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Hecaton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
It's escalated from panicking to outright hostility towards any "gw apologists" using their "whale" status to buy abox of models. It's pathetic.

The fact that GW has moved to a whale-chasing model to a certain degree is inarguable; the fact that such a model makes for shittier games is also inarguable.

Have they though? I've always viewed it as moving to a false-scarcity market, similar to MTG.
"Certain models never got shelf life outside of their special box set, I need it!"

Which is *much* more a common marketing tactic outside of phone games.

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


They will be less than that unless you think upgrades will be free

And btw 3rd wound is huge pretty much doubling survivability against most guns they need to face

I think they'll be base 28 vs Base 20. I think 8 out of 20 is almost a 50% price increase. I think the +1S is bigger than the +6" but even both together isn't getting you 50% more shooting power. I think they get 0% more fight power. I think a third wound is less than a third and fourth wound on a second body.

no sense arguing with them Breton, the unit hasn;'t even arrived yet and they're panicing,

For some Brian, it's not *just* the point costs, it's the constant downfall of a faction getting ${unit.name}+1.
The rules have been revealed, and there hasn't ever been an update from leak to release ever. Even when the Necron codex had several elites as troops. That was still published lmao.

I'd rather use an 'overpowered' unit than write my list to placate someone's personal and biased opinion so that they don't think I'm a 'GW shill' just for playing the game. The problem with that line of thinking is that 40k is notoriously imbalanced and every few months there's a new OP unit or build. It would be exhausting and extremely hubristic to try and police this and refuse any game where I felt the opponent was using a unit that is undercosted. It would mean hardly ever playing a game. If someone constantly plays extremely OP skew lists or something, maybe I'd think twice, but a boycott for using one unit is ridiculous.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
It's escalated from panicking to outright hostility towards any "gw apologists" using their "whale" status to buy abox of models. It's pathetic.

The fact that GW has moved to a whale-chasing model to a certain degree is inarguable; the fact that such a model makes for shittier games is also inarguable.

Have they though? I've always viewed it as moving to a false-scarcity market, similar to MTG.
"Certain models never got shelf life outside of their special box set, I need it!"

Which is *much* more a common marketing tactic outside of phone games.

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


They will be less than that unless you think upgrades will be free

And btw 3rd wound is huge pretty much doubling survivability against most guns they need to face

I think they'll be base 28 vs Base 20. I think 8 out of 20 is almost a 50% price increase. I think the +1S is bigger than the +6" but even both together isn't getting you 50% more shooting power. I think they get 0% more fight power. I think a third wound is less than a third and fourth wound on a second body.

no sense arguing with them Breton, the unit hasn;'t even arrived yet and they're panicing,

For some Brian, it's not *just* the point costs, it's the constant downfall of a faction getting ${unit.name}+1.
The rules have been revealed, and there hasn't ever been an update from leak to release ever. Even when the Necron codex had several elites as troops. That was still published lmao.

How many points is a heavy intercessor then? How many points are the various Heavy Intercessor weapons options? those are kiiiinda key to knowing how OP something is or isn't.

Breton wrote:

hungryugolino wrote:
people that just so happen to buy the flavor of the month,

String em up!

hungryugolino wrote:
by people that aren't GW apologists or whales themselves

No Real Scotsman plays Gravis!

hungryugolino wrote:
most good faith arguments

hungryugolino wrote:
in the favor of the whale bringing Gravis troops because he plays the right codex and paid the right money for his new toys.

Pay to Win!

hungryugolino wrote:
when by bringing Gravis troops they're violating the implicit rules of good sportsmanship?

What makes a malicious gravis spammer's enjoyment more valuable than the rest of the hobby?

Maybe you should just take them out back and shoot them? If those mangy polecats aren't going to play the way you want them to do they even deserve to live?

Still they're not as bad as those Deathwing spammers who insist on doing all Terminators.

I know you don't have a meaningful rebuttal to the issue of flavor of the month chasing or the people willing to chase such trends, but really, do try and camouflage that better or attempt a rebuttal.

I'll ask again: In the scenario of someone spamming a intentionally unbalanced single-faction unit that skews the game for the worse and in the absence of meaningful equivalents, what makes that "hobbyist" entitled to games that they know full well have been skewed by GW cynically peddling such models at the cost of the health of the hobby and breaking the implicit agreement to play in good faith with the opponent?

Breton wrote:
- Salt Redacted -
Pay to Win!

I mean, 40k is essentially the *meaning* of pay 2 win.
You literally can't argue against that.

Breton wrote:
Maybe you should just take them out back and shoot them?

Even if this is a joke, perhaps you're taking this too personally. Chill bruh

hungryugolino wrote:

Breton wrote:

hungryugolino wrote:
people that just so happen to buy the flavor of the month,

String em up!

hungryugolino wrote:
by people that aren't GW apologists or whales themselves

No Real Scotsman plays Gravis!

hungryugolino wrote:
most good faith arguments

hungryugolino wrote:
in the favor of the whale bringing Gravis troops because he plays the right codex and paid the right money for his new toys.

Pay to Win!

hungryugolino wrote:
when by bringing Gravis troops they're violating the implicit rules of good sportsmanship?

What makes a malicious gravis spammer's enjoyment more valuable than the rest of the hobby?

Maybe you should just take them out back and shoot them? If those mangy polecats aren't going to play the way you want them to do they even deserve to live?

Still they're not as bad as those Deathwing spammers who insist on doing all Terminators.

I know you don't have a meaningful rebuttal to the issue of flavor of the month chasing or the people willing to chase such trends, but really, do try and camouflage that better or attempt a rebuttal.

I'll ask again: In the scenario of someone spamming a intentionally unbalanced single-faction unit that skews the game for the worse and in the absence of meaningful equivalents, what makes that "hobbyist" entitled to games that they know full well have been skewed by GW cynically peddling such models at the cost of the health of the hobby and breaking the implicit agreement to play in good faith with the opponent?

dude all your FOTM whining is, is personal attacks. there's no need to rebutt them. As a Space Marine player, I can tell you that unless ehavy intercessors are MUCH cheaper then even the most optimsitic of guesses, the guys looking to min/max will continue to use tatical intercessors.

BrianDavion wrote:

How many points is a heavy intercessor then? How many points are the various Heavy Intercessor weapons options? those are kiiiinda key to knowing how OP something is or isn't.

Yeah, as I said to some it isn't the point costs. It's the pain in seeing a faction getting ${unit.name}+1, and then +1 and +1 again.
I know for a fact I personally get upset about it. I'd much rather see things be unique, and designed with the integrity of the game at heart.

I grew up on 40k, and I wish it stayed this naively awesome game.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Breton wrote:
- Salt Redacted -
Pay to Win!

I mean, 40k is essentially the *meaning* of pay 2 win.
You literally can't argue against that.

honestly I'd probly argue a term used for a video game doesn't really apply to a table top war game like 40k. it's an apples and oranges kinda thing

BrianDavion wrote:

hungryugolino wrote:

Breton wrote:

hungryugolino wrote:
people that just so happen to buy the flavor of the month,

String em up!

hungryugolino wrote:
by people that aren't GW apologists or whales themselves

No Real Scotsman plays Gravis!

hungryugolino wrote:
most good faith arguments

hungryugolino wrote:
in the favor of the whale bringing Gravis troops because he plays the right codex and paid the right money for his new toys.

Pay to Win!

hungryugolino wrote:
when by bringing Gravis troops they're violating the implicit rules of good sportsmanship?

What makes a malicious gravis spammer's enjoyment more valuable than the rest of the hobby?

Maybe you should just take them out back and shoot them? If those mangy polecats aren't going to play the way you want them to do they even deserve to live?

Still they're not as bad as those Deathwing spammers who insist on doing all Terminators.

I know you don't have a meaningful rebuttal to the issue of flavor of the month chasing or the people willing to chase such trends, but really, do try and camouflage that better or attempt a rebuttal.

I'll ask again: In the scenario of someone spamming a intentionally unbalanced single-faction unit that skews the game for the worse and in the absence of meaningful equivalents, what makes that "hobbyist" entitled to games that they know full well have been skewed by GW cynically peddling such models at the cost of the health of the hobby and breaking the implicit agreement to play in good faith with the opponent?

dude all your FOTM whining is, is personal attacks. there's no need to rebutt them. As a Space Marine player, I can tell you that unless ehavy intercessors are MUCH cheaper then even the most optimsitic of guesses, the guys looking to min/max will continue to use tatical intercessors.

Concession accepted via you avoiding the question I suppose. I guess we know what your response to intentionally imbalanced units meant to attract whales would be?

All the people that want to boycott games because of a unit that hasn't been released yet, that we don't know the points of yet and are doing it just to get attention please do so. That leaves the rest of us to enjoy playing a game we've invested time and money in without the constant nonsense your spouting.

 Rolsheen wrote:
All the people that want to boycott games because of a unit that hasn't been released yet, that we don't know the points of yet and are doing it just to get attention please do so. That leaves the rest of us to enjoy playing a game we've invested time and money in without the constant nonsense your spouting.

FOTM chasers playing with themselves would be the ideal outcome, yes.

hungryugolino wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
All the people that want to boycott games because of a unit that hasn't been released yet, that we don't know the points of yet and are doing it just to get attention please do so. That leaves the rest of us to enjoy playing a game we've invested time and money in without the constant nonsense your spouting.

FOTM chasers playing with themselves would be the ideal outcome, yes.

Aye, that's why tournament and casual games exist.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Breton wrote:
- Salt Redacted -
Pay to Win!

I mean, 40k is essentially the *meaning* of pay 2 win.
You literally can't argue against that.

honestly I'd probly argue a term used for a video game doesn't really apply to a table top war game like 40k. it's an apples and oranges kinda thing

Hmm, if the goal of the business is still the exact same (Make the consumer buy the product), why does it deserve a different term?
I've done some work marketing things like this IRL, and it's all essentially the same concept.

Let's not, and just say we did.

Moving on.