Syll’Esske fighting twice

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Jidmah**

So, we found yet another weird rules interaction. A player charged a unit with Syll'Esske and some fiends of slanesh which prevent them from falling back.

Is Syll'Esske allowed to not fight a second time in order to stay in combat?

Relevant rules:

Datasheet wrote:Deadly Symbiosis: When this model is chosen to fight with for the first time in the Fight phase, it can only make attacks with one of its equipped weapons. The first time this model finishes its Consolidation step of the Fight phase, it can immediately fight again, but when it does so all of its attacks must be made with the other weapon (if this model charged this turn, these attacks can still only target units that it declared a charge against in the previous phase).

Rare rules wrote:FIGHT AGAIN
Some rules allow units to fight again in the Fight phase, or fight ‘as if it were the Fight phase’. Such rules cannot be used on a unit unless it is eligible to fight at the time when that rule is used. Remember that a unit is only eligible to fight if it is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit, or if it made a charge move in the same turn. In addition, all the normal targeting rules apply to a unit that is using a rule to fight again (e.g. if the unit made a charge move this turn it can still only target enemy units it declared a charge against or that performed a Heroic Intervention).

If a rule allows a unit to fight again, then it will pile in, make close combat attacks and consolidate again. Treat each time a unit is selected to fight as a separate unit being selected to fight for all rules purposes. This means that after it has fought for the first time in a phase, your opponent can choose an eligible unit to fight with before you fight with your unit for a second time (you need not consecutively use both of the unit's opportunities to fight — unless of course there are no other eligible units to select to fight with). If such a unit charged this turn, it will still fight both times before any units that did not charge. Note that any rule that interrupts the normal sequence of who fights first can be used to fight inbetween the unit's first and second fight.

If a rule is used to make a unit fight again at the end of the Fight phase, and the unit ends its consolidation move within Engagement Range of any enemy units that have not yet been selected to fight during this phase, those units are now eligible units and your opponent can fight with them before the phase ends.

**BaconCatBug**

I don't see how prohibiting falling back interacts with fight again?

It's unclear whether "can" is optional or not. It was FAQed that "can" is optional in 8th (except where it was FAQd to not be optional), so you'll need to decide pre-game which English language definition you're going to use.

Personally, I am on the side of "can" is not optional, whereas "may" is optional.

**Jidmah**

It's only relevant to prevent answers akin to "why would it matter?". If the fiends weren't involved there would be little reason to not just wipe the unit out.

But thank you for your answer - the can/may issue is exactly the problem and it doesn't help the discussion my group is having that they translate to the same word in German.

**BaconCatBug**

Jidmah wrote:
It's only relevant to prevent answers akin to "why would it matter?". If the fiends weren't involved there would be little reason to not just wipe the unit out.

But thank you for your answer - the can/may issue is exactly the problem and it doesn't help the discussion my group is having that they translate to the same word in German.

Yeah, I wish there was a better answer. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

**Super Ready**

I'm really not sure on why there's any confusion here. Since when has "can" ever meant "must"? That looks optional to me, especially since "must" is already used elsewhere.
...heck, I've just noticed, "must" is used later in the same damn sentence.

**BaconCatBug**

Super Ready wrote:
I'm really not sure on why there's any confusion here. Since when has "can" ever meant "must"? That looks optional to me, especially since "must" is already used elsewhere.
...heck, I've just noticed, "must" is used later in the same damn sentence.

In 8th edition, the sentence "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." was FAQed to say you MUST choose a unit if it is within 1" of an enemy unit, even though it says "can", but also FAQed that "You can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by models in friendly <CHAPTER> units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model." was optional.

**doctortom**

I would say fighting again is not optional based on what is said in the Rare Rules section "If a rule allows a unit to fight again, then it will pile in, make close combat attacks and consolidate again". There's no indication of it being optional there.

**Super Ready**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Super Ready wrote:
I'm really not sure on why there's any confusion here. Since when has "can" ever meant "must"? That looks optional to me, especially since "must" is already used elsewhere.
...heck, I've just noticed, "must" is used later in the same damn sentence.
In 8th edition, the sentence "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." was FAQed to say you MUST choose a unit if it is within 1" of an enemy unit, even though it says "can", but also FAQed that "You can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by models in friendly <CHAPTER> units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model." was optional.

I see that first part simply as a correction of a rule that should have read "must" to begin with, hence why it needed FAQ'ing. It doesn't do anything to change the meaning of "can".

doctortom wrote:
I would say fighting again is not optional based on what is said in the Rare Rules section "If a rule allows a unit to fight again, then it will pile in, make close combat attacks and consolidate again". There's no indication of it being optional there.

That's a bit more convincing to me. It's enough of a conflict that I'd be happy to roll off for it under HIWPI.

**Blackie**

In this specific context I think it's pretty safe to assume that the model HAS to fight twice.

**Bilge Rat**

It says 'this model... can immediately fight again'. It is the model that 'can' do something, not the player, so I intepret this to mean that the model 'is able' to make attacks, with the other rules then forcing the player to have it do so. If it said 'The player can have the model fight again' then I think you would have more of an argument for choosing not to.

**Unit1126PLL**

I tend to err on the side of player choice, but I sometimes feel like 9th is a game that plays itself, so IDK what the actual rules are.

**Aijec**

If a unit is eligible to fight it's on the "list" in terms of what is available to fight with when selecting order.

It's pretty clear that the word "can" is used here to make it available as a choice to be used again. It's an option in the sense that you choose the order of when it fights again not if it fights again.

Assuming of course it's in engagement and/or has charged.

**yukishiro1**

I think you do have to fight twice, for the same reason that "any unit in engagement range can be selected to attack" is mandatory. It's a bad use of the English language, but the FAQ from 8th made clear that when they use "can" in the context of units being eligible to fight, it's mandatory. I don't see why it being a fight twice ability would change that.

Now just because you can activate doesn't mean you have to actually fight, mind you. If they pulled all the models within 1" you could activate again, then either pile in to further than 1" or not pile in at all, and then call it a day. Though presumably your opponent isn't going to do that because they want you to wipe the unit.

**Jidmah**

They way I see it, selecting a unit to fight is mandatory, but this ability does not allow you to select them a second time.