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A question came up in the Harlies forum, about whether the Shadowstone (relic that increases Aura and Psychic power ranges by 3") would affect the ranges of psychic actions (which are cast as if they are psychic powers.

So this is from the actions page:

A PSYKER unit from your army can attempt to perform a psychic action in its Psychic phase instead of attempting to manifest any psychic powers.

To perform a psychic action with a PSYKER unit, you must first pass a Psychic test in the same manner as if it were attempting to manifest a psychic power.

So it would seem it differentiates between 'psychic power' and 'psychic action'. And the shadowstone specifies psychic power. So the answer to this seems to be a no.

However later in the actions description -

The opposing player can then select one of their PSYKER units that is within 24" of the PSYKER unit attempting to perform the psychic action and attempt to deny that action in the same manner as if it were attempting to deny a psychic power, by passing a Deny the Witch test.

Which is... interesting. Because it doesn't say that is IS a Deny the Witch, it's just "in the same manner" of a Deny. So ...

Does that mean it doesn't use up one of your Deny's for that turn?

The Shadowstone increases Psychic power ranges. A Psychic Action is not a Psychic power, this is clear because it says "A PSYKER unit from your army can attempt to perform a psychic action... instead of attempting to manifest any psychic powers."

As for deny, the opposing PSYKER unit is not performing a Deny the Witch test, it is just done by rolling dice etc...

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Shadowstone increases Psychic power ranges. A Psychic Action is not a Psychic power, this is clear because it says "A PSYKER unit from your army can attempt to perform a psychic action... instead of attempting to manifest any psychic powers."

As for deny, the opposing PSYKER unit is not performing a Deny the Witch test, it is just done by ruling dice etc...

Which means that using a psychic action, uses up all of a psykers powers for that turn (so even a 2-cast psyker can only cast a single action, and no powers), but a single-deny enemy psyker can deny an action, and then carry on and deny a psychic power as well.

Seems unbalanced.

It should be that casting a psychic action should use up a single cast, and denying the action uses up a single deny, for that turn.

There is no should. This is a case of it shouldn't work that way just because you don't like it and there's no place for that in a rules forum it clouds issues



When you look at non psychic actions models that make multiple shots/ have multiple weapons or can fight twice are equally limited to their non multi shooting/fighting equivalents.

This is both a case of clear RAW and almost certain RAI based on it being contiguous with other similar rules.

If psychic actions aren't psychic powers, the bearer of the helm of spite wouldn't be able to attempt to deny a psychic action, would it? I find this area of the rules a bit grey... Same issues occurs with the frozen stars relic "ghoulmask".

What would happen to psykers such as yvrainne who have rules saying that they add +1 to their attempts to manifest / deny a psychic power?

You can deny psychic actions because the rules for deny allow you to do so. It doesn't make Psychic Actions psychic powers for other effects.

The point hes making is the rules only allow psykers to deny psychic actions.

Models that can deny but are not psykers are not permitted e.g. SoB or models granted a deny by a relic or warlord trait. Theres no grey area.(the exception being if the relic or warlord trait makes you a psyker)

eparedes0785 wrote:
If psychic actions aren't psychic powers, the bearer of the helm of spite wouldn't be able to attempt to deny a psychic action, would it? I find this area of the rules a bit grey... Same issues occurs with the frozen stars relic "ghoulmask".

Maybe un-intuitive, but not grey. The relics don't turn the models into PSYKER which is required to perform a psychic action.

What would happen to psykers such as yvrainne who have rules saying that they add +1 to their attempts to manifest / deny a psychic power?

Not much, as the rule has no affect on psychic actions.

But you also have the Rare Rule clarification on page 89 (of the GT Chapter Approved version).

Sometimes a rule will allow a mode that is not a PSYKER to attempt or deny a psychic power. When resolving such abilities, it does so using the rules on page 67-68 exactly as if it were a PSYKER, and is affected by rules that modify Psychic tests or Deny the Witch tests, but it is not a PSYKER for any other rules purposes.

Thus for the purposes of their ability to Deny the Witch, a Dark Eldar with the Helm of Spite or a Tau Commanders with the Deny-Relic, etc.., is considered a Psyker for the purposes of that rule. Thus the model would be eligible to use a Deny on a Psychic Action as specified under the Psychic Action rules.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
But you also have the Rare Rule clarification on page 89 (of the GT Chapter Approved version).

Sometimes a rule will allow a mode that is not a Psyker to attempt or deny a psychic power. When resolving such abilities, it does so using hte rules on page 67-68 exactly as if it were a Psyker, and is affected by rules that modify Psychic tests or Deny the Witch tests, but it is not a Psyker for any other rules purposes.

Emphasis mine. This supports that psychic actions can only performed by PSYKERS and can only be denied by PSYKERS.

 Jidmah wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
But you also have the Rare Rule clarification on page 89 (of the GT Chapter Approved version).

Sometimes a rule will allow a mode that is not a Psyker to attempt or deny a psychic power. When resolving such abilities, it does so using hte rules on page 67-68 exactly as if it were a Psyker, and is affected by rules that modify Psychic tests or Deny the Witch tests, but it is not a Psyker for any other rules purposes.

Emphasis mine. This supports that psychic actions can only performed by PSYKERS and can only be denied by PSYKERS.

As. And with regards to Deny the Witch tests, these models are treated as PSYKERS.

Step 1 -> Relic provides ability to deny a psychic power (not action, I know ... the wording is identical to the regular deny the witch rules for regular psykers that also don't mention denying psychic actions).
Step 2 -> Having that ability makes the model eligible to be a PSYKER as regards Deny the Witch.
Step 3 -> Being PSYKER for the purposes of Deny the Witch just as a psyker, they can attempt to Deny a Psychic Action also as per the Psychic Action table.

The regular "Deny the Witch" rules for "regular" psykers likewise make no mention of psychic actions. The regular deny the witch test rules only allow Psykers (and by extention count-as-psykers) to deny powers (not actions).

But the Psychic Action rules specify that those models (which includes non-Psykers that count as psykers for deny-purposes according to the rare rules section) to also deny a psychic action.


If the wording of the rules under Psychic Actions does give models with PSYKER on the datasheet the ability to deny an action (which is not something they can do by the "base" Deny-the-Witch-rules"), it also grants this to models treated as PSYKERS for Deny-purposes based on non-action-related-deny-abilities thanks to strats, relics, etc.. that match the wording of the generic (non-action-related) Deny-the-witch ability in the rulebook. The trigger conditions at that point are identical.

Step 1 is already wrong though. Deny the witch does not allow you to deny psychic actions, psychic actions themselves do, and that rule requires you to be a psyker.

Unless you are specifically given the ability to deny psychic actions, the only thing that matter is wether you are a psyker or not.

A custodes character with the ability to deny would never get a chance to resolve his ability and therefore wouldn't ever be considered a psyker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rules quote for completeness:

The opposing player can then select one of their PSYKER units that is within 24" of the PSYKER unit attempting to perform the psychic action and attempt to deny that action in the same manner as if it were attempting to deny a psychic power, by passing a Deny the Witch test.

If the unit is not a psyker, you are not allowed to select it.

 Jidmah wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rules quote for completeness:

The opposing player can then select one of their PSYKER units that is within 24" of the PSYKER unit attempting to perform the psychic action and attempt to deny that action in the same manner as if it were attempting to deny a psychic power, by passing a Deny the Witch test.

If the unit is not a psyker, you are not allowed to select it.

Yes the unit is.

He has the ability to attempt to deny a psychic power, which makes the unit a PSYKER for that purpose as per the rules, thus the unit is eligible to be selected.

It's best looked at like this:

1. Psychic power
2. Deny psychic power
3. Psychic action - works like a psychic power, but is not one
4. Deny psychic action - works like denying a psychic power, but is not the same

Without any mention of 3 and 4 specifically, items of wargear can give you permission to be a psyker to perform 1 or 2. That doesn't give you permission to be a psyker for 3 or 4 as well.

 Super Ready wrote:
It's best looked at like this:

1. Psychic power
2. Deny psychic power
3. Psychic action - works like a psychic power, but is not one
4. Deny psychic action - works like denying a psychic power, but is not the same

Without any mention of 3 and 4 specifically, items of wargear can give you permission to perform 1 or 2. That doesn't give you permission to do 3 or 4 as well.

Except you for got.

5. Rare rules state that if you have a wargear, stratagem, etc.. that allows you to to do 1 or 2, you gain the necessary keyword that will make the unit eligible for 3 (as corresponds to 1) or 4 (as corresponds to 2) as per those rules.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
He has the ability to attempt to deny a psychic power, which makes the unit a PSYKER for that purpose as per the rules

That is not what the rule says. It only counts as a psyker when resolving that ability and specifically not for any other purpose. You cannot resolve an ability you are not allowed to use in the first place.

If you have a deny you count as a psyker for the purpose of deny the witch

You do not have the psyker keyword

You cannot take or deny psychic actions

Sunny side up is just wrong here. It's been well explained by others. The rare rule Sunny quoted makes this crystal clear by saying that you only act as a psyker for purposes of attempting or denying POWERS, and not for any other purpose - in other words, not for attempting or denying psychic ACTIONS.

Is it intended? Who knows. But the rule is pretty clear. Only PSYKERS can attempt to deny psychic actions, and it also doesn't use up one of your normal denies.

Again, PSYKERS cannot by default attempt to deny psychic actions.

The deny the witch rules are very clear that deny is only vs. psychic powers, not psychic actions.

However, the psychic action rules state that models that are PSYKERS can attempt to deny a psychic action.

Models that have the ability to deny a psychic power through abilities, warlord traits, stratagems, etc.. are treated as PSYKERS for deny-purposes, thus the psychic action rules are equally eligible to them. If they weren't regular PSYKERS couldn't deny psychic actions either, as both are considered to have the PSYKER keyword as concerns the psychic actions rules and no other conditions are specified.


Since having PSYKER is the relevant keyword specified by the psychic actions rules, and both types of units/models have it with regards to deny, and no other conditions exist in the psychic actions rules, there is no logical possibility that there could be any kind of differentiation between those units. Both either can deny actions or both cannot. The trigger condition is identical to the letter.

It depends on the wording of the rule that lets a non psyker try to deny the witch. Usually it says something like can deny a psychic power as if he is a psyker. This doesn't work for psychic actions, because a psychic action isn't a psychic power. If the rule says something like he can do a deny the witch test, then he could try to deny the psychic action.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
are treated as PSYKERS for deny-purposes

This is where you are wrong. This is not what the rule says.

It says they are treated as psykers when resolving such an ability. Keep in mind that unlike in the German language, "when" does not describe a condition, but a time frame.
You have no permission to resolve such an ability. Just like you cannot start to resolve a shooting attack in the middle of your opponent's movement phase, you cannot start to resolve a deny the witch ability with a non-psyker when your opponent is casting a psychic ability.

Trying to staple lawyer-tight readings onto rules written for a different edition applied to a new rule is... well, you can try, but seems futile to me. Find a fun way forward and move on.

HIWPI - Relic in OP’s Q wouldn’t boost range of Psychic Actions. Anyone who can Deny The Witch can attempt to deny a Psychic Action, and it uses up one of their allowed Deny attempts for the turn (if a one-shot via a Relic or WLT then it’s spent).

Seems to follow spirit and avoid edge cases. YMMV.

Also, meaning of German words is kinda irrelevant to discussing the rules in English, Jidmah. You can’t bear in mind possible translation issues, you can only focus on one language. No one is going to let you make a rules claim based on German grammar/syntax on a game played using English rules.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Also, meaning of German words is kinda irrelevant to discussing the rules in English, Jidmah. You can’t bear in mind possible translation issues, you can only focus on one language. No one is going to let you make a rules claim based on German grammar/syntax on a game played using English rules.

I was just pointing that out because we are both from Germany and it's a common error for Germans to make since the German "wenn" translates to both "when" and "if".

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Trying to staple lawyer-tight readings onto rules written for a different edition applied to a new rule is... well, you can try, but seems futile to me. Find a fun way forward and move on.

HIWPI - Relic in OP’s Q wouldn’t boost range of Psychic Actions. Anyone who can Deny The Witch can attempt to deny a Psychic Action, and it uses up one of their allowed Deny attempts for the turn (if a one-shot via a Relic or WLT then it’s spent).

Seems to follow spirit and avoid edge cases. YMMV.

Also, meaning of German words is kinda irrelevant to discussing the rules in English, Jidmah. You can’t bear in mind possible translation issues, you can only focus on one language. No one is going to let you make a rules claim based on German grammar/syntax on a game played using English rules.

Except it is completely against the RAW so no

There is no edge you are a psyker or you are not

And as a SoB players whose whole army denys the witch none of are units can deny a psychic action

It might very well be intended, because otherwise factions without psykers could both pick abhor the witch and deny their psychic actions.

 p5freak wrote:
It depends on the wording of the rule that lets a non psyker try to deny the witch. Usually it says something like can deny a psychic power as if he is a psyker. This doesn't work for psychic actions, because a psychic action isn't a psychic power. If the rule says something like he can do a deny the witch test, then he could try to deny the psychic action.

Quite the opposite. The basic Deny the Witch rules don't allow you to deny a Psychic Action.

Just having the ability to deny a psychic power doesn't allow you to deny a Psychic Action, whether the unit in question is a Helm-of-Spite Archon, a Sisters of Battle unit or Magnus.

But the Psychic Action-rules-section allow specific units such as Magnus to deny a psychic action, and the rare-rules-section adds the Helm-of-Spite Archon and Sisters to that group of units.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
It might very well be intended, because otherwise factions without psykers could both pick abhor the witch and deny their psychic actions.

Maybe that's the intention, but RAW they can deny actions as per the rare rules sections. So that would need an FAQ to stop Sisters, etc.. denying psychic actions.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Also, meaning of German words is kinda irrelevant to discussing the rules in English, Jidmah. You can’t bear in mind possible translation issues, you can only focus on one language. No one is going to let you make a rules claim based on German grammar/syntax on a game played using English rules.

I was just pointing that out because we are both from Germany and it's a common error for Germans to make since the German "wenn" translates to both "when" and "if".

Nonsense. Of course when can be used in conditional sentences, especially when (!!) the conditional in question is a general rule, not an individual case or event.

3. if ↔ when
3.1. if and when are interchangeable when the statement of the conditional clause is a fact or a general issue (also known as zero conditional)

If you heat ice, it melts.
When you heat ice, it melts

So how about you provide proof that you have permission to resolve a deny the witch ability against a psychic action before claiming RAW?

So far your argument is "I am allowed to select a non-psyker because it counts as a psyker when I select it". The logical flaw of that statement should be obvious.

U02dah4 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Trying to staple lawyer-tight readings onto rules written for a different edition applied to a new rule is... well, you can try, but seems futile to me. Find a fun way forward and move on.

HIWPI - Relic in OP’s Q wouldn’t boost range of Psychic Actions. Anyone who can Deny The Witch can attempt to deny a Psychic Action, and it uses up one of their allowed Deny attempts for the turn (if a one-shot via a Relic or WLT then it’s spent).

Seems to follow spirit and avoid edge cases. YMMV.

Also, meaning of German words is kinda irrelevant to discussing the rules in English, Jidmah. You can’t bear in mind possible translation issues, you can only focus on one language. No one is going to let you make a rules claim based on German grammar/syntax on a game played using English rules.

Except it is completely against the RAW so no

There is no edge you are a psyker or you are not

And as a SoB players whose whole army denys the witch none of are units can deny a psychic action

Haven’t we been over “there’s no point arguing against a HIWPI take” before?

It’s how I’d solve a murky area. YMMV. That was all clearly signposted.

 Jidmah wrote:
So how about you provide proof that you have permission to resolve a deny the witch ability against a psychic action before claiming RAW?

So far your argument is "I am allowed to select a non-psyker because it counts as a psyker when I select it". The logical flaw of that statement should be obvious.

It's not treated as a PSYKER when you select it. It's treated as a PSYKER when resolving certain rules, including resolving a psychic action.

JohnnyHell wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Trying to staple lawyer-tight readings onto rules written for a different edition applied to a new rule is... well, you can try, but seems futile to me. Find a fun way forward and move on.

HIWPI - Relic in OP’s Q wouldn’t boost range of Psychic Actions. Anyone who can Deny The Witch can attempt to deny a Psychic Action, and it uses up one of their allowed Deny attempts for the turn (if a one-shot via a Relic or WLT then it’s spent).

Seems to follow spirit and avoid edge cases. YMMV.

Also, meaning of German words is kinda irrelevant to discussing the rules in English, Jidmah. You can’t bear in mind possible translation issues, you can only focus on one language. No one is going to let you make a rules claim based on German grammar/syntax on a game played using English rules.

Except it is completely against the RAW so no

There is no edge you are a psyker or you are not

And as a SoB players whose whole army denys the witch none of are units can deny a psychic action

Haven’t we been over “there’s no point arguing against a HIWPI take” before?

It’s how I’d solve a murky area. YMMV. That was all clearly signposted.

It's not really murky though. This seems pretty straight forward to me and the rules are clear (perhaps not as well-written as they could be) and not pants-on-head stupid so I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude we should follow them.

FWIW I'm not 100% convinced this is intentional but the rules work as written so I'm not sure invoking HIWPI is helpful here.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
So how about you provide proof that you have permission to resolve a deny the witch ability against a psychic action before claiming RAW?

So far your argument is "I am allowed to select a non-psyker because it counts as a psyker when I select it". The logical flaw of that statement should be obvious.

It's not treated as a PSYKER when you select it. It's treated as a PSYKER when resolving certain rules, including resolving a psychic action.

That last sentence is wrong, though, which is where the point of contention comes up. The rare rules section is only talking about casting and denying psychic powers, not actions. We've already established those two things are different. You never get to be treated as a Psyker because you don't meet the conditions for doing so (Denying a psychic power).