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Yeah, there isn't a release debate

Rest of this year: SW/BA/DW supplements + Death guard codex
'Early 2021' : DA supplement + unnamed Xenos codex.

Everything else: after that.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

GW won't go away from the D6 system

I'm not sure 1W T3 models with a 5++, are actually more durable than 2W, T5, 5+++ deathguard.

It always depends on cost, but imagine you gave Gaunts a 5++ for free just because they moved super quick.

It does depend on cost. A tyranid priced like an eldar that has a 5++ because they move super quick is called a genestealer, and I don't believe they're generally considered overly durable. Despite also being T4.

EDIT: And a fast T3 model with a 5+ invul save is called a daemonette. Although I don't think anyone is strongly advocating for the increase in eldar durability being free. Marines paid a couple of points for their durability boost. Eldar prices would need to be adjusted too.

Well, in general Aeldari Troops already payed for something. Wyches went up 3 points (from 8 to 11) and I'm not sure they are much better than your example, a 7 (iirc) point Daemonette.

It’s bad for special save to be exclusive to eldar. Exceptions on top of exceptions proliferate too much.

 Vaktathi wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
There’s really only one skill for shooting ATM, which is hitting on 4+/3+/2+. It’s pretty bs in a shooting based game. There should be a dodge save mechanic for all armies and eldar should be the best at it. Like, if your model has more attacks than the model shooting it that means it’s more veteran/elite and it gets a 5++ on top of its normal save. Then eldar can have 2a, or 3a for aspect warriors and wyches, and dodge primaris shooting. They’re still strength 3 it doesn’t exactly make them monsters.

Of course primaris also become good at dodging lasgun and pulse rifle shots, which seems fine for an elite army.

I'm going to be real honest, I don't see anyone dodging laser fire, no matter how elite they are

More to the point, matrix-dodging gunfire in small arms engagements like this isn't really a thing, you put a putz every day person and a Navy Seal or Olympic gold medal gymnast at the wrong end of a 100 yard rifle range and the number of trigger pulls needed to tag any of em probably isn't any different.

Now, Flames of War had a concept something like what you're talking about, where the better trained/experienced an opponent was, the harder they were to hit. Conscripts are hit on a 2+, Trained troops on a 3+, Veteran troops on a 4+, with various modifiers for range, cover, etc. The shooter's skill doesn't matter as everyone is just setting the range on their sight and pulling the trigger and most of the process is mechanized, it's the ability of the target to know when to move between MG bursts, how to properly utilize cover, recognize incoming shell fire, knowledge of likely fire patterns, etc that determines hit rates. However it's still not a comparative thing, both Veteran Troops and Recruits will hit the same target at the same rate.

Flames of war is the inspiration. It’s like do you know when to stick your head out of cover to shoot, or is an elite trooper so much better than you that he’s got his sights on top of before you can even get your bearing

It’s a universal way to make something harder to kill other than W, and unlike other invulnerable saves the other player can defeat it, eg choose to direct high attacks units against it.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


theyre not, its just eldar hate with no real thought behind it.

I can't say what people that played editions pre 8th think or feel, but I can garente you that people that got o play vs eldar in 8th have many thoughts and feelings regarding to what could be done with them , and why is it warrented to give them a blanket +4 inv if they move. And as harlequins are already showing in 9th, a blanket inv all around the army coupled with fast movment gives an army that is very powerful.


But if it is based on lore, then lets go lore. One of the tyranid brainy things soloed a whole eldar craftworld, same with single DG. now GK killed the brainy thing with a squad of strikes, and banish GD on a daily basis. I then require my dudes to have the rules they have in the lore too. Chaos and psykers litteraly melting when GK enter the battlefield, paladins being able to kill multiple demons in the nude, so in armour with weapons they probably should have stats closer to those of custodes. Psy reactive rounds from GK stormbolters make wraithbone wither, so they should get some anti demon anti eldar vehicle extra rule. Just to be true to true to the lore and make GK more like specilised Custodes, then high cost marines.

Ah in one old codex I read that they also have some sort of a mist around them which make hiting them from range and melee practicaly impossible. I will accept it being represented by a +4inv too. We have a rule that doesn't let our invs go lower then that anyway.

Lol I forgot about The Aegis shooting protection that barely did anything at all.

Why does it have to be “ if they move” when the opponent can’t do anything to get through the inv of units, and the elder can just move every turn

Karol wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


theyre not, its just eldar hate with no real thought behind it.

I can't say what people that played editions pre 8th think or feel, but I can garente you that people that got o play vs eldar in 8th have many thoughts and feelings regarding to what could be done with them , and why is it warrented to give them a blanket +4 inv if they move. And as harlequins are already showing in 9th, a blanket inv all around the army coupled with fast movment gives an army that is very powerful.


But if it is based on lore, then lets go lore. One of the tyranid brainy things soloed a whole eldar craftworld, same with single DG. now GK killed the brainy thing with a squad of strikes, and banish GD on a daily basis. I then require my dudes to have the rules they have in the lore too. Chaos and psykers litteraly melting when GK enter the battlefield, paladins being able to kill multiple demons in the nude, so in armour with weapons they probably should have stats closer to those of custodes. Psy reactive rounds from GK stormbolters make wraithbone wither, so they should get some anti demon anti eldar vehicle extra rule. Just to be true to true to the lore and make GK more like specilised Custodes, then high cost marines.

Ah in one old codex I read that they also have some sort of a mist around them which make hiting them from range and melee practicaly impossible. I will accept it being represented by a +4inv too. We have a rule that doesn't let our invs go lower then that anyway.

its about both a fluff and a gameplay persective that the suggestion is being made.
Eldars are supposed to be a dying race, with ultra strict behaviour to prevent them from being exterminated on the battlefield or to slaanesh. They're quick and agile in the fluff, with some of being too fast for a basic human (guardsmen) to see properly as they move.

On the tabletop, this doesn't translate well. Theyre easy to kill because they get bad saves, so you end up with unfluffy lists. Keep in mind that i'm not talking about the good units of the codex, which are good because theyre resilient (wave serpent, shining spears, wraith units), i'm talking about aspect warriors, windriders, phoenix lords.

One solution to that is to merge the fluff and tabletop and make them "dodge" attacks in the shape of either -1 to hits or invulnerable saves (cant wound me if you never actually hit me).

The reason harlequins are doing well right now is that theyre a marine counter. Especially the marines that spam their heavy weapons. When i play my clowns, seeing my opponent's intercessors kitted out with the 4 -2 2 guns makes me so happy because i know they wont be able to go through all my guys.

the 4++ isn't OP either, GK can get a 4+ save against -2AP weapons too, and i think that my vehicles having a 4++ to compensate for their T5 (the same as a dude in gravis armor) is fair.

If you want to kill harlequins, spam bolters on them , yes, even the vehicles.

Oh , and GK vs Demons is already a shitmatchup and i feel like mechanics that "counter" specific armies should not be in the game (3DMG smite, the demon strat that brings back demons that were killed by GK, death to the false emperor, the reroll against xenos for deathwatch, etc), they all make these matchups too swingy to be enjoyable and balanced.

How would people feel about rolling 2d6 and discarding the lowest if moved for armor saves?
Obviously not for all units.. But some of the "quick and dodge" units

In lieu of modifiers being uncapped.. re-roll to saves or something similar is the only other way to get more durability IMO.

However, a workaround would also be to around the modifier cap by reducing BS (you can reduce BS and also modify hit roll on top of each other) or having a 5+ to hit transhuman rule.

However, this all has inherent problems with affecting different armies disproportionately.

Personly I would like the cap to be moved to -2 and keep 6 always hit. I think that would be the fairest way to tackle hit modifier shenanigans (which I think they should have done in the first place)

I really dislike how currently if you disadvantage yourself (shooting after advancing, moving and shooting heavy weapon etc.) you take no actual penalty for opponents' modifiers or terrain. I think this is a really stupid design and needs to be changed asap...

 Argive wrote:
How would people feel about rolling 2d6 and discarding the lowest if moved for armor saves?
Obviously not for all units.. But some of the "quick and dodge" units

Nope nope nope nope!

Do me a favor, see how long it takes to roll, say, 25 4+ saves.
Now do it again, only each save has to be rolled individually with two dice, dropping the lower one.

Completely disregarding any balance, it just takes too damn long.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Argive wrote:
How would people feel about rolling 2d6 and discarding the lowest if moved for armor saves?
Obviously not for all units.. But some of the "quick and dodge" units

Nope nope nope nope!

Do me a favor, see how long it takes to roll, say, 25 4+ saves.
Now do it again, only each save has to be rolled individually with two dice, dropping the lower one.

Completely disregarding any balance, it just takes too damn long.

Fully agree. Double nope.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Argive wrote:
How would people feel about rolling 2d6 and discarding the lowest if moved for armor saves?
Obviously not for all units.. But some of the "quick and dodge" units

Nope nope nope nope!

Do me a favor, see how long it takes to roll, say, 25 4+ saves.
Now do it again, only each save has to be rolled individually with two dice, dropping the lower one.

Completely disregarding any balance, it just takes too damn long.

Fully agree. Double nope.

Perhaps if the game system wasn't constantly trying to add more, and more dice to every turn...

But why? If I have to sit through 70+ attack dice.. you can sit through my 20 save rolls.. Ya know ?

Aside from the issues of it slowing everything down, it means that Dark Eldar are still being punished for being true to their fluff and not having good armour saves.

'Oh good, I get to roll 2d6 and discard the lowest. That will definitely help me make this 7+ armour save.'

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Argive wrote:
How would people feel about rolling 2d6 and discarding the lowest if moved for armor saves?
Obviously not for all units.. But some of the "quick and dodge" units

Nope nope nope nope!

Do me a favor, see how long it takes to roll, say, 25 4+ saves.
Now do it again, only each save has to be rolled individually with two dice, dropping the lower one.

Completely disregarding any balance, it just takes too damn long.

Fully agree. Double nope.

Perhaps if the game system wasn't constantly trying to add more, and more dice to every turn...

d6 system runs out of ways to add depth. More dice is often the easiest way.

 Argive wrote:

However, a workaround would also be to around the modifier cap by reducing BS (you can reduce BS and also modify hit roll on top of each other) or having a 5+ to hit transhuman rule.

I really dislike how currently if you disadvantage yourself (shooting after advancing, moving and shooting heavy weapon etc.) you take no actual penalty for opponents' modifiers or terrain. I think this is a really stupid design and needs to be changed asap...

Noooooo to fething modifiers on a D6 system with 5 valid values and half of them being reserved for superhumans even -2 modifiers take 66% of an armies firepower away.
It would be less egregious if we didn't have to pay more points for higher BS skill but you know it is how it is and loosing 66% of your armies damage output just doesn't work.

Making it a flat 5+ would be better.

pelicaniforce wrote:
It’s bad for special save to be exclusive to eldar. Exceptions on top of exceptions proliferate too much.

 Vaktathi wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
There’s really only one skill for shooting ATM, which is hitting on 4+/3+/2+. It’s pretty bs in a shooting based game. There should be a dodge save mechanic for all armies and eldar should be the best at it. Like, if your model has more attacks than the model shooting it that means it’s more veteran/elite and it gets a 5++ on top of its normal save. Then eldar can have 2a, or 3a for aspect warriors and wyches, and dodge primaris shooting. They’re still strength 3 it doesn’t exactly make them monsters.

Of course primaris also become good at dodging lasgun and pulse rifle shots, which seems fine for an elite army.

I'm going to be real honest, I don't see anyone dodging laser fire, no matter how elite they are

More to the point, matrix-dodging gunfire in small arms engagements like this isn't really a thing, you put a putz every day person and a Navy Seal or Olympic gold medal gymnast at the wrong end of a 100 yard rifle range and the number of trigger pulls needed to tag any of em probably isn't any different.

Now, Flames of War had a concept something like what you're talking about, where the better trained/experienced an opponent was, the harder they were to hit. Conscripts are hit on a 2+, Trained troops on a 3+, Veteran troops on a 4+, with various modifiers for range, cover, etc. The shooter's skill doesn't matter as everyone is just setting the range on their sight and pulling the trigger and most of the process is mechanized, it's the ability of the target to know when to move between MG bursts, how to properly utilize cover, recognize incoming shell fire, knowledge of likely fire patterns, etc that determines hit rates. However it's still not a comparative thing, both Veteran Troops and Recruits will hit the same target at the same rate.

Flames of war is the inspiration. It’s like do you know when to stick your head out of cover to shoot, or is an elite trooper so much better than you that he’s got his sights on top of before you can even get your bearing

It’s a universal way to make something harder to kill other than W, and unlike other invulnerable saves the other player can defeat it, eg choose to direct high attacks units against it.

I kind of like the thought of a dodge. It doesn't invalidate AP, but a problem I see is that it shifts your choice to higher shot platforms since missing a single shot to a dodge on an expensive gun wouldn't be very tolerable.

pelicaniforce wrote:
It’s bad for special save to be exclusive to eldar. Exceptions on top of exceptions proliferate too much.

Real-talk since I threw the concept out there:
It's not "exclusive to Eldar". It would be specific to their assault-themed units, which tend to have issues with survival given they're waving swords around like maniacs and in many cases even don't have pistols. It opens up a specific rule for several similar units for both of the 'core' Eldar factions(Drukhari and Craftworlds) while also adding some 'oomph' to their 'elite' faction in the form of Harlequins.

Obviously a rule like this wouldn't apply to, say, Dark Reapers or Guardians or Kabalites. But it would be on Wyches, Banshees, Swooping Hawks, Scourges, Troupes, Hellions, and maybe all forms of jetbikes and Vypers/Venoms but not heavier vehicles.

A similar rule could easily be added to other armies where applicable. The idea of 'speedy units that are hard to hit' should not be exclusive to one faction. I'd definitely say that the Sicarian Ruststalkers would be a good spot to throw this rule into a Skitarii army, Genestealers for GSC+Tyranids, Lictors for Tyranids, and any Atalan units that don't take a Wolfquad for GSC as well.

"What about Warp Spiders and Shadow Spectres?! They should be fast too!", I can hear Eldar players thinking...

You're right! But their speed comes from a different kind of setup. Warp Spiders do mini-'hops' through the Warp. Shadow Spectres can seemingly phase through material. Warp Spiders should be able to, [i]with a potential of Perils of the Warp-esque downsides, move forward their normal amount(no Advancing!) then attempt to 'reset' back to their starting point after shooting or when charged.

Shadow Spectres are a bit more difficult to nail down for a concept. A big one I keep coming to is that if declared as a target for shooting, they should be able to take a Leadership test. If they pass? They move a distance directly away from the firing unit. Make it only work once per phase, yadda yadda yadda.

Sorry Drukhari and Harlequin, I don't have more thoughts on you guys at the moment. I'd definitely pass the Shadow Spectre idea over to Harlequins too though. It feels very appropriate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I kind of like the thought of a dodge. It doesn't invalidate AP, but a problem I see is that it shifts your choice to higher shot platforms since missing a single shot to a dodge on an expensive gun wouldn't be very tolerable.

Truthfully, that's kinda the point. Someone shouldn't be throwing lascannon shots at Howling Banshees anyways.

Exceptions could be made, obviously, for Blast or Indirect Fire weapons. Can't really dodge something if you didn't know it was coming after all.

 Xenomancers wrote:
d6 system runs out of ways to add depth. More dice is often the easiest way.

Don't blame the D6 for the game's narrow design space. There's nothing wrong with D6s; the problem is trying to retrofit new game concepts via bespoke mechanics onto a system that was never designed with them in mind.

This idea of a dodge save for certain units is a clunky means of representing the concept that some units are harder to hit than others. That could easily be baked into the core mechanics as a defense stat, turning the to-hit value into an opposed comparison as it is with strength vs toughness. Then that could facilitate concealment, evasion, range modifiers, target size, and obscuration (eg smoke) as a core mechanic, rather than needing clunky modifier caps or bespoke dodge saves.

The game currently says that a skyscraper-sized Titan standing stationary three feet in front of you is just as hard to hit as an Eldar warrior a mile away dodging through the terrain at full speed. That's not the D6's fault. Trying to add a new dodge system in now is not going to work; if the designers want units to be able to dodge fire in a system that has no mechanics to represent that, the best we can get is an invuln save, or an extra wound, or something else that mechanically represents physical toughness but is being shoehorned into the role.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
2 wound mini marines is literally just a ploy to get rid of stocks of models they aren't going to produce anymore. Since GW has learned pretty well by now - rules sell models.

Damn, and I thought GW tries to sell me the army I already own again by making Primaris better than Oldmarines.

And the second statement is - again and again - proven wrong by looking at the recent releases.

No, the statement is right, sorta. I mean, models with rules to play them in the tabletop sell better than model without rules to play them on the battletop. So Xenomancer is technically correct. The best kind of correct.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
how are we even going to let Eldar live up to their fluff on the tabletop when every marine has 2W?

Up all eldars weapons to D2. Also double their attacks/shots.

no. no no no. marines are sold as being a tough army that can take a hit. then GW handed out tha bility to kill marines like candy to everyone else. GW has finally given mariens the durability they need. give out 2d weapons like candy and Marines are reduced once more to "expensive guard paying for gak that's useless"

If you want that, play custodes.

Game balance should not be sacrificed on the altar of bolter porn fluff.

BrianDavion wrote:
no. no no no. marines are sold as being a tough army that can take a hit. then GW handed out tha bility to kill marines like candy to everyone else.

Marines were, for a long time, described as being as tough as Orks, as well-armored as the heaviest Aspect Warriors, and universally armed with the best weapons available to the Imperium. They could take a hit- they were T4 where most factions were T3, and had 3+ saves where most factions were around 5+.

Blame bolter porn novels for elevating their 'true' power level beyond that.

Well, eventually, anyway.

Its useful to remember this isn't the first marine upgrade.

They started life with T3 and a 4+ save, and were happily slaughtered by shuriken catapults and orks with mass bolter fire (This also dating back before ork shooting was nerfed and before their Strength and WS buff).

Heck, they were even honest about the rationalization for the upgrade.

A couple of years ago, when the game first came out, Space Marines were easily able to take on the likes of Orks, Eldar and whatever else the WH40K player cared to throw at them. However, over the ensuing years new models and new rules for their enemies have gradually shifted the balance of power, so that the once might Space Marines are now looking a little less heroic. Of course this is hardly appropriate!

Yeah. That was it. It just wasn't appropriate that space marines weren't top dog.

So came the +1 T, +1 to hit in close combat (because space marine power armor was more special than other power armor) and special morale rules.

This was in WD first, and reprinted in the WH40K Compilation in 1991. Same as the first craftworlds fluff and rules, as well as the genestealer invasion force and cults.

Voss wrote:
Well, eventually, anyway.

Its useful to remember this isn't the first marine upgrade.

They started life with T3 and a 4+ save, and were happily slaughtered by shuriken catapults and orks with mass bolter fire (This also dating back before ork shooting was nerfed and before their Strength and WS buff).

Heck, they were even honest about the rationalization for the upgrade.

A couple of years ago, when the game first came out, Space Marines were easily able to take on the likes of Orks, Eldar and whatever else the WH40K player cared to throw at them. However, over the ensuing years new models and new rules for their enemies have gradually shifted the balance of power, so that the once might Space Marines are now looking a little less heroic. Of course this is hardly appropriate!

Yeah. That was it. It just wasn't appropriate that space marines weren't top dog.

So came the +1 T, +1 to hit in close combat (because space marine power armor was more special than other power armor) and special morale rules.

This was in WD first, and reprinted in the WH40K Compilation in 1991. Same as the first craftworlds fluff and rules, as well as the genestealer invasion force and cults.

Somehow it's always justified for Marines but no one else.

GW have actively nerfed the eldar since 2nd ed while still pedalling the 'speed as defence' fluff and the power of exarchs.

GW makes excuses to buff marines but not only doesn't do that for other factions, they basically punish them for daring to have things that rival marines.

It's 'hardly appropriate' that exarchs aren't death machines that stride the battlefield as reborn heroes of old, or that the avatar is crap, or that warlocks aren't master Jedi psyker warriors who fill their psychic power with training of khaine.

It's hardly appropriate that a race described as dying who try to avoid casualties give their units pistols and tell them to run into the teeth of the enemy in order to fight - it doesn't take a farseer to tell you this is at odds with their desire to keep their people alive.

Yet all this is done to the Eldar without any remorse or justification.

Apparently only marines get to invoke the 'hardly appropriate' card whenever they get buffed...

 Kanluwen wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
It’s bad for special save to be exclusive to eldar. Exceptions on top of exceptions proliferate too much.

Real-talk since I threw the concept out there:
It's not "exclusive to Eldar". It would be specific to their assault-themed units, which tend to have issues with survival given they're waving swords around like maniacs and in many cases even don't have pistols. It opens up a specific rule for several similar units for both of the 'core' Eldar factions(Drukhari and Craftworlds) while also adding some 'oomph' to their 'elite' faction in the form of Harlequins.

Obviously a rule like this wouldn't apply to, say, Dark Reapers or Guardians or Kabalites. But it would be on Wyches, Banshees, Swooping Hawks, Scourges, Troupes, Hellions, and maybe all forms of jetbikes and Vypers/Venoms but not heavier vehicles.

A similar rule could easily be added to other armies where applicable. The idea of 'speedy units that are hard to hit' should not be exclusive to one faction. I'd definitely say that the Sicarian Ruststalkers would be a good spot to throw this rule into a Skitarii army, Genestealers for GSC+Tyranids, Lictors for Tyranids, and any Atalan units that don't take a Wolfquad for GSC as well.

"What about Warp Spiders and Shadow Spectres?! They should be fast too!", I can hear Eldar players thinking...

You're right! But their speed comes from a different kind of setup. Warp Spiders do mini-'hops' through the Warp. Shadow Spectres can seemingly phase through material. Warp Spiders should be able to, [i]with a potential of Perils of the Warp-esque downsides, move forward their normal amount(no Advancing!) then attempt to 'reset' back to their starting point after shooting or when charged.

Shadow Spectres are a bit more difficult to nail down for a concept. A big one I keep coming to is that if declared as a target for shooting, they should be able to take a Leadership test. If they pass? They move a distance directly away from the firing unit. Make it only work once per phase, yadda yadda yadda.

Sorry Drukhari and Harlequin, I don't have more thoughts on you guys at the moment. I'd definitely pass the Shadow Spectre idea over to Harlequins too though. It feels very appropriate.

I'd be fine with giving it to basically all craftworld bikes/infantry (other than wraiths). Not just the melee units. A fire dragon has to run danger close to the enemy to use his gun. Ditto guardians. Reapers and rangers will inherently benefit from it less becauseadvancing advancing prevents them from shooting and the rangers would suffer a to-hit penalty for moving at all. Avengers and guardians and dragons are still superhumanly fast and agile despite not being as interested in getting into stabbing range.

Maybe spiders and spectres and so forth would still deserve special gimmicks of their own as they lean into being hard to hit even more than most, but simply changing Battle Focus into an 5+ invul (4+ after advancing) would be a pretty decent one size fits all buff. Make it a 6+/5+ instead if you go the ward save route. And if battle focus no longer lets you ignore the penalty to to-hit rolls with assault weapons, there's a baked in trade-off for the extra defense.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

The reason harlequins are doing well right now is that theyre a marine counter.

They have a winning to neutral match-up against every army in the game with data against them except Grey Knights.

This myth that it's only Space Marines that are top-tier and everything else doing well is just specifically a Marine counter is bs. Harlequins are one of the strongest factions in the game and consistently perform very well in every GT, and they seem to be becoming more and more common as tournament goers realize how incredibly powerful they are.

 Hellebore wrote:

GW have actively nerfed the eldar since 2nd ed while still pedalling the 'speed as defence' fluff and the power of exarchs.

To be fair, "speed as defense" was generally a thing for eldar until recently. I started in playing in 5th when moving a skimmer far enough in the movement phase meant that it could only be hit on 6+ in melee and got a 4+ save against shooting (back when vehicles generally didn't have saves at all). Until 8th edition, our jetbikes could move after shooting meaning we could generally pop around corners and hide from retaliation after shooting. In 6th(?) and 7th, Jink was a genuinely useful form of defense, and Battle Focus used to let us do a smaller version of JSJ.

Of course, people got sick of the JSJ, so they took it away. Instead of using positioning or moving fast to get our defensive benefits, we just stacked to-hit modifiers to represent how hard we are to hit. It was hard to put better than a -1 on most of your army (unless you were spamming flyers), and it largely lacked the mobility aspect, but it got the job done. Of course, people (rightly) got sick of the to-hit mods, so 9th edition gave us the -1 to hit cap. Which is fine except they don't seem to have really given us anything to replace it.

So while we still have the speed, it doesn't really translate into "defense" outside of vectored engines and Lighting Fast Reactions.

Apparently only marines get to invoke the 'hardly appropriate' card whenever they get buffed...

I wouldn't get too salty about that line They said something similar when they gave drukhari a quality of life buff between their 3rd edition and 5th edition books. Seems pretty clearly tongue-in-cheek, and they assume a similar tone whenever they're announcing buffs to any given army.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

The reason harlequins are doing well right now is that theyre a marine counter.

They have a winning to neutral match-up against every army in the game with data against them except Grey Knights.

This myth that it's only Space Marines that are top-tier and everything else doing well is just specifically a Marine counter is bs. Harlequins are one of the strongest factions in the game and consistently perform very well in every GT, and they seem to be becoming more and more common as tournament goers realize how incredibly powerful they are.

Harlequins are not ubiquitous, so the complaints against marines come from *not just* tournaments

 Eonfuzz wrote:


Harlequins are not ubiquitous, so the complaints against marines come from *not just* tournaments

Go on.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

GW have actively nerfed the eldar since 2nd ed while still pedalling the 'speed as defence' fluff and the power of exarchs.

To be fair, "speed as defense" was generally a thing for eldar until recently. I started in playing in 5th when moving a skimmer far enough in the movement phase meant that it could only be hit on 6+ in melee and got a 4+ save against shooting (back when vehicles generally didn't have saves at all). Until 8th edition, our jetbikes could move after shooting meaning we could generally pop around corners and hide from retaliation after shooting. In 6th(?) and 7th, Jink was a genuinely useful form of defense, and Battle Focus used to let us do a smaller version of JSJ.

Of course, people got sick of the JSJ, so they took it away. Instead of using positioning or moving fast to get our defensive benefits, we just stacked to-hit modifiers to represent how hard we are to hit. It was hard to put better than a -1 on most of your army (unless you were spamming flyers), and it largely lacked the mobility aspect, but it got the job done. Of course, people (rightly) got sick of the to-hit mods, so 9th edition gave us the -1 to hit cap. Which is fine except they don't seem to have really given us anything to replace it.

So while we still have the speed, it doesn't really translate into "defense" outside of vectored engines and Lighting Fast Reactions.

Apparently only marines get to invoke the 'hardly appropriate' card whenever they get buffed...

I wouldn't get too salty about that line They said something similar when they gave drukhari a quality of life buff between their 3rd edition and 5th edition books. Seems pretty clearly tongue-in-cheek, and they assume a similar tone whenever they're announcing buffs to any given army.

GW generally has a vision for what each army is SUPPOSED to be like. the vision for Marines is "small in number but highly effective"

I do think GW's spent the latter half of 8th edition thus trying to make Marines "fit the vision" and I think have more or less made a solid go at it. Eldar could proably stand a revisit themselves I actually think GW was planning on doiung that with Ynnari but for whatever reason decided to change course and move away from that.

@"Dodge Save" that's what Genestealers currently have.

BrianDavion wrote:

GW generally has a vision for what each army is SUPPOSED to be like. the vision for Marines is "small in number but highly effective"

Traditionally "small in number but highly effective" is also the vision of Aspect Warriors. Except now all their weapons ar D1 and Marines are 2W.

The thing is, there are more potential ways to be "elite effective" than just toughness, and older editions did this better. Marine "eliteness" has gotten very dumbed-down.