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 Xenomancers wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

8th was a soup eddition for the most part. Marines are specifically a no soup faction now. It might be this way moving forward for everyone but...until then it must be aknowledged. Marines are basically bared competitively from taking allies where no one else is. Except armies that have no allies ofc.

1 WTAF does 8th edition have any relevence to a discussion of 9th edition or the current broken mess that is "Balanced points for 9th edition CA2020".
2 9th edition already made soup at best a sub optimal way to play competitively with the CP system.
3 So those same armies that got shafted for all of 8th with no way to abuse Allies don't have any benifit while marines get free bonuses with no points costs, but thats a downside for marines?

Like seriously do you actually stop and think before you post or do you just hope that if you throw enough posts up people will just accept your points?

Free bonus with no cost - literally every army gets free bonus with no cost.

lol, such nonsense, especially when these "free boni " ranged from actually detrimental to completly broken rules piles upon piles.

What rule for marines is broken? Compared to say...power from pain?

9 ppw T4 3+ bodies. Without going into their freebies.

SecondTime wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

8th was a soup eddition for the most part. Marines are specifically a no soup faction now. It might be this way moving forward for everyone but...until then it must be aknowledged. Marines are basically bared competitively from taking allies where no one else is. Except armies that have no allies ofc.

1 WTAF does 8th edition have any relevence to a discussion of 9th edition or the current broken mess that is "Balanced points for 9th edition CA2020".
2 9th edition already made soup at best a sub optimal way to play competitively with the CP system.
3 So those same armies that got shafted for all of 8th with no way to abuse Allies don't have any benifit while marines get free bonuses with no points costs, but thats a downside for marines?

Like seriously do you actually stop and think before you post or do you just hope that if you throw enough posts up people will just accept your points?

Free bonus with no cost - literally every army gets free bonus with no cost.

lol, such nonsense, especially when these "free boni " ranged from actually detrimental to completly broken rules piles upon piles.

What rule for marines is broken? Compared to say...power from pain?

9 ppw T4 3+ bodies. Without going into their freebies.

might as well be 18PPW with the amount of 2 damage weapons in the game.

"might as well be 18PPW with the amount of 2 damage weapons in the game."

Umm no. There's tons of 1 damage attacks.

That being said, I need to watch some of these batreps, because I can't believe the marine win rates are this low.

SecondTime wrote:
"might as well be 18PPW with the amount of 2 damage weapons in the game."

Umm no. There's tons of 1 damage attacks.

That being said, I need to watch some of these batreps, because I can't believe the marine win rates are this low.

Two words: Mirror Matches.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
"might as well be 18PPW with the amount of 2 damage weapons in the game."

Umm no. There's tons of 1 damage attacks.

That being said, I need to watch some of these batreps, because I can't believe the marine win rates are this low.

Two words: Mirror Matches.

Oh..... yeah.

SecondTime wrote:
"might as well be 18PPW with the amount of 2 damage weapons in the game."

Umm no. There's tons of 1 damage attacks.

That being said, I need to watch some of these batreps, because I can't believe the marine win rates are this low.

There really isn't. There is extreme high volume attacks and multi damage attacks. You should not include in your lists anything that can't kill a space marine effectively. Does this make a lot of weapons useless? Yep. It has ALWAYS been that way. What game do you play where basic bolters have ever killed things?

 Xenomancers wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
"might as well be 18PPW with the amount of 2 damage weapons in the game."

Umm no. There's tons of 1 damage attacks.

That being said, I need to watch some of these batreps, because I can't believe the marine win rates are this low.

There really isn't. There is extreme high volume attacks and multi damage attacks. You should not include in your lists anything that can't kill a space marine effectively. Does this make a lot of weapons useless? Yep. It has ALWAYS been that way. What game do you play where basic bolters have ever killed things?

Before 9th, they killed my DC just fine. AP 0 is fine vs 1W 3+. I was getting DC crippled by lasguns before I started chronic tripointing. Marines need like 1.5 W or something.

Not all armies can make good lists with mass 2 damage. And then dreads show up with their -1 damage.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
"might as well be 18PPW with the amount of 2 damage weapons in the game."

Umm no. There's tons of 1 damage attacks.

That being said, I need to watch some of these batreps, because I can't believe the marine win rates are this low.

Two words: Mirror Matches.

https://d1w82usnq70pt2.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/40k_H2H_Faction_10-2020_FIXED.png
I invite you to look at the head to head win rates section in the OP.
CSM have a 59% win rate against marines but a 39% WR against custodes and a 29% WR against Quins in this data set...Yet marines win rate is artificially low because of mirror matches?
Custodies have a winning record against every faction. The only faction they aren't over 50% is against themselves LOL.
Quins have a winning record vs every faction except GK...Which seems more like an anomaly than anything. Though GK do better against invunes than most armies.

It's not mirror matches dude. Probably the biggest factor is 9th editions rule set more than anything.

Quinns have always been disgusting but at least you had 1 turn to blow them up before your whole army got shredded and stuck in melee. Now you have 0 turns.
Custodes have always been hard to beat in objectives but now you can never shoot them and have to face them in melee? Are you kidding me? How can I possible beat custodies in melee?

The game needs less terrain and also need objectives to be scored at the end of the turn and not the beginning.

In any case - this is the most useful piece of data in this post.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

SecondTime wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
"might as well be 18PPW with the amount of 2 damage weapons in the game."

Umm no. There's tons of 1 damage attacks.

That being said, I need to watch some of these batreps, because I can't believe the marine win rates are this low.

There really isn't. There is extreme high volume attacks and multi damage attacks. You should not include in your lists anything that can't kill a space marine effectively. Does this make a lot of weapons useless? Yep. It has ALWAYS been that way. What game do you play where basic bolters have ever killed things?

Before 9th, they killed my DC just fine. AP 0 is fine vs 1W 3+. I was getting DC crippled by lasguns before I started chronic tripointing. Marines need like 1.5 W or something.

Not all armies can make good lists with mass 2 damage. And then dreads show up with their -1 damage.

Okay so...marines getting killed at a high rate vs lasguns. Is literally the reason that marines and terms have more wounds now. Literally the exact reason. Guardsmen fighting against marines. Should lose just like marines going against custodian guard or MAN or something. It is the "there is always a bigger fish" issue.

You pay more points to overpower weaker units...not to die at the same rate as them...otherwise there is no reason to do anything but take the weakest and most numerous units. Because in every case you will have an advantage. if equal points of chaff beats equal points of elites straight up (its a wash) then the horde wins every time because they always win / board control vs elites.

-1 damage dreads is an issue. IMO the only excessively OP things marines have atm.
Dreads -1 damage. Erradicators. Core keyword over applied. The rest is just a bunch of good units which aren't over the top by much if any (lots of armies have units at this level).