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2020/08/25 05:34:00
Subject: Re:Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
Fabius Bile is my favorite character in all of the lore so of course I also jumped on the opportunity to play this new faction. My other main CSM army is Word Bearers, which is important because of what my opinion is...
Creations of Bile is an army that roots its identity in the worst aspects of the CSM list that other factions can do better. Possessed bombs are a good move for Creations of Bile....but Word Bearers do it better. You can do some nasty stuff with Berserkers...but World Eaters do it better. What you gain from Creations of Bile is a lot less than what you gain from other Legions, which is not to say they are bad but they are just not that great.
Fabius Bile is a good embodiment of what is wrong with the Creations of Bile list, okay at a couple of things but not really great at anything with a gimmick that is forgettable. I will continue to play the army because I of course love that I get to play something that feels close to how Fabius Bile operates in then fluff but I don't really expect to be very competitive with the list.
Possessed bombs are a bit of a dead concept. M8 possessed with +1 run/charge and charge after running have a considerable reach. Throw T5 on them and it will take a while to make them go away. Make them T6 with your own mini-transhuman when HBs come their way.
Yes but to get them to advance and charge you are using a stratagem and even when they get there you are looking at a decent melee unit at best. You know who does this better? Word Bearers. +1D is better than anything else Creations of Bile can give you while still not accounting for the other things Word Bearers grants your Possessed. Don't get me wrong, I run Possessed with Creations of Bile when I do play them but the questions isn't "Can Creations of Bile function?" it is "Are they any good?"
Also I am curious how you are getting possessed to T6?
2020/08/25 05:36:49
Subject: Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
mrFickle wrote:
Has anyone actually used this army?
Doubtful.
Right here. I don't know the exact amount of games played - more than 5 but less than 10 I would say. Most of those games were in 8th with just a few in 9th. They were tested in a competitive environment so I feel I can confidently say they aren't nearly as bad as everyone says they are, but yeah, by themselves, they struggle.
The issue is that the buffs and strats mostly center around buffing infantry. Which is a pretty glaring weak spot for Chaos. The advantage is that they actually have some really good strats. They're useful right when you need them to be and there are very few true "losers" where you find yourself never using them. Even with the strats though, there aren't any wombo-combos, and you aren't pulling off anything like what some of the other armies can do.
It's a great army for making Berzerkers useful, or for adding to the possessed bomb, but honestly, I don't think I'd take them to a tournament and expect to do well for the most part. As others have said, the other factions are generally better. If you do try to take them, I would recommend taking two detachments. One for Creations of Bile, and another one to make up for their shortcomings. Something like Iron Warriors w/some good Demon Engines/Oblits, etc.
That said, they're a ton of fun in a less competitive environment. The rules feel "right" and they're very enjoyable to play. They just aren't overly strong.
Fabius Bile is my favorite character in all of the lore so of course I also jumped on the opportunity to play this new faction. My other main CSM army is Word Bearers, which is important because of what my opinion is...
Creations of Bile is an army that roots its identity in the worst aspects of the CSM list that other factions can do better. Possessed bombs are a good move for Creations of Bile....but Word Bearers do it better. You can do some nasty stuff with Berserkers...but World Eaters do it better. What you gain from Creations of Bile is a lot less than what you gain from other Legions, which is not to say they are bad but they are just not that great.
Fabius Bile is a good embodiment of what is wrong with the Creations of Bile list, okay at a couple of things but not really great at anything with a gimmick that is forgettable. I will continue to play the army because I of course love that I get to play something that feels close to how Fabius Bile operates in then fluff but I don't really expect to be very competitive with the list.
Have you tried bikers? I feel like lots of bikers would work well.
What’s the concept of the possessed bomb? Do you just mean lots of them rushing the enemy?
Lots of bikers just wouldn't make a difference, not like Chaos Bikes were breaking the game in the first place. The buffs and stratagems for Creations of Bile only work on infantry so really I see no reason to take a lot of bikes.
Possessed bombs are just blobs of possessed stacked with buffs in order to get them to a dangerous level which is exactly why you would rather run Word Bearers because they are worlds better at it.
Characters, infantry (excluding cultists), hellbrute and biker units all get the creations of bile trait
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marin wrote: Art of War down under have podcast episode with one of the best Australian player talking about the creation of Bile.
Where do I find this podcast
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/25 08:29:50
2020/08/25 08:38:54
Subject: Re:Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
mrFickle wrote:
Has anyone actually used this army?
Doubtful.
Right here. I don't know the exact amount of games played - more than 5 but less than 10 I would say. Most of those games were in 8th with just a few in 9th. They were tested in a competitive environment so I feel I can confidently say they aren't nearly as bad as everyone says they are, but yeah, by themselves, they struggle.
The issue is that the buffs and strats mostly center around buffing infantry. Which is a pretty glaring weak spot for Chaos. The advantage is that they actually have some really good strats. They're useful right when you need them to be and there are very few true "losers" where you find yourself never using them. Even with the strats though, there aren't any wombo-combos, and you aren't pulling off anything like what some of the other armies can do.
It's a great army for making Berzerkers useful, or for adding to the possessed bomb, but honestly, I don't think I'd take them to a tournament and expect to do well for the most part. As others have said, the other factions are generally better. If you do try to take them, I would recommend taking two detachments. One for Creations of Bile, and another one to make up for their shortcomings. Something like Iron Warriors w/some good Demon Engines/Oblits, etc.
That said, they're a ton of fun in a less competitive environment. The rules feel "right" and they're very enjoyable to play. They just aren't overly strong.
Fabius Bile is my favorite character in all of the lore so of course I also jumped on the opportunity to play this new faction. My other main CSM army is Word Bearers, which is important because of what my opinion is...
Creations of Bile is an army that roots its identity in the worst aspects of the CSM list that other factions can do better. Possessed bombs are a good move for Creations of Bile....but Word Bearers do it better. You can do some nasty stuff with Berserkers...but World Eaters do it better. What you gain from Creations of Bile is a lot less than what you gain from other Legions, which is not to say they are bad but they are just not that great.
Fabius Bile is a good embodiment of what is wrong with the Creations of Bile list, okay at a couple of things but not really great at anything with a gimmick that is forgettable. I will continue to play the army because I of course love that I get to play something that feels close to how Fabius Bile operates in then fluff but I don't really expect to be very competitive with the list.
Have you tried bikers? I feel like lots of bikers would work well.
What’s the concept of the possessed bomb? Do you just mean lots of them rushing the enemy?
Lots of bikers just wouldn't make a difference, not like Chaos Bikes were breaking the game in the first place. The buffs and stratagems for Creations of Bile only work on infantry so really I see no reason to take a lot of bikes.
Possessed bombs are just blobs of possessed stacked with buffs in order to get them to a dangerous level which is exactly why you would rather run Word Bearers because they are worlds better at it.
Characters, infantry (excluding cultists), hellbrute and biker units all get the creations of bile trait
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marin wrote: Art of War down under have podcast episode with one of the best Australian player talking about the creation of Bile.
Where do I find this podcast
I think you can find it in every podcast platform, its part of the Frontline Gaming Network.
mrFickle wrote:
Has anyone actually used this army?
Doubtful.
Right here. I don't know the exact amount of games played - more than 5 but less than 10 I would say. Most of those games were in 8th with just a few in 9th. They were tested in a competitive environment so I feel I can confidently say they aren't nearly as bad as everyone says they are, but yeah, by themselves, they struggle.
The issue is that the buffs and strats mostly center around buffing infantry. Which is a pretty glaring weak spot for Chaos. The advantage is that they actually have some really good strats. They're useful right when you need them to be and there are very few true "losers" where you find yourself never using them. Even with the strats though, there aren't any wombo-combos, and you aren't pulling off anything like what some of the other armies can do.
It's a great army for making Berzerkers useful, or for adding to the possessed bomb, but honestly, I don't think I'd take them to a tournament and expect to do well for the most part. As others have said, the other factions are generally better. If you do try to take them, I would recommend taking two detachments. One for Creations of Bile, and another one to make up for their shortcomings. Something like Iron Warriors w/some good Demon Engines/Oblits, etc.
That said, they're a ton of fun in a less competitive environment. The rules feel "right" and they're very enjoyable to play. They just aren't overly strong.
Fabius Bile is my favorite character in all of the lore so of course I also jumped on the opportunity to play this new faction. My other main CSM army is Word Bearers, which is important because of what my opinion is...
Creations of Bile is an army that roots its identity in the worst aspects of the CSM list that other factions can do better. Possessed bombs are a good move for Creations of Bile....but Word Bearers do it better. You can do some nasty stuff with Berserkers...but World Eaters do it better. What you gain from Creations of Bile is a lot less than what you gain from other Legions, which is not to say they are bad but they are just not that great.
Fabius Bile is a good embodiment of what is wrong with the Creations of Bile list, okay at a couple of things but not really great at anything with a gimmick that is forgettable. I will continue to play the army because I of course love that I get to play something that feels close to how Fabius Bile operates in then fluff but I don't really expect to be very competitive with the list.
Have you tried bikers? I feel like lots of bikers would work well.
What’s the concept of the possessed bomb? Do you just mean lots of them rushing the enemy?
Lots of bikers just wouldn't make a difference, not like Chaos Bikes were breaking the game in the first place. The buffs and stratagems for Creations of Bile only work on infantry so really I see no reason to take a lot of bikes.
Possessed bombs are just blobs of possessed stacked with buffs in order to get them to a dangerous level which is exactly why you would rather run Word Bearers because they are worlds better at it.
Characters, infantry (excluding cultists), hellbrute and biker units all get the creations of bile trait
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marin wrote: Art of War down under have podcast episode with one of the best Australian player talking about the creation of Bile.
Where do I find this podcast
I am well aware of who benefits from the Legion trait but that is not my point. My point is that Fabius Biles buff does not work on bikes, the best stratagems in the army do not benefit bikes. If your so interested in +1S and +1MV for bikes then...go ahead, do what you want because that is a pretty interesting reason to build an army.
I would think that World Eaters +1A on the charge plus another for being Space Marines would be a much better way to utilize bikes if you are dead set on a bike list or a Red Corsairs list.
2020/08/25 17:39:54
Subject: Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
mrFickle wrote: Listen to that podcast and you might change your mind about then potential of a AOB army.
Sorry I am not a podcast person, I can't imagine anything more boring than listen to people talk about their opinions on a game so if you want to make an argument please post it yourself.
I am not saying Creations of Bile are bad but in the sense of how competitive they are they don't do anything better than any of the other Legions. So again, if you are looking at it from a competitive mindset then there is nothing that Creations of Bile offer because everything they have can be replicated better with other Legions.
You can build a decent army out of Creations of Bile that will do well but it is never going to be at the top tables. It is a fun fluffy list that gives you some interesting toys to play with but power level wise it falls solidly in the middle.
2020/08/26 02:06:41
Subject: Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
CoB isn't terrible, I'm sure a good player can make it work in a "better than 50/50 record at a tournament" kind of way. The issue is just that for whatever you want to do, there are other legions that would just do it better.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/26 02:10:53
2020/08/26 03:03:55
Subject: Re:Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
Also I am curious how you are getting possessed to T6?
Enhanced Warriors (always guaranteed toughness) plus strat.
Sorry, I misread what you posted and thought you were saying that you can make them T6 all the time.
It is a decent combo but again, I could run Word Bearers and make my Possessed -1 tohit vs ranged, S6 -2AP D2 towound of 6 causes a mortal wound rerolling 1's towound and tohit.
EDIT: I know that Creations of Bile can get most everything I just listed above except the D2 and 6's causing mortal wounds, but that is a fairly significant bonus that has great synergy with all of the units involved.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/26 03:19:56
2020/08/26 04:13:31
Subject: Re:Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
Yea I guess it depends on what you value from the units. Mobility and durability or damage. Possessed aren't the be all end all of COB. M8 on models that will usually run just feels super quick.
A big problem with COB is you can't enhance stuff in a transport so you're kind of left to stuff out in the open. He'll maybe get to use it twice each game so you really have to make it count.
If you really want to get cute you do it on chaincannon havocs for T6 innate or similarly on Plague Marines. I'm slightly enamored with W2 T5/6 Rubrics though. Maybe even S6 chainaxes on T5 W3 terminators with M6.
All fun in theory in any case.
2020/08/26 05:14:35
Subject: Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
If you actually want the + toughness from Bile you can just take him in any other legion instead, and get the better stratagems from there. A stratagem for +1 toughness on rubrics, for example, is junk compared to the options you have in Tsons themselves (the psychic buffs, the +1 invuln strat, though if you took both tsons and cob you could use that on cob rubrics I guess, still wouldn't be better than running them AL though if you really wanted to do that particular trick), or alpha legion (just make it so you can't shoot them period), etc.
The best thing COB has to offer is fast moving combat infantry that hits hard. But that isn't a winning game strategy in 9th any more, they just fall back and blow you off the table. And other legions even do that better anyway too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/26 05:15:19
2020/08/26 05:25:00
Subject: Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
yukishiro1 wrote: If you actually want the + toughness from Bile you can just take him in any other legion instead, and get the better stratagems from there. A stratagem for +1 toughness on rubrics, for example, is junk compared to the options you have in Tsons themselves (the psychic buffs, the +1 invuln strat, though if you took both tsons and cob you could use that on cob rubrics I guess, still wouldn't be better than running them AL though if you really wanted to do that particular trick), or alpha legion (just make it so you can't shoot them period), etc.
It really depends where 'All is Dust' lands. At present it does nothing for W2 rubrics taking shots from D2 HBs. Kicking invulns up also doesn't help with those particular scenarios.
A disintegrator kills 2 W2 4++ Rubrics, 1.3 3++, 2 T5 5++, and 1.3 T6 5++. So it's really all the same when invulns get involved and far better when low AP is at play.
I'm not going to trade out to COB and lose my other TS stuff, but for those running COB - it's worth considering.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/26 05:25:54
2020/08/26 05:30:40
Subject: Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
Rubrics with weaver + the strat would have a 3++ vs HBs, compared to a 4+/5+ in dev doctrine armor save. So it would make a difference. Which Tsons rubrics can put on themselves, while COB ones can't as they don't get psychic powers other than smite. Or ob-sec, of course.
If you want to run rubrics as something else AL has better synergy.
Again, it's not that COB is terrible, it's just that it doesn't offer anything that other Legions don't do better.
2020/08/26 05:34:48
Subject: Re:Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
I think 10 enhanced AL termis with T5 W3 (soon) and -1 to hit at 12+" are pretty good. Bile can enhance them T1, and then they are set up again T2, using renascent infiltration.
2020/08/26 06:08:09
Subject: Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
I do think Bile himself has some play in other Legion lists. I was fiddling around with a Tsons/AL list that takes Bile and keeps 250ish points in reserve, and uses him to buff up stuff and also as a summoner, taking advantage of his FNP, lack of a chaos mark and healing each turn, which arguably makes him the best summoner chaos has. The idea was that both bile and summoning are some of the only ways left in the game to list tailor to your opponent, so to run with that.
In the end I took him out though because I decided that summoning was only worth it with a daemon detachment to unlock the strats, and at that point you're spending a lot of points on HQs if you're also taking Ahriman and a DP.
But I do feel like he does fit into an AL list somehow, and that if there's any way to make summoning work, he might be part of it. Maybe just AL with a daemon pat to unlock the strats might work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/26 06:08:48
2020/08/26 08:26:54
Subject: Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
mrFickle wrote: Listen to that podcast and you might change your mind about then potential of a AOB army.
"Potential" is what leads to Obliterators being 110 points because they have potential for S9 AP-3 D3 shots, but how often does that actually work?
Very often if you build the list around it, it's just that , to achieve this the ammount of support charachters for a bomb does also increase exponentially and you are then talking about double the price of them.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/08/26 08:39:04
Subject: Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
mrFickle wrote: Listen to that podcast and you might change your mind about then potential of a AOB army.
Sorry I am not a podcast person, I can't imagine anything more boring than listen to people talk about their opinions on a game so if you want to make an argument please post it yourself.
I am not saying Creations of Bile are bad but in the sense of how competitive they are they don't do anything better than any of the other Legions. So again, if you are looking at it from a competitive mindset then there is nothing that Creations of Bile offer because everything they have can be replicated better with other Legions.
You can build a decent army out of Creations of Bile that will do well but it is never going to be at the top tables. It is a fun fluffy list that gives you some interesting toys to play with but power level wise it falls solidly in the middle.
Well it was a general recommendation for anyone looking at this thread. For context it’s one of Australia’s top tournament players talking about how he been trying out this army and how he think in 9 it can be very good in competitive play. He talks about many the things I’ve been looking, a hard to kill plague marine gun line, Effective fast attack close combat and holding objectives from early on. There a bunch of stuff in there but I won’t do it justice
2020/08/26 16:19:35
Subject: Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
Marin wrote: Art of War down under have podcast episode with one of the best Australian player talking about the creation of Bile.
That was actually a really good listen. Actually informative and no hyperbole or bluster.
It seems like it's a good list and that it plays to 9th, but I'm concerned about the survivability of some of the units. They're no Rubric Marines or Plague Marines. Only the Possessed seem to be able to hold an objective.
Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
2020/08/26 17:04:22
Subject: Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
Marin wrote: Art of War down under have podcast episode with one of the best Australian player talking about the creation of Bile.
That was actually a really good listen. Actually informative and no hyperbole or bluster.
It seems like it's a good list and that it plays to 9th, but I'm concerned about the survivability of some of the units. They're no Rubric Marines or Plague Marines. Only the Possessed seem to be able to hold an objective.
I agree and I will Be listening to more of the podcast. I think we will have to see what happens over time with stat and point changes but I am looking forward running this army.
I think there’s mileage in drop pods and bikers here, as the pod. AST says you can get unit as far as 30” across the table in one round and I think bikers would get to shoot and charge and you could give them +2T in that first round
2020/08/26 17:41:17
Subject: Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
mrFickle wrote: Listen to that podcast and you might change your mind about then potential of a AOB army.
"Potential" is what leads to Obliterators being 110 points because they have potential for S9 AP-3 D3 shots, but how often does that actually work?
Very often if you build the list around it, it's just that , to achieve this the ammount of support charachters for a bomb does also increase exponentially and you are then talking about double the price of them.
Spike tax is a real thing.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/08/26 17:58:25
Subject: Agents/Creations of Bile: Are they any good?
mrFickle wrote: Listen to that podcast and you might change your mind about then potential of a AOB army.
"Potential" is what leads to Obliterators being 110 points because they have potential for S9 AP-3 D3 shots, but how often does that actually work?
Very often if you build the list around it, it's just that , to achieve this the ammount of support charachters for a bomb does also increase exponentially and you are then talking about double the price of them.
Spike tax is a real thing.
Partially, i chalk it up to the lackluster Design idea of buffstacking that is basically the only thing the csm dex does.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
