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a_typical_hero wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Seeing there's been no real news of marine nerfs and indeed plenty of buffs while necron buffs havent' been on same level...yeah not expecting meta to go much different. Marines takes up leg up.

That is objectively not true.

I'm too lazy to mention all little details that we already know like Salamanders losing their re-roll to hit part of the Chapter Tactics, but the sole introduction of the CORE keyword and the shown implications are already a nerf.

It would be nerf　if　it was marine　specific thing but as has already been shown necrons have core thing going on as well. Buff/nerf is related to others. If all lose something that's not nerf

tneva82 wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Seeing there's been no real news of marine nerfs and indeed plenty of buffs while necron buffs havent' been on same level...yeah not expecting meta to go much different. Marines takes up leg up.

That is objectively not true.

I'm too lazy to mention all little details that we already know like Salamanders losing their re-roll to hit part of the Chapter Tactics, but the sole introduction of the CORE keyword and the shown implications are already a nerf.

It would be nerf　if　it was marine　specific thing but as has already been shown necrons have core thing going on as well. Buff/nerf is related to others. If all lose something that's not nerf

The point is that only those two codexes have those rules so far, so other, older codexes still have unlimited auras while marines do have limits

Not Online!!! wrote:
looks bad...
Whole top 4 in one faction..

Well, I think this is the tendency we will see not only now but also in the near future.
It may change a bit when new codices will come out. But Necrons are too weak as a contender for Marines.
I guess GW knows this very well but Marines sell too well to change this.

In view of tourneys, having only Marines at top tables makes them a bit lame.
With your IH army, you may battle 2x IH, 1x RG, 1x Sallies and 1x BT.
I guess you will travel to such a tourney once and then start another faction...

tneva82 wrote:
It would be nerf　if　it was marine　specific thing but as has already been shown necrons have core thing going on as well. Buff/nerf is related to others. If all lose something that's not nerf

Unless I'm mistaken, Necron characters only affect INFANTRY units with their auras, with the exception of the newly added Skorpekh Lord who affects DESTROYER CULT units.

While I personally expect most INFANTRY to stay CORE for Necrons, Marines will lose aura effects on most of their vehicles. I see Marine characters as more death star-y / beatstick-y than Necrons. So for example a Captain not being affected by his own re-roll to hit is a big blow for the Thunder hammer configuration.

Just because a nerf affects every faction does not mean that it affects everybody equally.

xerxeskingofking wrote:


The point is that only those two codexes have those rules so far, so other, older codexes still have unlimited auras while marines do have limits

Other codexes don't have superbuffed infantries with +1W and superbuffed weapons with increased damage though. My orks never got re-rolling auras anyway

 wuestenfux wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
looks bad...
Whole top 4 in one faction..

Well, I think this is the tendency we will see not only now but also in the near future.
It may change a bit when new codices will come out. But Necrons are too weak as a contender for Marines.
I guess GW knows this very well but Marines sell too well to change this.

In view of tourneys, having only Marines at top tables makes them a bit lame.
With your IH army, you may battle 2x IH, 1x RG, 1x Sallies and 1x BT.
I guess you will travel to such a tourney once and then start another faction...

Doubt it if motivation is solely winning.

I do attest that their deciscion to leave marines as is, will bite them in the back at some point via lower sales for non marines, yet again.
and by extension then , even less sales overall.

Thrakka has one. Locked to goff. In melee only

What is a rerolling aura? *confused chitin noises*

Ah wait, that thing a Tervigon gives to termagants before she inevitably fries their brains.

*Drukhari similarly confused about what a re-roll aura is*

Joking aside, I'm really happy that an Archon camping next to three Ravagers will no longer be a thing.

This is a really interesting point, and, assuming most of the online community here are UK/US based, leads me to two observations regarding the Australian meta:

For relevance, I'm living in Melbourne, Australia, and have been reasonably involved in the local scene (although not big into competitive play myself, definitely aware of the local meta/comp players/results etc.). One other note is that while the wargaming scene is thriving where it exists, it doesn't necessarily exist everywhere. The first five years I was into the game, I would only have played as many games, since I was out 'Back of Bourke, it wasn't until I moved to the city that I started getting heaps, and this is a pretty common experience.

The first observation is that (particularly in Melbourne, but also generally in Australia) the COVID-19 crisis has knee-capped the competitive scene. Not just for 40k, also for Armada, X-wing, AoS, Fantasy, Warmahordes, Bolt Action, etc.. There were several months in 2019 in which Marines were on top, but since late Nov-Dec last year, games just haven't been happening. With that in mind, Marines simply haven't had the chance to dominate. It takes time for them to 'solidify' their spot at the top, rather than just being a temporarily unbeaten list.

The second observation, and definitely the more interesting one, is that in the last few years of being involved (sometimes down at the flgs multiple days a week, socialising and playing), I've met *maybe* two WAAC-type players. And both of them were known, and generally not encouraged (regarding their 'that guy'-ness, they were definitely encouraged to have more fun).
Plenty of successful tourney players were in the area (I've played many Arc40k test games, etc.), but the core driving idea behind all of them wasn't "I need to bring the most broken list, and win the most games," but rather "Let's throw some dice and have a chinwag while pushing plastic/metal soldiers about!" (not finecast, we're not savages!).
Sure, there was the occasional broken list, but that's just not something I've ever seen *intentionally* chased. People who played marines before, still played marines, and people who played Necrons, Eldar, Orks, Chaos, etc., still played those.
And as such, the competitive marines aren't that big of an issue. Honestly, I've always been surprised whenever I've browsed the online forums with just how much rage there is about the game. Sure, I'd rather a more balanced set of rules, etc., but overall the scene is one of the healthiest fandoms/player bases I've ever seen.


***Bonus Observation (because I couldn't be arsed changing the number above) - the comment about unit availability in Australia is valid. I've never had trouble getting ahold of what I'm after, but it definitely takes time, and I'm only buying things occasionally. Plus, there's the 'Convict Tax' of being in Australia, meaning that take whatever price a mini is in the UK (or US), adjust the exchange rate, add the extra import taxes, and then add an additional 20-40% on the price.


NZ have it even worse, but then again, serves them right

 DoremarNuva wrote:

...

Sure, there was the occasional broken list, but that's just not something I've ever seen *intentionally* chased. People who played marines before, still played marines, and people who played Necrons, Eldar, Orks, Chaos, etc., still played those.
And as such, the competitive marines aren't that big of an issue. Honestly, I've always been surprised whenever I've browsed the online forums with just how much rage there is about the game. Sure, I'd rather a more balanced set of rules, etc., but overall the scene is one of the healthiest fandoms/player bases I've ever seen.

I made the same observation in my local scene. People play the army they always had or pick up new ones based on aesthetics and offers (Indomitus Necrons say hi!). Within those armies players bring (an optimised version of) what they think is cool or fun. So the lists are neither random selections, nor are they netlists.

Online forums feel like Bizarro world sometimes compared to what I see locally.

 DoremarNuva wrote:
Sure, there was the occasional broken list, but that's just not something I've ever seen *intentionally* chased. People who played marines before, still played marines, and people who played Necrons, Eldar, Orks, Chaos, etc., still played those.
And as such, the competitive marines aren't that big of an issue. Honestly, I've always been surprised whenever I've browsed the online forums with just how much rage there is about the game. Sure, I'd rather a more balanced set of rules, etc., but overall the scene is one of the healthiest fandoms/player bases I've ever seen.

I agree about people not chasing metas and all, but when an army become unhealthily powerful as a whole it starts to affect the games of "normal" games as well. People have bought/shared indominus boxes and many new player have marine armies which are pretty much intercessors plus one of everything primaris and many aren't even playing of top dog chapters. You don't need to be a meta-chaser to have Eradicators, Aggressors, Intercessors and re-roll everything ever, that's just how most people build a primaris army..
When our group is organizing games right now, every other player tells you "I'm open for everything but marines", because people are sick of fighting an uphill battle against strong statlines, powerful weapons, doctrines, stratagems to react to any situation, shock assault and bolter drill. On the other hand you have a marine player actively working towards losing the game to give the eldar aspect warrior army an illusion of a fighting chance.

 Jidmah wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
No, marines (and MEQ, which i would include DG/Custode army setups in) are definitely the "meta army to beat" everywhere.

One of the main reason why lists labeled as "DG" are doing good are nurglings, which is neither a Death Guard unit nor MEQ.

In almost all results I could find DG aren't anywhere near the top, in some regions they are even a bottom tier faction.

"DG are great in 9th" appears to be nothing but an urban myth. The game is not kind to a slow army with little firepower.

Nurglings are not, in fact, the reason DG lists sit at the top when they do.

They are one useful tool in a pile of hard to kill models.

A current winning list in the meta focuses hard on denying secondaries and dying too slowly to be forced off primaries, and only really incidentally killing the enemy. DG are super well positioned for this, as, ironically, Daemons turned out to be. So you're seeing a lot of lists that are based around piles of tough units with a vanguard element and one hammer unit to push a contested objective at an opportune point. And this list is winning plenty, and this is before the major buffs DG are standing to see shortly.

 Jidmah wrote:

I agree about people not chasing metas and all, but when an army become unhealthily powerful as a whole it starts to affect the games of "normal" games as well. People have bought/shared indominus boxes and many new player have marine armies which are pretty much intercessors plus one of everything primaris and many aren't even playing of top dog chapters. You don't need to be a meta-chaser to have Eradicators, Aggressors, Intercessors and re-roll everything ever, that's just how most people build a primaris army..
When our group is organizing games right now, every other player tells you "I'm open for everything but marines", because people are sick of fighting an uphill battle against strong statlines, powerful weapons, doctrines, stratagems to react to any situation, shock assault and bolter drill. On the other hand you have a marine player actively working towards losing the game to give the eldar aspect warrior army an illusion of a fighting chance.

That's a fair point, and I'm not saying I don't see marine lists all over the place, but there is a big difference between a Marine list which is heavily optimised, and one which is thrown together from units people have around - when it comes to casual play, I'd say I probably lost more than I won against marines, but it was never oppressive. Yeah, the re-rolls can seem a bit excessive, but they still die easily enough when my lychguard start cutting them up

And regarding the competitive scene, I definitely tend to see more varied lists than just Marines - with a generally more enjoyment-focused player base, tournament lists can be fun, janky attempts to get a certain unit to work, or play heavily into an uncommonly-used mechanic.
Besides, even with Marines the way they are, I'll take them over the 7th triptide or Eldar lists

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