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I'm reading through this. I love that it says infantry, swarm and beast benefit from cover while in terrain... but after reading Dense Cover, where it says that aircraft and units with 18+ wounds do not benefit from the -1... Does that mean that everyone else can get the -1 if they are behind it, or in it, or just infantry, swarm and beast? (They are also talking about measuring to the hull to determine if you can benefit, Hull is for vehicles, so its seems you might be able to get some benefit for being in the woods.

Actually I'm trying to understand how everything that is not infantry, swarm, beast, aircraft nor 18+ wounds... could benefit from cover, other than LOS Blocking. Its not like its written particularly clear.


Am I even making sense?

If any unit is behind a terrain piece with dense cover (and that unit isnt an aircraft or a 18+ wounds model, and it isnt within or wholly within), that unit gets -1 to hit, if you cant draw lines from base to base or base to hull, without going through that terrain piece. Normal LOS rules apply as well, so you need to see that unit through windows, wall openings, etc.

The best way to tackle this is to separate terrain rules into two distinct parts.
One is the terrain type - be that hill, building, obstacle or area - and it's here that the infantry/beast/swarm distinction pops up most often.
The other is the terrain traits - this is where Dense Cover, Light Cover, Obscuring et al come in. These do not necessarily follow that same infantry/beast/swarm rule if they're not on a terrain type that carries it, and that's where the distinction for aircraft and 18+ wound models come in.

So if I have a rhino 100% in a woods, does it get cover?

What kind of terrain type are those woods? Are they an obstacle, or area terrain? Does that type exclude Vehicles from getting the benefit of cover?
Once you've established that, what traits do the woods have? Do those traits exclude Vehicles from getting benefit?

 Super Ready wrote:
What kind of terrain type are those woods? Are they an obstacle, or area terrain? Does that type exclude Vehicles from getting the benefit of cover?
Once you've established that, what traits do the woods have? Do those traits exclude Vehicles from getting benefit?

Woods are already defined in the book. And your second question is the OP question I'm asking.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
What kind of terrain type are those woods? Are they an obstacle, or area terrain? Does that type exclude Vehicles from getting the benefit of cover?
Once you've established that, what traits do the woods have? Do those traits exclude Vehicles from getting benefit?

Woods are already defined in the book. And your second question is the OP question I'm asking.

Whatr specifically are you asking?

The rules say there are four categories of terrain features.

The rules also say both players must agree which terrain traits apply to which terrain features.

P.S. Woods are on P. 265 of the BRB

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Woods are already defined in the book. And your second question is the OP question I'm asking.

It's a bit counter-intuitive.

The Obstacle and Area Terrain types can provide the benefit of cover to infantry, beast and swarm models.

Light cover and heavy cover provide benefits to models that have the benefit of cover.

All other terrain traits, including Dense and Obscuring provide their advantages and drawbacks independently of whether you have the benefit of cover or not.

Basically, vehicles never get the benefit of cover from terrain and thus never get a bonus to their save that way. Note that vehicles can get the benefit of cover from other rules like stratagems, army traits or auras and can get a light cover bonus that way.

So woods (Area Terrain: Dense Cover, Breachable, Defensible, Difficult Ground) would interact with a rhino in the following way:
Dense Cover: -1 to hit to a rhino standing behind it, and no bonus to models in the woods
Breachable: Only ever applies to infantry, beasts and swarms
Defensible: Only ever applies to infantry
Difficult Ground: Every unit that does not have FLY loses 2" from their moves and charges

The final interaction the woods can have wiht a rhino is to (potentially) completely block line of sight from a targetting unit (eg an infantryman with a lascannon) to the rhino. If the woods prevent LOS lockon, only LOS independant stuff can fire at , (blocks also smite), the rhino.
That does not get a keyword, as other rules already cover determining line of sight or not to a model based on the physical model for the woods. If they are an abstracted "this green piece of paper REPRESENTS 10 inch tall LOS obscuring WOODS terrain" the two players better both know and agree about that little wrinkle before the game, lest someone hides a baneblade behind it and goes "now your knight can't shoot me, hahah" as a gotchahammer.

True, I was assuming the citadel woods which never block LoS to anything

Oh, and baneblades can be shot even if they are hiding behind obscuring terrain

 Jidmah wrote:
True, I was assuming the citadel woods which never block LoS to anything

Oh, and baneblades can be shot even if they are hiding behind obscuring terrain

Other than wood can have dense trait.

And baneblade can be shot if at least part of it is visible normally. If it's solid wall then obscuring or not he's blocked

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
True, I was assuming the citadel woods which never block LoS to anything

Oh, and baneblades can be shot even if they are hiding behind obscuring terrain

Other than wood can have dense trait.

And baneblade can be shot if at least part of it is visible normally. If it's solid wall then obscuring or not he's blocked

Yes, normal LOS rules still apply. A baneblade doesnt benefit from obscuring, because its 18+ wounds, but if the shooter cant see it, he cant target it.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
True, I was assuming the citadel woods which never block LoS to anything

Oh, and baneblades can be shot even if they are hiding behind obscuring terrain

Other than wood can have dense trait.

And baneblade can be shot if at least part of it is visible normally. If it's solid wall then obscuring or not he's blocked

Context is important, tneva.

Read from Goonhammer, sounds like if you are entirely in or behind the woods, then a rhino gets a -1 to be hit (they had a lot of diagrams, for each possible situation), and if you are in the woods to any degree then you do not suffer a -1 to hit other units elsewhere on the board for the woods that you are in.

Thats almost correct. The models entire base does not need to be in the area of the terrain.

The entire UNIT must be touching or within the terrain, but if part of your base is sticking out you still count as being in the dense.

So many people I encounter use this word touching but no where in the rules can I find this word. Then players use this idea of touching to stand the model next to the terrain and say a tiny sliver of my base is touching this wall so I am on or within the terrain.

I don't thin that standing outside a ruin but touching its wall with the base means that it is on or within

 Nithaniel wrote:
So many people I encounter use this word touching but no where in the rules can I find this word. Then players use this idea of touching to stand the model next to the terrain and say a tiny sliver of my base is touching this wall so I am on or within the terrain.

I don't thin that standing outside a ruin but touching its wall with the base means that it is on or within

Because they want Things To Work The Way They Want, rather than Work They Way They Do.

 Nithaniel wrote:
So many people I encounter use this word touching but no where in the rules can I find this word. Then players use this idea of touching to stand the model next to the terrain and say a tiny sliver of my base is touching this wall so I am on or within the terrain.

I don't thin that standing outside a ruin but touching its wall with the base means that it is on or within

Its still a game(with badly written rules), not a simulation. You have to define pregame when a model is within terrain.

Luckily this edition has an appendix clarifying what "within" is. And yes, touching a piece of terrain with your base is sufficient.

 Jidmah wrote:
Luckily this edition has an appendix clarifying what "within" is. And yes, touching a piece of terrain with your base is sufficient.

You have to do a bit of interpretation with the definition for "within", rules quote:

If a rule says it applies ‘within’ a certain distance, it applies at any distance that is not more than the specified distance. For example, within 1" means any distance that is not more than 1" away.
If a rule says it affects models that are ‘within’, then it applies so long as any part of the model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance.
If a rule says it affects models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if every part of the model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance.

Now... personally I don't mind playing it either way as to whether simply touching counts, and would want to clarify this pre-game as mentioned. Certainly for specific terrain pieces that GW sells themselves (eg Ruins), they don't have a defined base so sometimes touching is the only way to measure that makes sense.

However - I can see the argument that touching something doesn't mean being within it, because that means you're as close as you possibly can be to it, without actually overlapping that boundary.
Imagine if you will an apple sitting on a table. The two are clearly touching, but the apple isn't "within" the table - because the table's hard surface stops it.

Oh boy, there was a lot here.

Here are how I have interpeted the rules.

Most of the cover only grants 'benefits of cover' to beast, swarms and infantery. What 'benefits of cover' are depends upon what tags the cover have. Some of them are not even benefits as it makes it easier to charge you.

Second you have the Dense and Obscuring traits. These raits stand out as if you fit within sertain paramaters you can get the benefit of Dense and Obscuring if you qualify. Providing Dense is over 3" and Pbscuring is over 5".
The only disqualifying things are if you are 18+ wounds or an airplane. The Dense rule gives -1 to hit, Obscuring blocks line of sight.

As far as I can tell Dense and Obscuring are the only terrains that can benefit monsters, vehicles, bikes etc. You also have army rules, like psykick powers etc.

Note that Dense cares about base to base. While Obscure count as true line of sight. So be sure to turn those winged hivetyrants sideways beghind those Obscuring buildings.

Do I have this correct?

What I am unsure about is if a terain have dense but is not 3" tall, do infantery etc. get the -1 to shoot if they benefit from them.

 Super Ready wrote:
Now... personally I don't mind playing it either way as to whether simply touching counts, and would want to clarify this pre-game as mentioned. Certainly for specific terrain pieces that GW sells themselves (eg Ruins), they don't have a defined base so sometimes touching is the only way to measure that makes sense.

For area terrain, you are supposed to define the bounds of the terrain before the game. This is not optional, so you should never run into a case when touching a ruin is the only way to be within its boundaries.

OBSCURING AND DENSE COVER
Obscuring and Dense Cover are two terrain traits introduced with ninth edition that interact with visibility. These rules do not overwrite the normal rules for determining visibility, though - they are in addition to them. Specifically, even though the Obscuring rules state that Aircraft and models with a Wounds characteristic of 18+ can be seen through Obscuring terrain, they are still only visible (and hence eligible) targets if the firing model can physically see them (so if the terrain in question is solid and opaque, they are still not eligible targets). Also, in the same way that Obscuring terrain ‘blocks’ visibility when it is in between the firing model and its intended target, Dense Cover terrain imposes a hit penalty whenever it is between the firing model and its intended target (with the noted exceptions). It is not required for a unit to be fulfilling the criteria of ‘gaining the benefits of cover’, as described for Obstacles and Area Terrain, for this penalty to hit rolls to apply (but also note that any rule that ignores the benefits of cover, or that ignores the benefits of cover that impose a penalty on hit rolls, would still ignore that penalty).