILL get the extra wounds just like Loyalists get in October.
CSM Squads will be better off due to that, 3 points extra for the extra wound still makes them BETTER overall, especially when compared to Cultists that're definitely not getting an extra wound.

I've been in the hobby since 3rd, Its not just the wound change that is making old marines more viable but the new bolter rules as well.

I also am not making a tournament player argument. GW does not make first prints of rules with ITC formats in mind. It adjusts and accepts feedback from them. I also know the company isn't perfect and will screw this up.

I also know that GW is so much better than it was. Rules get updated now, not as fast as I want, but still faster than Warmachine or Bolt Action. Which both haven't been updated in over a year.

So yeah, I want firstborn to be removed from the Marine list and for Chaos tweaked until there is a difference.

I want to use my new marine kits outside of my Noise Marines and Havocs and I think GW wants that as well as to finish off production of a product line they want to replace.

 charz wrote:

So yeah, I want firstborn to be removed . . .

Get.

Out.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 charz wrote:

So yeah, I want firstborn to be removed . . .

Get.

Out.

You have twice as many Codex options as any other faction, your codex options are redundant, the important lore characters are becoming primarus, and outside of a single limited character model there has not been a release of old marines since primarus became a thing. Old style marines also don't fit the "making space marines the good guys" theme.

Not happening now, but writing is pretty visible on the wall. At best for old marines, there is going to be a split in the Imperium and an actual primarus faction will appear as the "good guys" where the old marines keep to the traditional Imperium belief.

Look out for the bikes to prove my point. If chaos gets a new bike sculpt and marines do not, then we are seeing a repeat of the terminators. Both of the old marine and the old chaos terminator kits where about the same age after all.

I honestly want the best case senerio. I think having good guys for once will be good for the setting now that the satire of 40k has been mostly removed (keep hanging in their orks! glad Ms. Thatcher has a new sculpt). Fandom has become more toxic as of late and a lot of young players are turned off by it. My friends love playing Kill Team and the 40k rpg but do not want to go to local game stores because of the horror stories they have both heard and experienced from the community.

^And how is CSM gonna get new recruits? Or are they going to start getting Primaris and do away with CSMs?

I'd like to see a kind of grey hunters/blood claws dynamic in chaos marines troops.
As veterans of the long war, it'd be nice to see them represented as such much more similar to primaris through their consistent mutations/gifts from the gods/experience maybe with newer heretics as a less flexible, cheaper unit. Chaos marines only feel like 'spiky tac marines' it'd be nice if they were a little more spiced up

Granted, this would probably make one better than the other, and they'd never do it, but you know - flavour!

Now I've written this it doesn't sound as good as I thought but hey

Removed - Rule #1 please

 charz wrote:
I want to use my new marine kits outside of my Noise Marines and Havocs and I think GW wants that as well as to finish off production of a product line they want to replace.

So do it. Play your non-Noise Marines & Havocs. What're you waiting for? You could've played them yesterday, last month, sometime in 2019, next week....
What's the worst that'll happen? So you'll lose a few games before you figure out how to win with them again.

 charz wrote:
Cultists where just all over the place, because normally chaos marines where just regular marines with the same point cost, but no moral immunity.

I'm sorry, but I think you've got this the wrong way around - Chaos Space Marines are the ones who are usually immune to moral tests. I mean, look at how they are described as acting in the background material.

Also, aren't they a little cheaper than Tacs at present, or did that change in MFM20?

 charz wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 charz wrote:

So yeah, I want firstborn to be removed . . .

Get.

Out.

You have twice as many Codex options as any other faction, your codex options are redundant, the important lore characters are becoming primarus, and outside of a single limited character model there has not been a release of old marines since primarus became a thing. Old style marines also don't fit the "making space marines the good guys" theme.

Not happening now, but writing is pretty visible on the wall. At best for old marines, there is going to be a split in the Imperium and an actual primarus faction will appear as the "good guys" where the old marines keep to the traditional Imperium belief.

Look out for the bikes to prove my point. If chaos gets a new bike sculpt and marines do not, then we are seeing a repeat of the terminators. Both of the old marine and the old chaos terminator kits where about the same age after all.

I honestly want the best case senerio. I think having good guys for once will be good for the setting now that the satire of 40k has been mostly removed (keep hanging in their orks! glad Ms. Thatcher has a new sculpt). Fandom has become more toxic as of late and a lot of young players are turned off by it. My friends love playing Kill Team and the 40k rpg but do not want to go to local game stores because of the horror stories they have both heard and experienced from the community.

Explain to me how having good guys will be good for the setting. As I understand it, toxicity in the community arises where people start thinking that the Imperium is unironically good... If anything, 40k needs a return to that satire - and better writing and presentation of marines so that people don't come away thinking of them as heroic Ubermensch warriors, but instead as fanatical zealots of a bloodthirsty regime.

You're 100% right that space marines have way too many Codex options and the bloat is unreal, but what about players like me who refuse to use primaris? I don't own a single primaris marine in my Blood Angels army, and have no intention of getting any. Should I shelve my army? Should I proxy everything as their rough primaris equivalents when you consign all firstborn to legends?

I fully realise that GW won't be making any more firstborn kits, and I'm ok with that. I recognise that primaris is the future, but I don't want to buy my army all over again in order to play.

As for CSM, my suggestion to make them unique would simply be to make them chosen. Give them 2W, +1A, the option to take a chainsword and keep their bolter, and chosen options for special and heavy weapons. This would give them much more flexibility in contrast to the primaris specialisation.

 Drakeslayer wrote:


You're 100% right that space marines have way too many Codex options and the bloat is unreal, but what about players like me who refuse to use primaris? I don't own a single primaris marine in my Blood Angels army, and have no intention of getting any. Should I shelve my army? Should I proxy everything as their rough primaris equivalents when you consign all firstborn to legends?

I fully realise that GW won't be making any more firstborn kits, and I'm ok with that. I recognise that primaris is the future, but I don't want to buy my army all over again in order to play.

I'm in the same boat. Being forced to re-buy an entire army is silly, I'd start collecting and playing a complete different faction if my old SW become obsolete. Or I'd just stick with orks.

New necrons didn't invalidate old ones, just like new sisters. Why is ok for SM armies to completely phased out all the old line just because primaris exist? If old marines become history GW will launch SM 3.0 as soon as possible. The fact that SM have a thousand of units to choose from is irrelevant, they'll always have that many, regardless of old marines being part of the catalogue or not.

Ah, and imperium dudes, including the new primaris, don't look as the good guys. Not in the slightest.

I sincerly doubt GW plans to phase out First Born Marines anytime soon. if they are planning it, it's part of a 10-20 year plan I suspect. By time Primaris completely replace first born, the majority of the player base won't care because other then a few old grognards who haven't bought anything in a decade, most marine armies are largely primaris anyway

 Drakeslayer wrote:

 charz wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 charz wrote:

So yeah, I want firstborn to be removed . . .

Get.

Out.

You have twice as many Codex options as any other faction, your codex options are redundant, the important lore characters are becoming primarus, and outside of a single limited character model there has not been a release of old marines since primarus became a thing. Old style marines also don't fit the "making space marines the good guys" theme.

Not happening now, but writing is pretty visible on the wall. At best for old marines, there is going to be a split in the Imperium and an actual primarus faction will appear as the "good guys" where the old marines keep to the traditional Imperium belief.

Look out for the bikes to prove my point. If chaos gets a new bike sculpt and marines do not, then we are seeing a repeat of the terminators. Both of the old marine and the old chaos terminator kits where about the same age after all.

I honestly want the best case senerio. I think having good guys for once will be good for the setting now that the satire of 40k has been mostly removed (keep hanging in their orks! glad Ms. Thatcher has a new sculpt). Fandom has become more toxic as of late and a lot of young players are turned off by it. My friends love playing Kill Team and the 40k rpg but do not want to go to local game stores because of the horror stories they have both heard and experienced from the community.

Explain to me how having good guys will be good for the setting. As I understand it, toxicity in the community arises where people start thinking that the Imperium is unironically good... If anything, 40k needs a return to that satire - and better writing and presentation of marines so that people don't come away thinking of them as heroic Ubermensch warriors, but instead as fanatical zealots of a bloodthirsty regime.

You're 100% right that space marines have way too many Codex options and the bloat is unreal, but what about players like me who refuse to use primaris? I don't own a single primaris marine in my Blood Angels army, and have no intention of getting any. Should I shelve my army? Should I proxy everything as their rough primaris equivalents when you consign all firstborn to legends?

I fully realise that GW won't be making any more firstborn kits, and I'm ok with that. I recognise that primaris is the future, but I don't want to buy my army all over again in order to play.

As for CSM, my suggestion to make them unique would simply be to make them chosen. Give them 2W, +1A, the option to take a chainsword and keep their bolter, and chosen options for special and heavy weapons. This would give them much more flexibility in contrast to the primaris specialisation.

These are valid things, and also is why I want a split. Have the Primaris be what the Tau where to be in 3rd. Nieve, small, popular, and "good". Having that faction be what the new players focus on who are basically a drop in the bucket in the larger world, is already happening in Guilliman's head in the lore, so it has roots. It would let the old marines stay valid, offer a split in the most bloated faction, and give new and younger players, who don't quite grasp satire yet (12 year olds are on average unable to understand satire fully), a POV into just how bad things are.

I don't want GW to legends things, even the Chaplin Dreadnought not getting reworked and re-released made me honestly sad, I just don't want to have to directly compete with something GW is trying to bury in a bloated space marine dex. I've seen people say "well play with them anyways" I do play with them on fun games and they just run around and claim objectives, and die. Its fine, but I don't really notice them except for three free cp. That's not fun. I'm not looking to be the best, but having my genetically engineered supermen do little but cheer my Obliterator's on in the 2nd turn and sit on an objective till they blow up, isn't very fun.

 charz wrote:

These are valid things, and also is why I want a split. Have the Primaris be what the Tau where to be in 3rd. Nieve, small, popular, and "good". Having that faction be what the new players focus on who are basically a drop in the bucket in the larger world, is already happening in Guilliman's head in the lore, so it has roots. It would let the old marines stay valid, offer a split in the most bloated faction, and give new and younger players, who don't quite grasp satire yet (12 year olds are on average unable to understand satire fully), a POV into just how bad things are.

I don't want GW to legends things, even the Chaplin Dreadnought not getting reworked and re-released made me honestly sad, I just don't want to have to directly compete with something GW is trying to bury in a bloated space marine dex. I've seen people say "well play with them anyways" I do play with them on fun games and they just run around and claim objectives, and die. Its fine, but I don't really notice them except for three free cp. That's not fun. I'm not looking to be the best, but having my genetically engineered supermen do little but cheer my Obliterator's on in the 2nd turn and sit on an objective till they blow up, isn't very fun.

I still don't see how any of that helps your CSM Squads at all. Drakeslayers suggestion would help, but whatever you're trying to say won't. Removing Firstborn won't fix your CSM Squads, splitting C:SM into Primaris and Firstborn won't fix your CSM Squads, whether or not SM players understand satire or not won't affect your CSM Squads.

You literally said you want Firstborn to be removed from the game, and yet you're saying you "don't want GW to legends things".

I also don't get where you're getting the "primaris are good guys" vibe from, to be honest. In quite some cases the Primaris guys ARE the Firstborn guys, after some "surgery". Indoctrination etc is still happening to ensure Marines remain useful tools to the Imperium, as far as I know.

nekooni wrote:

 charz wrote:

These are valid things, and also is why I want a split. Have the Primaris be what the Tau where to be in 3rd. Nieve, small, popular, and "good". Having that faction be what the new players focus on who are basically a drop in the bucket in the larger world, is already happening in Guilliman's head in the lore, so it has roots. It would let the old marines stay valid, offer a split in the most bloated faction, and give new and younger players, who don't quite grasp satire yet (12 year olds are on average unable to understand satire fully), a POV into just how bad things are.

I don't want GW to legends things, even the Chaplin Dreadnought not getting reworked and re-released made me honestly sad, I just don't want to have to directly compete with something GW is trying to bury in a bloated space marine dex. I've seen people say "well play with them anyways" I do play with them on fun games and they just run around and claim objectives, and die. Its fine, but I don't really notice them except for three free cp. That's not fun. I'm not looking to be the best, but having my genetically engineered supermen do little but cheer my Obliterator's on in the 2nd turn and sit on an objective till they blow up, isn't very fun.

I still don't see how any of that helps your CSM Squads at all. Drakeslayers suggestion would help, but whatever you're trying to say won't. Removing Firstborn won't fix your CSM Squads, splitting C:SM into Primaris and Firstborn won't fix your CSM Squads, whether or not SM players understand satire or not won't affect your CSM Squads.

You literally said you want Firstborn to be removed from the game, and yet you're saying you "don't want GW to legends things".

I also don't get where you're getting the "primaris are good guys" vibe from, to be honest. In quite some cases the Primaris guys ARE the Firstborn guys, after some "surgery". Indoctrination etc is still happening to ensure Marines remain useful tools to the Imperium, as far as I know.

You don't see how keeping old Marines and Primaris not on the same Codex does not help CSM? Do you not know how game design even works?

When I say I want first born removed I do if that helps limit marine bloat. If splitting codexes work yes.

The satire thing is more a 40k thing at large. You don't live in the US its a really different game field, personal anger melting in.

 charz wrote:

You don't see how keeping old Marines and Primaris not on the same Codex does not help CSM? Do you not know how game design even works?

I really don't know how that helps them, as I've said. Why don't you explain the relationship there instead of questioning my understanding of game design? Even assuming that I'm just too stupid to simply jump to the same conclusion that you apparently reached it would be useful for you to explain how to get there.

When I say I want first born removed I do if that helps limit marine bloat. If splitting codexes work yes.

Of course it would help "marine bloat" if you remove more than half the datasheets from their Codex. But it's not going to help CSM Squads, as they still have to compete with Cultists internally and all the other units externally, and it's a dick move to anyone still playing Firstborn. Simply removing options (=datasheets) will make balance easier, but a) we know GW is able to feth that up just as well, and b) you're invalidating entire collections, leaving quite some people without proper armies - and all of that for what? Just so SM players don't have more options than you? That just seems petty, to be honest

And you've again not answered the actual question which was "how can you say you don't want things to be removed from the game while you're also advocating for Firstborn to be removed".

The satire thing is more a 40k thing at large. You don't live in the US its a really different game field, personal anger melting in.

Yes, and you're bringing it into a discussion about rule changes and balance, aren't you? Which is why I asked you to explain that. If people you play 40k with have anger issues playing 40k, you should find new people to play with and not blame the game or background for that. And again you completely dodged the actual question of "where are you getting the "primaris are good guys" vibe from?".

@charz

I really don’t understand your argument here at all. Maybe restating it would help?

Yeah, the "primaris are good guys" mantra is actually hilarious. The empire dudes in sci-fi universes are tipycally the bad guys, not the good ones.

Just to point something out here: There's no "If" about CSM getting extra wounds. It's just a "when" as in "When will 9thCSM drop". You WILL get the extra wounds just like Loyalists get in October.
CSM Squads will be better off due to that, 3 points extra for the extra wound still makes them BETTER overall, especially when compared to Cultists that're definitely not getting an extra wound.

I think that's a lot of wishful thinking. Yes, it does indeed look like they are getting that wound, but the player base has been building to fight Primaris for years now, so CSM getting an extra wound means ... generally nothing. Nothing at all except that they got more expensive. On units like Plague Marines it's a different story, but I actually think the second wound has the potential to make regular CSM WORSE. We were already geared up to fight 2w Primaris which is a much scarier prospect than 2w CSM. We don't (and likely won't) have the strategem or aura support marines have. Giving us 2 wounds just makes the CSM a bigger points sink then they already were IMO.

I would have rather seen them go down in points and just stay otherwise the same.

Tycho wrote:

Just to point something out here: There's no "If" about CSM getting extra wounds. It's just a "when" as in "When will 9thCSM drop". You WILL get the extra wounds just like Loyalists get in October.
CSM Squads will be better off due to that, 3 points extra for the extra wound still makes them BETTER overall, especially when compared to Cultists that're definitely not getting an extra wound.

I think that's a lot of wishful thinking. Yes, it does indeed look like they are getting that wound, but the player base has been building to fight Primaris for years now, so CSM getting an extra wound means ... generally nothing. Nothing at all except that they got more expensive. On units like Plague Marines it's a different story, but I actually think the second wound has the potential to make regular CSM WORSE. We were already geared up to fight 2w Primaris which is a much scarier prospect than 2w CSM. We don't (and likely won't) have the strategem or aura support marines have. Giving us 2 wounds just makes the CSM a bigger points sink then they already were IMO.

I would have rather seen them go down in points and just stay otherwise the same.

Doctrines and better bolters. Those are what comparatively makes CSM worse. If priced correctly at 16 ppm i don't see an issue for CSM, and that is competitivly priced torwards intercissors...