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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
In my army warp talons with Prey On The Weak were pretty efficient at shredding primaris before gw got silly with their points cost, now, not so much.

Right now for gravis, I'd say my best bet is my double chainclaw Contemptor. 6 S14, AP-4, D4 attacks hitting on 2s on the charge equals 4 dead at 151 PPM with combi- bolters. Unless the Loyalist Scum player decides to make them magically T14 for 2CP. God, I hate that strategem.

Aw man! Warptallons have such good models as well!

In fact chaos in particular are full of good models that se little play.

Calidius grav tanks with trajann buff are pretty good at taking them down as well.

I mean it's probably like, guard command squads or something right?

24pts+40pts of plasma, kills 3.69 W2 space marines, 66.5pts of 18ppm tactical marines.

Over 100% points return. They kill themselves, they have no delivery mechanism, and they're 16ppm themselves with guardsmen defensive stats, so it makes good sense that they get amazing returns, but there it is.

Shining Spears get 80% points return, much more of a reasonable choice tbh, since they have actual mobility and durability to back up their cost, that might be the best eldar can do in terms of all-at-once type units. Guardian Defenders seem to be awful at the job, im getting about a 30% points return and that's with no delivery mechanism and you have to drop them within auspex scan range.

for drukhari the ravager is the obvious goto but it's probably like a perfectly equipped talos pain engine that gets both its shooting and its melee off for pure points efficiency. The units that could never really realistically get there on their own are honestly going to be the best at this.

GSC it's gonna be acolytes, everything else is crazy overpriced, 5 with saws gets like 90% point return vs 18ppm tacticals. Assuming they make the charge out of deep strike obviously, best case realistic scenario is you take them in CTFAE and you give them a clamavus (who inflates their point cost a little since he is 65ppm and his only purpose is this aura) and get them in to combat on a roll of 7 on the dice. All told since 58% of them get in in the first place and you have to pay for the clamavus you're probably looking at about a 40% return from the GSC's best option.

Even though reach is definitly important:

Death Korps Combat Engineers with carcass shot (12''), as far as I know they are still 80 points for 10 dudes.
20 shots *2/3*5/6*1/3 = 3.7 dead marines.

Also if you get them into melee: Deathriders:
75 points for 5=>
11 attacks x 2/3x2/3x2/3 = 3.26 unsaved wounds => as D3 weapons need on average 4/3 attacks to kill a W2 model this should come down to 2.44 dead marines
The horses make additional 10 attacks x 2/3 x 1/2*1/3 = 1.11 damage so in total ~ 3 dead Marines. + another one if you manage to get a Death Korps regimental Standard nearby

Grav devs seem like a very solid contender, even without the stratagem.

What do we think about chaos spawn? their exceptional randomness makes mathhammer completely non representative of a situation, but:

4 chaos spawn is 92 points.
With no mutation effects, they chuck out ~14 attacks at ws4+, str5, ap-2, d2: 7 hits, 4.66 wounds, 3.11 failed saves for 6.22 dmg
however this can swing up to 24 attacks, and as low as 4.
Then factor in the one of three mutations, with average number of attacks:
1: become ap-4: 7 hits, 4.66 wounds, no save, 9.33 damage.
2: each gets +2 attacks: 11 hits, 7.33 wounds, 4.889 fails, 9.778 damage.
3: reroll wounds: 7 hits, 6.22 wounds, 4.148 fails, 8.296 damage.

So in total they do an average of 9.136 damage which works out to effectively 0.1 damage per point.

Ok now having done the maths they aren't quite as good as I thought. Still a greatly efficient and tough unit however.

Can we think of anything that pushes 0.2/0.3 damage per point without any special rules? I am assuming this will have to be a combat unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maths on grav devs, assuming that d3 damage is representative of 2 (I'm going to recalculate and figure out probability of d3s and add it). Rounding is to simplify numbers.

They are a 120 point unit and throw out 16 shots. With their datasheet they chuck out 12 bs3 shots + 8 bs2 shots in one phase.

So 12 shots str5 ap-3 d3dmg with bs3+: 8 hits, 5.333 wounds, 4.444 fails, 8.888 damage.
then 8 shots at bs2+: 6.667 shots, 4.444 wounds, 3.704 fails, 7.408 damage for a total of 16.296 damage

That's 0.136 damage per point. In the shooting phase with no other effects. Pretty good.

@ d3 weapons and W2 models: it's simply 4/3 shots per W2 model. There is a 2/3 chance to kill the model in one go (roll 2 or 3) and a 1/3 chance to need exactly 2 shots (rolling a 1 and then anything on the second dice)

The Boomer gunwagon isn't too bad, if you get moderately lucky. 4D6 S8 AP-2 Dam 2 shots per turn. Shame you can't chuck sparkly bitz on it.

I've also had some success with my Warboss:

Biggest Boss, might is right, headwoppas killchoppa, attack squig.

78 points and 1CP to output 6 S9 AP-2 Dam2 CC attacks hitting on 2's which do 2 mortal wounds on a 6 instead, plus the free squig for 2 S4 AP-1 D1 attacks on top. all from a model with 7 wounds and a 4++ save. at 18 points per model, he has to simply connect with marines to make his points back. With 'ere we go and his ability to move-advance-charge, he's a bit of a scary beast.

I've been thinking about the maths of killing a 2W model with d3 damage. It seems it's way more complicated than I originally thought because damage does not spill over.

So 1/3 of the time only 1 damage is dealt and then the next damage roll doesn't matter. that means every in every 4 damage rolls, 2 of them are effectively damage 1 as 1/3 times the next roll is negated and only does 1 dmg. It's probably better to talk about dead models here than damage: 3 out of every 4 unsaved wounds kill a 2W model. Right?

So for the grav devs that works out to (4.444)*(0.75)+(3.704)*(3/4)= 6.111 killed models, so effectively 12.222 actual damage dealt.

or effectively 16.296*0.75. A quarter if the damage dealt is negated due to damage not spilling over.

Is this right?

I too think damage is the wrong way to go. Dead W2 models are more helpful. And yes, 4/3 unsaved dD3 wounds kill one W2 model.

I suppose high volume S6, AP4 D1 weapons are probably optimal since no success is wasted by overkill/fnp etc.

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
I've been thinking about the maths of killing a 2W model with d3 damage. It seems it's way more complicated than I originally thought because damage does not spill over.

So 1/3 of the time only 1 damage is dealt and then the next damage roll doesn't matter. that means every in every 4 damage rolls, 2 of them are effectively damage 1 as 1/3 times the next roll is negated and only does 1 dmg. It's probably better to talk about dead models here than damage: 3 out of every 4 unsaved wounds kill a 2W model. Right?

So for the grav devs that works out to (4.444)*(0.75)+(3.704)*(3/4)= 6.111 killed models, so effectively 12.222 actual damage dealt.

or effectively 16.296*0.75. A quarter if the damage dealt is negated due to damage not spilling over.

Is this right?

Well, I'm not sure about the final math of the Grav Devs, but you can replace it with "cleaner" math using Plasma Cannons with straight 2D. If you're firing at a squad that has more than five models, the Plasma Cannons get three shots each. 3 x 3 x .666 x .83 x 2 + (6* x .83 x .83 x 2) = 18.2 W, or 9 dead Marines.

*Exchange the 6 for a 5 if you assume you are firing at a less-than-five-man squad at the end of the shooting phase. But if we're going for max casualties, use a 6 for firing at a different squad or whatever.

On full rerolls that squad gives a total of 26.4 wounds for 13 dead Marines.


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For Xenos, a Kronos Exocrene does ok, dealing 5.15 D2 hits when standing still.

Good 'ol Caladius grav tanks (or Telemons with Illastus accelerators cannons):
8 shots, S7 AP-3 D2 with Trajan support for re-roll ones gives 7.78 hits, 6.05 wounds, 5 dead marines.

I think Dark Reapers are still a pretty good choice using the Starswarm missile - Heavy 2, 5/-2/2 being shot at BS3+ always hitting on a 3+
A squad of 5 w/exarch is only 175pts which would get:
10 shots (48" range too)
6/7 hits
4 Wounds
1 save
Giving 3 dead marines per shooting phase.
If we can add in support from a Farseer with Guide/Doom that would increase too

Without any support at all, eradicators can do alright. With a captain along for the ride the new assault plasma incinerator profile looks like it will be very effective.

A Cadian heavy bolter team is probably the cheapest single unit though that isn't doing a suicide attack, if you can afford to stick additional orders and the concentrated fire strat on them they should get close to killing their own points in marines each phase.

Asymmetric wrote:
Bloody Rose Sisters Repentia are usually discussed as one of the best units at trading up. Cheap and shred Primaris.

Hands down these. Unsupported (apart from the passion) 9 Repentia (135p) will kill 18 Primaris on the charge. (27 attacks -> 27hits (due to the passion/zealot) -> 18wounds at D2 Ap -4)
Throw in a preacher, a Superior and 4cp for +1 to wound/fight twice and you're looking at 70 dead marines in one combat phase. ( In a theoretical world where catching 70 marines and not losing any models to strikeback is even remotely possible)

Clearly the superior Hades Autocannon helldrake....


jokes aside, Autocannons and plasma guns solve nearly any issue this edition in conjunction with a bad wound table...

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
Grav devs seem like a very solid contender, even without the stratagem.

What do we think about chaos spawn? their exceptional randomness makes mathhammer completely non representative of a situation, but:

4 chaos spawn is 92 points.
With no mutation effects, they chuck out ~14 attacks at ws4+, str5, ap-2, d2: 7 hits, 4.66 wounds, 3.11 failed saves for 6.22 dmg
however this can swing up to 24 attacks, and as low as 4.
Then factor in the one of three mutations, with average number of attacks:
1: become ap-4: 7 hits, 4.66 wounds, no save, 9.33 damage.
2: each gets +2 attacks: 11 hits, 7.33 wounds, 4.889 fails, 9.778 damage.
3: reroll wounds: 7 hits, 6.22 wounds, 4.148 fails, 8.296 damage.

So in total they do an average of 9.136 damage which works out to effectively 0.1 damage per point.

Ok now having done the maths they aren't quite as good as I thought. Still a greatly efficient and tough unit however.

Can we think of anything that pushes 0.2/0.3 damage per point without any special rules? I am assuming this will have to be a combat unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maths on grav devs, assuming that d3 damage is representative of 2 (I'm going to recalculate and figure out probability of d3s and add it). Rounding is to simplify numbers.

They are a 120 point unit and throw out 16 shots. With their datasheet they chuck out 12 bs3 shots + 8 bs2 shots in one phase.

So 12 shots str5 ap-3 d3dmg with bs3+: 8 hits, 5.333 wounds, 4.444 fails, 8.888 damage.
then 8 shots at bs2+: 6.667 shots, 4.444 wounds, 3.704 fails, 7.408 damage for a total of 16.296 damage

That's 0.136 damage per point. In the shooting phase with no other effects. Pretty good.

Haha this was my suggestion as well. I've used them in 8th and they were solid to great if using Tsons to reroll all their randomness.

Avatar of Khaine- 5 attacks hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+, no save damage is roll 2 d6 take the better. If you add in the extremely common choice of expert crafter you get one reroll of a hit and wound as well. That should mean that most times = 5 dead marines.

50 point Penitent Engine

Double HF 2.33W
Flails 5W

Total 7.33W or almost 4x 2W Marines for 50 points

Lilrys wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:
Bloody Rose Sisters Repentia are usually discussed as one of the best units at trading up. Cheap and shred Primaris.

Hands down these. Unsupported (apart from the passion) 9 Repentia (135p) will kill 18 Primaris on the charge. (27 attacks -> 27hits (due to the passion/zealot) -> 18wounds at D2 Ap -4)
Throw in a preacher, a Superior and 4cp for +1 to wound/fight twice and you're looking at 70 dead marines in one combat phase. ( In a theoretical world where catching 70 marines and not losing any models to strikeback is even remotely possible)

of course this also requires you to get a charge off with those repentia. I mean they're T3 W1 SV 6++ foot infantry.

BrianDavion wrote:


of course this also requires you to get a charge off with those repentia. I mean they're T3 W1 SV 6++ foot infantry.

Easier than you might think, since Sisters tend to have some of the most reliable charges in the entire game due to acts of faith.

And yeah, forgot about Repentia. They are insanely excellent at killing Primaris to the point that they're honestly overkill, which might actually make using them against a ten man block of intercessors less efficient heh.

3 Bullgryns (129 points)
13 attacks *2/3*2/3*1/2 = 5.78 damage or 2.89 dead Marines on the charge
with a priest nearby:
16 attacks => 7.11 damage, 3.56 dead Marines

There are most likely more points efficient Options, but Bullgryns also bring a bit of a defensive profile compared to plasma scions and the like.

They're also ultra-easy to kill with their super squishy profile though.

Well, as the thread shows there are some ways to deal with 2W Marines.
But the units named are generally not troops, while the Marines are troops (among others).
So there remains an imbalance that should not be overlooked.

Has anyone mentioned the bonebreaka with da red rolla?

12 attacks, hitting on 2's, wounding on 2's, 2 damage and IIRC -2AP? plus MW on the charge if you use the stratagem for it.

In other thoughts, ork nobs with twin killsaws would make mincemeat of most marines, with 4 attacks each, S10 no saves and 2 damage.

I love Flashgitz, their models are cool and the Snazz Gunz are powerful but they are expensive. If they can sit still, benefit from Competitive Streak and Buffed by badrukk then their killing potential increases but it's a big investment.

Ork Nobz with big choppa do 2mg bit -1AP. Cheaper than the kilsaw option which in also unweildly

Edit: If you take Freeboota Warboss and give him Killa Reputation, friendly Ork infantry gets re-roll 1 to hit. If you then take that 5 ork nob unit with Big Choppas, that amounts to 200 points for the WB and the Nobz. Providing those Nobz are benefiting from the Freeboota trait they will do about 9.7 damage in CC not including the WB attacking. If they aren't being affected by the FB kukture then they still do 7.7 damage.

If you took Killsaw Nobz with that warboss you are doing 19-25 damage depending on if the Nobz are benefiting from FB kukture at the time. And that comes to about 225 points.

I rate the Castigator knight very highly in this role, and I always take one when running IK/CK. The gun is 16 S6 -2 D2 shots, and with trail of devastation the gun kills 6 2w marines. Then his sword is custom built to kill gravis, nu-termies, etc. S14, -3 D3, x2 attacks. With an iconoclast knight you're getting 10 attacks minimum, enough to punk a decent size squad of 3w or 2w marines.

Well, if it comes to Marine killing weapons, you need to be able to spam them, such as heavy bolters or starcannons.
But the number of carriers is limited and they can become really pricey.

Another thing that can be efficient but is hard to pull off (but not necessarily harder than getting things into melee I guess):
Cyclops demolition vehicle (60 points).
On average 7 (autohits) x 5/6 (wounds) x 2/3 (saves) x 2 (damage) = 7.77 damage or ~3 dead marines (taking into account the dD3 profile) in every unit within D6'' (so 6 damage done to units of W2 Marines)
So it's 0.1 wounds per point per Marine unit within range which can (!) be pretty awesome. But as mentioned: not easy to pull off.

Riptides with heavy burst cannon and smart missles.

Most efficent is probably warrior bomb though.
Get 2+ reroll 1's.

Almost 18 wounds. If you manage to get in range with mephrite...it kills a whole 20 man squad.