Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A bit tricky to quote that, so I'm gonna use some snippets:

***
There are 21 Captains and 91 Lieutenants.
***

And approx. 4200 soldiers, yes. So one force on the table being 1 Captain, 3 Lts, and a hundred soldiers is fine for a force section.

This is akin to a marine Chapter having 10 Captains and 20 Lts. Take a slice of the overall force and that's a field army.

***
Not really. Supreme Command is a Big Deal, and nothing the Guard can currently put out there would qualify anywhere near a Primarch. Not unless, as mentioned, Orders are turned into a wildly different beast.
***

I think that the Supreme slot is going to be used more often and for things smaller than a Primarch, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to introduce it. Mostly it'll be named characters... Ghaz, sure, but I'd lay good odds that Yarrick will be there. Will there be a generic nameless slot? Maybe.. This would be "Space Marine Chapter Master" level, IE, top man of the entire faction. for Guard, probably a General type, someone from high Command in there to run the show in person.

***
The correct answer for HQs for Guard is for them to actually be Guard HQs.
Tempestor Primes are HQs--there needs to be a 'standard' Tempestor as well, if we're just cramming Junior Officers into HQs and Primes need to be buffed to match Seniors.
Tank Commanders are HQs, and appropriately so.
Master of Ordnance needs to be made into an HQ choice.
A Sentinel Commander needs to be made into an HQ choice.
***

I didn't have Tank Commanders up above? Ack! They should have been in there! They'd be on par with a Jr Officer, I think, rather than at the level of Sr Command, but it could go either way. Heck, you *could* have both, but that'd be tricky.

The assorted Masters might be a good look tho. I mean, they certainly *belong* on that level, I just don't know if they fit better as Elite than HQ. (Mind you, I'd scoot Librarians to Elite for marines, rather than HQ. You can't move one unles sthe other is as well, tho.)

But good points! Thank you for adding to the discussion!

I hope that some of the other factions will pop in like the DE and Guard have, bringing up good points, laying out how the fluff is and where missing units are.

This is really good stuff, and I thank everyone who's joining in on this one.

Tank Commanders are Captains or Colonels. They would not be Juniors.

Mind that Marines have a very different 'organizational structure' going, simply by virtue of their Companies being smaller.

A Company for Marines has as its command element in a Codex Chapter:
1x Captain
2x Lieutenants

buuuuuuuuuuut Chaplains and Librarians are regularly commanding forces.

Also how would Custodes even play? Arm't all of their HQ's a Captain? lol

 Kanluwen wrote:
Tank Commanders are Captains or Colonels. They would not be Juniors.

Mind that Marines have a very different 'organizational structure' going, simply by virtue of their Companies being smaller.

A Company for Marines has as its command element in a Codex Chapter:
1x Captain
2x Lieutenants

buuuuuuuuuuut Chaplains and Librarians are regularly commanding forces.

Yah. In 7th Ed the second Demi-Company in the full Gladius was led by a Chaplain.

Applying to Space Marine captains is one thing, but to all armies would be fething ridiculous.

As the young man above me just said Custodes have only shield-captains as their generic HQ option.

Furthermore, I personally love taking multiple greater daemons in one detachment (and not just the Keepers of Secrets), and when Angron inevitably gets released I'd want to have him in a Supreme Command Detachment leading his goonsquad of three Bloodthirsters over a battalion, which is actually very fluffy considering that's actually what the first war for Armageddon entailed. Only with twelve Bloodthirsters accompanying Angron.

What's the source btw?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Also how would Custodes even play? Arm't all of their HQ's a Captain? lol

Maybe they could move Vexilus Praetors to the HQ slot? Or just give Custodes a rule allowing them to have multiple Shield Captains? I doubt they'd have a very normal command structure anyway. Every Custode an army unto himself and all that.

I hope they boost Custodes so that Custodes feel to Marines, like The new Marines feel to Guardsmen. Give them lots of wounds and maybe special rules to shrug off AP 0, and -1 like rerolling failed saves, or something, and give them the relative damage boosts. If a unit of flame storm aggressors can take out 100 gaunts comfortably, then a unit of Custodes can do far better.
Make them movie marines.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Also how would Custodes even play? Arm't all of their HQ's a Captain? lol

They're verymuch in the position of needing more HQ options. Sniffing those out is part of this whole thread, so thank you for bringing them up!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Applying to Space Marine captains is one thing, but to all armies would be fething ridiculous.

As the young man above me just said Custodes have only shield-captains as their generic HQ option.

Furthermore, I personally love taking multiple greater daemons in one detachment (and not just the Keepers of Secrets), and when Angron inevitably gets released I'd want to have him in a Supreme Command Detachment leading his goonsquad of three Bloodthirsters over a battalion, which is actually very fluffy considering that's actually what the first war for Armageddon entailed. Only with twelve Bloodthirsters accompanying Angron.

What's the source btw?

The early look at the books that GW put up, where they fanned through a page or three. One still pic had a list of forces and limits, and "1 captain per detachment" was something that people picked out from the page, after blowing things up, cleaning them up, and so on.

It *could* be wrong, that people didn't read it wrong, but we know that they're down on triple Smash Captains and the restriction on Commanders shows how they're approaching this kind of thing. it *might* spread from there, we don't know.

Thus a discussion about if it's possible, and if it was enacted, where would things need to be shored up. Dark Eldar need more medium-weight leaders, for instance, as do Custodes. Figuring out who else is handy.

 Blndmage wrote:
I hope they boost Custodes so that Custodes feel to Marines, like The new Marines feel to Guardsmen. Give them lots of wounds and maybe special rules to shrug off AP 0, and -1 like rerolling failed saves, or something, and give them the relative damage boosts. If a unit of flame storm aggressors can take out 100 gaunts comfortably, then a unit of Custodes can do far better.
Make them movie marines.

They're not already? 2+ 4++ T5 3W, superbolter, super CC thingy, hitting on 2s often rerolling 1s, yadda yadda yadda.

Wakshaani wrote:
It *could* be wrong, that people didn't read it wrong, but we know that they're down on triple Smash Captains and the restriction on Commanders shows how they're approaching this kind of thing. it *might* spread from there, we don't know.

Honestly, I think the Tau Commander thing is a red herring - that rule was in place for a really big chunk of 8th, and never had an impact on Codex design - including SM8.5.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Also how would Custodes even play? Arm't all of their HQ's a Captain? lol

Maybe they could move Vexilus Praetors to the HQ slot? Or just give Custodes a rule allowing them to have multiple Shield Captains? I doubt they'd have a very normal command structure anyway. Every Custode an army unto himself and all that.

At this point almost every faction would need a custom structure for it. Its a lot of work for GW and i dont think it would turn out well at all.

Apple fox wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Also how would Custodes even play? Arm't all of their HQ's a Captain? lol

Maybe they could move Vexilus Praetors to the HQ slot? Or just give Custodes a rule allowing them to have multiple Shield Captains? I doubt they'd have a very normal command structure anyway. Every Custode an army unto himself and all that.

At this point almost every faction would need a custom structure for it. Its a lot of work for GW and i dont think it would turn out well at all.

I think the threat has shown quite clearly shown the opposite. Most armies could easily cope with such a rule, with the exceptions of drukhari, custodes and harlequins and maybe guard (though more for fluff reason, game-wise it would work)
Most complaints from other armies are linked to one's army becoming weaker because they can't spam their best HQ anymore, which would be the whole point of such a change.

 Jidmah wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Also how would Custodes even play? Arm't all of their HQ's a Captain? lol

Maybe they could move Vexilus Praetors to the HQ slot? Or just give Custodes a rule allowing them to have multiple Shield Captains? I doubt they'd have a very normal command structure anyway. Every Custode an army unto himself and all that.

At this point almost every faction would need a custom structure for it. Its a lot of work for GW and i dont think it would turn out well at all.

I think the threat has shown quite clearly shown the opposite. Most armies could easily cope with such a rule, with the exceptions of drukhari, custodes and harlequins and maybe guard (though more for fluff reason, game-wise it would work)
Most complaints from other armies are linked to one's army becoming weaker because they can't spam their best HQ anymore, which would be the whole point of such a change.

The ones i most play would have no reason for it from Fluff, and that is where i would look at it. They would still need to put effort into making it work, which is where i think would be there issue

So which ones do you play? You aren't exactly proving your point by talking in riddles

 Jidmah wrote:
So which ones do you play? You aren't exactly proving your point by talking in riddles

Well i mostly eldar and demons, but why i could see one commander as a thing. For fluff and feel to a lot of factions it would be a weird change without a fair bit of work. Even if a Faction can support it, does not mean it should at this point.

Special characters also already exist as well, So eh. I understand it from a game point somewhat, but as a 40k thing. I dont really think its a good thing as a whole.

Tyranids also makes no sense to limit them, GW only did in the past b.c no Ro3 was out yet.

i'd say, i would welcome it for CSM, especially in regards to dp's and lord discordants, IF gw steps away from the Stacking synergy cardhouse design forever.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
So, in theory, you'd have:

Senior Command (0-1)
With a note that this is usually "Captain" but some branches use a different term, but it's the highest level officer normally found at the battlefield level, with an extra level of issuing orders.

Just gonna throw this out there:

Spoiler:

This is for a Mechanised Infantry Regiment. It's from the Taros Campaign book and the numbers are for the outset of a campaign where they operated more or less as one large detachment.

There are 21 Captains and 91 Lieutenants.

And you want to put "Senior Command"(which is Captains and Colonels, per GW's own fluff) as 0-1?

Junior Command (0-3)
With a note that this is usually called "Lieutenant" but some branches use a different term, but it's the "standard" level officer for command of smaller units and used in support of a higher level officer for larger conflicts. You get 1-3 for a single HQ slot (similar to how marine LTs are two in one slot) and they have the basic level of issuing orders.

At this point, no. Not if you're locking Seniors to 0-1.

There could be an additional option:
Regimental Command (1)
Far beyond the ordinary ranks seen on the battlefield, (fluff) … this is a Supreme Command Detachment option that does really cool stuff on par with a Chapter Master/

Which sounds solid.

Not really. Supreme Command is a Big Deal, and nothing the Guard can currently put out there would qualify anywhere near a Primarch. Not unless, as mentioned, Orders are turned into a wildly different beast.

But there should be 1-3 more HQ options. Lord Commissar is one of those, then... Primaris Psycher? Or should the Psychers be moved fully to an Elite slot since they're never in command of a group?

By that logic, Lord Commissars should be Elites too. Because it's rare for Commissars to be given command of anything larger than a squad.

Is just Sr Officer, Jr Officer, and Lord Commissar enough?

No.

The correct answer for HQs for Guard is for them to actually be Guard HQs.
Tempestor Primes are HQs--there needs to be a 'standard' Tempestor as well, if we're just cramming Junior Officers into HQs and Primes need to be buffed to match Seniors.
Tank Commanders are HQs, and appropriately so.
Master of Ordnance needs to be made into an HQ choice.
A Sentinel Commander needs to be made into an HQ choice.

When I wrote my Imperial Guard HQ back in the day, I think I had...


Regimental Command Squad, with a big exciting banner and rules. It also gave your opponent VP when you killed it.

Company Command Squad - This was a standard command squad. You suffered a leadership penality if it died.

Platoon Command Squad - This gave a small leadership buff to nearby units. Nobody cared if it died.

There was also a Lord Commissar type option. [Lord Commissars didn't exist back then.]

MoO is a stupid model/rank/concept. Heavy weapon platoons are lead by Platoon command squads just like normal infantry platoons. Artillary regiments are lead by officers typically in Salamanders [No, not _those_ Salamanders] or Chimera's and can also be represented by Platoon level commanders. The whole can fire one not quite a decent artillary shell badly a round is as ridicious as the Air Support officer having a strafing run effect roughly the same as a single heavy bolter.

More platoon commanders are the soultion however its designed. These should always be on the tabletop. Making them a 1+ would help and yes, they should be a HQ choice. They're uh, a... HQ.

You just need the option to upgrade a command squad to a tank commander for every 3 leman russ you have in your army, and you can upgrade a platoon junior tank commander to a Company tank commander if you have at least two other junior ones.

This stuff is not hard to write.

 Jidmah wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Also how would Custodes even play? Arm't all of their HQ's a Captain? lol

Maybe they could move Vexilus Praetors to the HQ slot? Or just give Custodes a rule allowing them to have multiple Shield Captains? I doubt they'd have a very normal command structure anyway. Every Custode an army unto himself and all that.

At this point almost every faction would need a custom structure for it. Its a lot of work for GW and i dont think it would turn out well at all.

I think the threat has shown quite clearly shown the opposite. Most armies could easily cope with such a rule, with the exceptions of drukhari, custodes and harlequins and maybe guard (though more for fluff reason, game-wise it would work)
Most complaints from other armies are linked to one's army becoming weaker because they can't spam their best HQ anymore, which would be the whole point of such a change.

Agreed about weakening armies. The great thing about the old FOC was that it meant regardless of how powerful your characters were you were capped at 2 so the effect on the game was often heavily reduced, even for the most powerful ones. As far as Custodes, Harlequins and Drukhari struggling with such a change, that just adds more weight to the idea the first two should never have been a fully fledged army in their own right in the first place and further highlights the stupidity of the decision to split the Dark Eldar into 3 mutually exclusive subfactions.

Slipspace wrote:
As far as Custodes, Harlequins and Drukhari struggling with such a change, that just adds more weight to the idea the first two should never have been a fully fledged army in their own right in the first place and further highlights the stupidity of the decision to split the Dark Eldar into 3 mutually exclusive subfactions.

Or, to phrase it in a more positive way: Custodes and Harlequins should be fully fledged armies

Can't be that hard to release two infantry boxes which can be build into a HQ and a vehicle for both of them.

 Jidmah wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
As far as Custodes, Harlequins and Drukhari struggling with such a change, that just adds more weight to the idea the first two should never have been a fully fledged army in their own right in the first place and further highlights the stupidity of the decision to split the Dark Eldar into 3 mutually exclusive subfactions.

Or, to phrase it in a more positive way: Custodes and Harlequins should be fully fledged armies

Can't be that hard to release two infantry boxes which can be build into a HQ and a vehicle for both of them.

Yeah, harlequins differ enough in their palystyle from the other eldar to be a standalone army. They just need some more polish to get new models that are playable by them instead of the imperium.

I continue to be kind of... hostile on this - even if I can't see it really mattering for most armies. It just feels like a fluff at all costs, which will restrict without adding anything.

Lets say Orks can only bring one Warboss. I'm not sure you'd want to bring three as it stands - but if you did, should you be restrained? What about Weird Boys and Big Meks? Should there only be one?

Dark Eldar's issues have been highlighted - but for boring Eldar, would bringing three Farseer's really break the game? I guess triple Skorpekh Lord is a build waiting to happen, but would a limit on Overlords matter, if for some reason you wanted to bring along three?

I guess my cynicism is that GSC have this rule - and as far as I can tell it adds nothing. It doesn't make the army feel more fluffy, or cool. Its just a further annoying wrench in list design. Its unclear how two Magus in a detachment impacts anyone. Maybe the fact people would be tempted to take 3 sniper characters - but what of it (and without the relic I'm not sure they are all that).

If you don't like the fact people can take two smash captains and think they should pay CP for the second one... why not just make that a rule?

Tempest primes, if they do this, would need to be able to issue their orders as an aura. "All troop choices in 6 inches get FRFSRF" instead of "this ONE unit."

Tyel 791390 10911207 wrote:
If you don't like the fact people can take two smash captains and think they should pay CP for the second one... why not just make that a rule?

Or just fix the problem instead of nerfing everything around it. Smash captin/chapter masters are a problem. Make them a 0-1 option, don't punish custodes or IG for an option another army has.

Marines are going to "cheat" the system anyway. They are going to take a jump smash capting , a jump or biker Lt and a khan, or what ever other special option their faction has.

Karol wrote:

Tyel 791390 10911207 wrote:
If you don't like the fact people can take two smash captains and think they should pay CP for the second one... why not just make that a rule?

Or just fix the problem instead of nerfing everything around it. Smash captin/chapter masters are a problem. Make them a 0-1 option, don't punish custodes or IG for an option another army has.

Marines are going to "cheat" the system anyway. They are going to take a jump smash capting , a jump or biker Lt and a khan, or what ever other special option their faction has.

The real question is should Smashcaptains even be a thing? Hell it was only one real offender to begin with.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
As far as Custodes, Harlequins and Drukhari struggling with such a change, that just adds more weight to the idea the first two should never have been a fully fledged army in their own right in the first place and further highlights the stupidity of the decision to split the Dark Eldar into 3 mutually exclusive subfactions.

Or, to phrase it in a more positive way: Custodes and Harlequins should be fully fledged armies

Can't be that hard to release two infantry boxes which can be build into a HQ and a vehicle for both of them.

Yeah, harlequins differ enough in their palystyle from the other eldar to be a standalone army. They just need some more polish to get new models that are playable by them instead of the imperium.

This is going to sound gakky, but IMO not only do they not differ significantly, in so far as they do they choke off design space from the Drukhari; quick, hit-and-run glass cannons with a piratey vibe.

Harlequins, honestly, could stand to occupy the same space for Aeldari as Custodes do for the Imperium.

Low model count, heavy hitting and fairly survivable via Invulnerables.

 harlokin wrote:

This is going to sound gakky, but IMO not only do they not differ significantly, in so far as they do they choke off design space from the Drukhari; quick, hit-and-run glass cannons with a piratey vibe.

Thinking about it, I'm inclined to agree.

Especially with 8th/9th being drastically streamlined, such that there are far fewer ways to make unit meaningfully different without just piling on the unique rules.

For example, it used to be that all non-Coven Dark Eldar could run and Assault in the same turn. And it made sense; aside from the Haemonculi creations, they were supposed to be exceptionally fast and agile. But then in 8th that ability was given to Harlequins instead. Eldar got Battle Focus (meaning they were still fast but with a more shooty theme), and Dark Eldar got . . . nothing.

It might not be so bad, if Dark Eldar wasn't already in the position of begging for table-scraps.

As far as Custodes, Harlequins and Drukhari struggling with such a change, that just adds more weight to the idea the first two should never have been a fully fledged army in their own right in the first place

Custodes Harelquins have a much more diverse range than any mere marine subfaction, especially when you include the FW models and the still missing Harelquin units that were ignored when GW were more intersted in churning out all those slightly different Primaris Leiutenants.

Both are also much larger than any Chapter.

Hopefully we will get an actual Sisters of Silence HQ

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Tempest primes, if they do this, would need to be able to issue their orders as an aura. "All troop choices in 6 inches get FRFSRF" instead of "this ONE unit."

Why?