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Doctrines and better bolters. Those are what comparatively makes CSM worse. If priced correctly at 16 ppm i don't see an issue for CSM, and that is competitivly priced torwards intercissors...

Doctrines, bolters, better auras, and better strats. You can't leave out some of the major components. Loyalists have a lot tools to make them more survivable in almost every situation which then helps those 2 wounds be more valuable. This is a thing standard CSM lack completely. You are already not seeing them at the current points level. I really don't think the second wound on a unit with no real way to leverage that wound, in a meta where everyone is geared up to fight a BETTER unit that also has 2w, and on a unit that was over-costed to start with is going to be much of a boon. We shall see I suppose. It would be good to see them on the table more.

Tycho wrote:

Just to point something out here: There's no "If" about CSM getting extra wounds. It's just a "when" as in "When will 9thCSM drop". You WILL get the extra wounds just like Loyalists get in October.
CSM Squads will be better off due to that, 3 points extra for the extra wound still makes them BETTER overall, especially when compared to Cultists that're definitely not getting an extra wound.

I think that's a lot of wishful thinking. Yes, it does indeed look like they are getting that wound, but the player base has been building to fight Primaris for years now, so CSM getting an extra wound means ... generally nothing. Nothing at all except that they got more expensive. On units like Plague Marines it's a different story, but I actually think the second wound has the potential to make regular CSM WORSE. We were already geared up to fight 2w Primaris which is a much scarier prospect than 2w CSM. We don't (and likely won't) have the strategem or aura support marines have. Giving us 2 wounds just makes the CSM a bigger points sink then they already were IMO.

I would have rather seen them go down in points and just stay otherwise the same.

Whats "a lot of wishful thinking" though? All I said is that they WILL get the extra wound. We know that for a fact. No if or maybe or looks like. Fact.

That extra wound will make them more durable and it will differentiate them from cultists. It will come with a price increase, but a minor one. That will make them better than where they're at right now, which is something very different from "equal to primaris" or "competition material".

You're acting as if everyone is building their lists exclusively by spamming D2 weapons and that's not even remotely true from my experience. That extra wound will help you, and it will help my tacticals, too. I've used tacticals and intercessors for the entire past edition and I've used both this edition, too, and the extra wound intercessors have makes a big difference, so I'm looking forward to the extra wound.

@nekooni -

The wishful thinking part was in reference to you mentioning them being "better" for getting the two wounds. I just don't think it's going to help them all that much unless they get more ways to leverage those wounds. Especially since they're starting from an over-costed standpoint.

Tycho wrote:
@nekooni -

The wishful thinking part was in reference to you mentioning them being "better" for getting the two wounds. I just don't think it's going to help them all that much unless they get more ways to leverage those wounds. Especially since they're starting from an over-costed standpoint.

And they are getting better, in my opinion. From where they are right now, it's an improvement. Just like it will be an improvement for Tactical Marines - maybe(!) not to the same degree though, but we don't know which Stratagems will even be available come October.

Baby steps are still steps.

nekooni wrote:

Tycho wrote:
@nekooni -

The wishful thinking part was in reference to you mentioning them being "better" for getting the two wounds. I just don't think it's going to help them all that much unless they get more ways to leverage those wounds. Especially since they're starting from an over-costed standpoint.

And they are getting better, in my opinion. From where they are right now, it's an improvement. Just like it will be an improvement for Tactical Marines - maybe(!) not to the same degree though, but we don't know which Stratagems will even be available come October.

Baby steps are still steps.

When the meta revolves around primaris, and it still does, then how the feth are you expecting worse units getting an added wound perform in such a meta?

It's like with mechanized guard formations or Daemonengines lists, both archetypes don't work because the meta has to deal with knights, making it trivially easy to just flatten these.

Not Online!!! wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Tycho wrote:
@nekooni -

The wishful thinking part was in reference to you mentioning them being "better" for getting the two wounds. I just don't think it's going to help them all that much unless they get more ways to leverage those wounds. Especially since they're starting from an over-costed standpoint.

And they are getting better, in my opinion. From where they are right now, it's an improvement. Just like it will be an improvement for Tactical Marines - maybe(!) not to the same degree though, but we don't know which Stratagems will even be available come October.

Baby steps are still steps.

When the meta revolves around primaris, and it still does, then how the feth are you expecting worse units getting an added wound perform in such a meta?

It's like with mechanized guard formations or Daemonengines lists, both archetypes don't work because the meta has to deal with knights, making it trivially easy to just flatten these.

knights havent been meta since months before the whole covid thing happened.

Demon engines are competitive now because they can actually move and shoot with reasonable BS in 9th.

Not Online!!! wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Tycho wrote:
@nekooni -

The wishful thinking part was in reference to you mentioning them being "better" for getting the two wounds. I just don't think it's going to help them all that much unless they get more ways to leverage those wounds. Especially since they're starting from an over-costed standpoint.

And they are getting better, in my opinion. From where they are right now, it's an improvement. Just like it will be an improvement for Tactical Marines - maybe(!) not to the same degree though, but we don't know which Stratagems will even be available come October.

Baby steps are still steps.

When the meta revolves around primaris, and it still does, then how the feth are you expecting worse units getting an added wound perform in such a meta?

It's like with mechanized guard formations or Daemonengines lists, both archetypes don't work because the meta has to deal with knights, making it trivially easy to just flatten these.

I really don't understand what's so hard to understand about me saying "they're better that before, even if only slighty." . I've repeatedly said that I don't claim that they're turning into a competitive option, didn't I?
On top of that we don't know if the meta will revolve around Primaris marines (or Marine infantry in general) in October. From what I've encountered here, there's no "Intercessor meta", but I'll grant you that this is just my very localized personal experience. Looking at lists from tournaments doesn't show Intercessor spam from what I can tell. And most Primaris weapons (not just Intercessors) aren't Flat 2 damage either, so at the very least you'll be better off vs Primaris, right? Twice as resilient vs Intercessors, Onslaught cannons and so on that currently tear apart CSM Squads with ease.

But let me reiterate, just to be sure this got across: I am not saying CSM Squads will become a competitive option simply by receiving another wound for 3pts.

Tycho wrote:

Just to point something out here: There's no "If" about CSM getting extra wounds. It's just a "when" as in "When will 9thCSM drop". You WILL get the extra wounds just like Loyalists get in October.
CSM Squads will be better off due to that, 3 points extra for the extra wound still makes them BETTER overall, especially when compared to Cultists that're definitely not getting an extra wound.

I think that's a lot of wishful thinking. Yes, it does indeed look like they are getting that wound, but the player base has been building to fight Primaris for years now, so CSM getting an extra wound means ... generally nothing. Nothing at all except that they got more expensive. On units like Plague Marines it's a different story, but I actually think the second wound has the potential to make regular CSM WORSE. We were already geared up to fight 2w Primaris which is a much scarier prospect than 2w CSM. We don't (and likely won't) have the strategem or aura support marines have. Giving us 2 wounds just makes the CSM a bigger points sink then they already were IMO.

I would have rather seen them go down in points and just stay otherwise the same.

Since a lot of Primaris models carry weapons that do 1D, having 2W will be plenty beneficial.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Tycho wrote:
@nekooni -

The wishful thinking part was in reference to you mentioning them being "better" for getting the two wounds. I just don't think it's going to help them all that much unless they get more ways to leverage those wounds. Especially since they're starting from an over-costed standpoint.

And they are getting better, in my opinion. From where they are right now, it's an improvement. Just like it will be an improvement for Tactical Marines - maybe(!) not to the same degree though, but we don't know which Stratagems will even be available come October.

Baby steps are still steps.

When the meta revolves around primaris, and it still does, then how the feth are you expecting worse units getting an added wound perform in such a meta?

It's like with mechanized guard formations or Daemonengines lists, both archetypes don't work because the meta has to deal with knights, making it trivially easy to just flatten these.

knights havent been meta since months before the whole covid thing happened.

Demon engines are competitive now because they can actually move and shoot with reasonable BS in 9th.

then you haven't paid attention to what i wrote, the simple fact that they exist skews army lists torwards heavy AT, and i fail to see how CSM daemonengines will work quite honestly.

Since a lot of Primaris models carry weapons that do 1D, having 2W will be plenty beneficial.

Currently, when a CSM squad is killed, it's typically over-killed. I think the extra wound is only going to make them "just killed" instead of "over-killed".

We'll see though. Hopefully they get better tools to go with the wounds. Currently, the extra wound is just extra points. 2 wounds on a unit capable of receiving Transhuman Physiology, or Disgustingly Resilient, etc etc is a big deal. 2 wounds on a model with little to no meaningful special rules, that is already over-costed and only getting more expensive, and that exists in a meta where the primary threat is 2w armies that literally do everything better than they do - is just making CSM needlessly more expensive IMO.

But yeah, if the book comes out and we get some worthwhile strats- that's a different story.

Tycho wrote:

Since a lot of Primaris models carry weapons that do 1D, having 2W will be plenty beneficial.

Currently, when a CSM squad is killed, it's typically over-killed. I think the extra wound is only going to make them "just killed" instead of "over-killed".

We'll see though. Hopefully they get better tools to go with the wounds. Currently, the extra wound is just extra points. 2 wounds on a unit capable of receiving Transhuman Physiology, or Disgustingly Resilient, etc etc is a big deal. 2 wounds on a model with little to no meaningful special rules, that is already over-costed and only getting more expensive, and that exists in a meta where the primary threat is 2w armies that literally do everything better than they do - is just making CSM needlessly more expensive IMO.

But yeah, if the book comes out and we get some worthwhile strats- that's a different story.

And the CSM squad is usually overkilled by D1 weapons, against which they're now twice as resilient.
If they're committing D2 weapons, those weapons aren't going into your other stuff anymore.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

Tycho wrote:

Just to point something out here: There's no "If" about CSM getting extra wounds. It's just a "when" as in "When will 9thCSM drop". You WILL get the extra wounds just like Loyalists get in October.
CSM Squads will be better off due to that, 3 points extra for the extra wound still makes them BETTER overall, especially when compared to Cultists that're definitely not getting an extra wound.

I think that's a lot of wishful thinking. Yes, it does indeed look like they are getting that wound, but the player base has been building to fight Primaris for years now, so CSM getting an extra wound means ... generally nothing. Nothing at all except that they got more expensive. On units like Plague Marines it's a different story, but I actually think the second wound has the potential to make regular CSM WORSE. We were already geared up to fight 2w Primaris which is a much scarier prospect than 2w CSM. We don't (and likely won't) have the strategem or aura support marines have. Giving us 2 wounds just makes the CSM a bigger points sink then they already were IMO.

I would have rather seen them go down in points and just stay otherwise the same.

Since a lot of Primaris models carry weapons that do 1D, having 2W will be plenty beneficial.

Agreed, it will be good for csm. It will be even better for our other infantry. 2W for warp talons and possessed with their 5++ will be good, and 2W Chosen with their increased weapon options and added cc weapons will be excellent against intercessors and their like. Now if they'd only make them troops....

Intercessors were bad before they got their triple-layered buffs that made them good. I don't see CSM with 2W being any better than CSM with 1W. They'll still have zero punch and still be easily picked up by anything with decent firepower.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Intercessors were bad before they got their triple-layered buffs that made them good. I don't see CSM with 2W being any better than CSM with 1W. They'll still have zero punch and still be easily picked up by anything with decent firepower.

No, they won't be hitting any harder, but it will take twice the number of 1D wounds to kill them, or you will need to use 2D weapons to remove them, which you may need to do if they're holding an objective. That means less of those 2D weapons aiming at my bigger, nastier units. That's target saturation, and it's a good thing.