Switch Theme:

I don’t think marines should have two wounds  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Wicked Wych With a Whip





We can all come to agree that Orkz at 2W would make sense, "low armored high T that can take a hit" is fluffy for them.

People was talking about Aeldari (not only Craftworlds) because we are not supposed to be high T, high Sv nor have more than 1W for our basic dudes. I agree than a Marine should destroy an Aelve as soon as he grabs him, but that shouldn't be easy... We are talking 10+ ppm for a TEQ profile.

Aeldari troops should be either way more killy, harder to hit or (the less likely) way cheaper.

The Bloody Sails
 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Denegaar wrote:
We can all come to agree that Orkz at 2W would make sense, "low armored high T that can take a hit" is fluffy for them.

People was talking about Aeldari (not only Craftworlds) because we are not supposed to be high T, high Sv nor have more than 1W for our basic dudes. I agree than a Marine should destroy an Aelve as soon as he grabs him, but that shouldn't be easy... We are talking 10+ ppm for a TEQ profile.

Aeldari troops should be either way more killy, harder to hit or (the less likely) way cheaper.


Of course there are some durable Eldar elements including the Wraithforms and perhaps Aspects like Striking Scorpions?

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Wicked Wych With a Whip





Sure, or the Drukhari Coven. I was thinking about "regular" Troops.

There's units that shouldn't be affected by the changes, as they are monsters or have better saves/thoughness because of reasons

The Bloody Sails
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Lance845 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Nids have no or redundant vital organs even on their smallest organisms. Why are hormagaunts and termagants not 2 wounds and warriors 4-5?


gaunts have always been cheap and reasonably easy to kill. do you want 15 point gaunts? and 'nids have 3 wounds. thats pretty beefy


No, because I think it's dumb that all space marines have 2 wounds. But if they are going to all have 2 wounds then 1 w models more or less needs to be reserved for the weakest of the weak. Minor deamons and snotlings.

Anything the size of a man or bigger is going to be 2w. Hormagaunts and Termagants are bigger then a normal man and while they are very weakly armored (poor save) and easy to wound (low toughness) they can survive extremely severe wounds and keep on going without even noticing any amount of pain due to the hive mind. They have the correct toughness and save but not the correct wounds by any argument being given by people who think it's fine for all SM to be 2w.

If we are going to be talking about fluff justifying rules AND trying to create a balanced game then there it is. Don't like it? Then Old Marines should be dropped back down to 1.


dude, MARINES got a second wound, you'r "size of a man or bigger" argument might fly if GUARD where given one. Marines get an extra wound because they're super human warriors encased in thick powered armor with various life support systems. (notice even marines need to be in power armor to get that second wound?)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/11 10:10:46


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

I think Lance's point is fair, actually.

If wounds are supposed to represent the difficulty of putting down a given unit, then it would make perfect sense for tenacious units like termagants (which will keep fighting even after sustaining grievous wounds) to have 2 wounds.

I strongly suspect that the only reason people oppose this is because they think it doesn't *feel* right, even though it makes perfect sense fluffwise.

But if you're going by fluff and by what toughness, wounds and saves are supposed to mean, then you can't just disregard relevant fluff when it suits you.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I mean I have not seen fluff tha support that hormagants can keep fighting even when they have suffered great wounds, unlike space marines or orks. They aren't that much harder to kill than a normal human. But I won't say he has no merit in his assertion.


Personally, I would distribute the T and W values something like this:


T2: Gretchin, Nurglings, etc...
T3 W1: Horma/Termagaunts, Normal Tau, Normal Humans, Normal Eldars (And I can totally see a problem with how eldar should be hard to hit to be resilient)
T4 W1: Necron Warriors, Ork Boyz (I can see them both being W1 and W2), Some Admech infantry, Dark Eldar Coven infantry
T4 W2: Marines (Both normal, primaris and scouts), Ork Boyz (Ork boyz at W1 and 8-9ppm or W2 at 11-12pm seem fine to me), Stealth Suits and similar, etc...
T4 W3: Space Marine Terminators, Chaos Possessed, Similar units
T5 W2: Necron Inmortals and similar chassis (Deathmarks, etc...), Plague Marines, etc...
T5 W3: Gravis armored space marines, Plague Terminators, Ork Nobz (And I would make them troops to allow orks to play an elite army if they wish), Lychguard/Praetorians, Tau Crisis suits etc...
T5 W4: (Here I would put the heavier tier of infantry in the game, more than this is entering vehicle/Monster territory) Ogryns/Bullgryns, Custodes Infantry, Tyranid Warriors (And keep them as troops. They are expensive money wise, so they deserve to be worth the points they cost) , Ork Meganobz, Deathshroud terminators, etc...

This way you have a much varied range of infantry in your game with a ton of stat profiles that make having "ultra efficient weapons" or "resolved metas" like spamming damage 2 much more difficult. This is more wishlisting than anything but it looks like GW is trying to make something like this, expanding the range of infantry stats, at least going by the space marine and necron codex.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2020/10/11 12:22:41


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Galas wrote:
I mean I have not seen fluff tha support that hormagants can keep fighting even when they have suffered great wounds, unlike space marines or orks. They aren't that much harder to kill than a normal human. But I won't say he has no merit in his assertion.


Personally, I would distribute the T and W values something like this:


T2: Gretchin, Nurglings, etc...
T3 W1: Horma/Termagaunts, Normal Tau, Normal Humans, Normal Eldars (And I can totally see a problem with how eldar should be hard to hit to be resilient)
T4 W1: Necron Warriors, Ork Boyz (I can see them both being W1 and W2), Some Admech infantry, Dark Eldar Coven infantry
T4 W2: Marines (Both normal, primaris and scouts), Ork Boyz (Ork boyz at W1 and 8-9ppm or W2 at 11-12pm seem fine to me), Stealth Suits and similar, etc...
T4 W3: Space Marine Terminators, Chaos Possessed, Similar units
T5 W2: Necron Inmortals and similar chassis (Deathmarks, etc...), Plague Marines, etc...
T5 W3: Gravis armored space marines, Plague Terminators, Ork Nobz (And I would make them troops to allow orks to play an elite army if they wish), Lychguard/Praetorians
T5 W4: (Here I would put the heavier tier of infantry in the game, more than this is entering vehicle/Monster territory) Ogryns/Bullgryns, Custodes Infantry, Tyranid Warriors (And keep them as troops. They are expensive money wise, so they deserve to be worth the points they cost) , Ork Meganobz, Tau Crisis suits, Deathshroud terminators, etc...

This way you have a much varied range of infantry in your game with a ton of stat profiles that make having "ultra efficient weapons" or "resolved metas" like spamming damage 2 much more difficult. This is more wishlisting than anything but it looks like GW is trying to make something like this, expanding the range of infantry stats, at least going by the space marine and necron codex.


I think that all works.

notice even marines need to be in power armor to get that second wound
Narratively it just feels right for me that Marines get 2W in the same way as characters get multiple wounds.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

I'm not an expert on SM fluff - is there a reason Terminators should have more wounds than regular Marines?

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 vipoid wrote:
I'm not an expert on SM fluff - is there a reason Terminators should have more wounds than regular Marines?


They are noted as being incredably durable usually worn by skilled veterans so narratively yeah I would say it works - same as it should be for Exarchs or similar....

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Mr Morden wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
I'm not an expert on SM fluff - is there a reason Terminators should have more wounds than regular Marines?


They are noted as being incredably durable usually worn by skilled veterans so narratively yeah I would say it works - same as it should be for Exarchs or similar....


No it doesn't. A veteran marine can survive exactly the same amount of damage as a fresh one with mature organs and whatever.

There is no reason that skill should mean they can take extra exploding rockets to their body. The armor itself increases their save. The fact that they are marines makes the w2 and t4.

And this here is the problem with people using fluff to justify anything. Termagants and Hormagaunts who have no vital organs and could be split in half and keep crawling forward like some kind of zombie (and the same for necron warriors) are w1 because that "feels right" but placing a guy into a different suit of armor suddenly makes them able to survive as much damage as a 10ft tall tyranid warrior?

The hell is going on here?


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 vipoid wrote:
I'm not an expert on SM fluff - is there a reason Terminators should have more wounds than regular Marines?


Not really but GW has given them an extra wound so I was just keeping up with that.



 Lance845 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
I'm not an expert on SM fluff - is there a reason Terminators should have more wounds than regular Marines?


They are noted as being incredably durable usually worn by skilled veterans so narratively yeah I would say it works - same as it should be for Exarchs or similar....


No it doesn't. A veteran marine can survive exactly the same amount of damage as a fresh one with mature organs and whatever.

There is no reason that skill should mean they can take extra exploding rockets to their body. The armor itself increases their save. The fact that they are marines makes the w2 and t4.

And this here is the problem with people using fluff to justify anything. Termagants and Hormagaunts who have no vital organs and could be split in half and keep crawling forward like some kind of zombie (and the same for necron warriors) are w1 because that "feels right" but placing a guy into a different suit of armor suddenly makes them able to survive as much damage as a 10ft tall tyranid warrior?

The hell is going on here?


First, I believe you have come here a little too abrasive.

Second of all, yeah, Necron Warriors and even Hormagaunts could be argued to be 2 wounds, but TBH normal zombies in fantasy weren't two wounds, basically because theres two ways to interpret that kind of "resilience", the mindless horde of low-quality stuff that dies in droves and keeps fighting: They are extremely durable and resilient or they are dispached with ease but they are just too many.

In this case, just as I said, is not only fluff but also balance and game design that should be taken into account with those profiles. For example, for Inmortals, going right now from W1 to W2 would be a nerf with how RP work, but I find much more themathically aproppiate for an Inmortal to be a harder space marine with better weapons (And probably less lethal in meele). But if , and is clear GW wants, Necron Warriors to feel like a silver tide that doesn't die because they get back up, then at W1 they fit both from a balance and design space and a fluff one. The same goes for Hormagaunts/Termagaunts. Yeah those bugs can keep fighting (Probably not in a specially lethal state by WH standards) with half of their body cut off, but they are lowly tier crocroaches , and they probably should be buffed in the sense of the replenishement mechanics with the big tyranid HQ that spawns new termagaunts, etc...

Theres just so much you can make with the "generalisation" of stats, like a Catachan Infantryman is S4 just like a Space Marine. We all know we can't have a unit being 3,5F or 3,8F so the different brackets of an stat have space for variance.
And thats become even a bigger problem when you keep a TON of stuff in the same brackets. When 80% of the infantry if your game is T3-T4 and W1 then you end up without that much design space to make them different. And I don't really care how Warhammer was 20 years ago outside his historical value. The number of profiles, units, and weapons has probably tripled since then, and the range, specially in the top row of profiles (The bigger stuff) has keep becoming higher and higher.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/11 13:22:28


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Lance845 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
I'm not an expert on SM fluff - is there a reason Terminators should have more wounds than regular Marines?


They are noted as being incredably durable usually worn by skilled veterans so narratively yeah I would say it works - same as it should be for Exarchs or similar....


No it doesn't. A veteran marine can survive exactly the same amount of damage as a fresh one with mature organs and whatever.

There is no reason that skill should mean they can take extra exploding rockets to their body. The armor itself increases their save. The fact that they are marines makes the w2 and t4.

And this here is the problem with people using fluff to justify anything. Termagants and Hormagaunts who have no vital organs and could be split in half and keep crawling forward like some kind of zombie (and the same for necron warriors) are w1 because that "feels right" but placing a guy into a different suit of armor suddenly makes them able to survive as much damage as a 10ft tall tyranid warrior?

The hell is going on here?

And a Character (whatever the race) has more wounds due to narrative theme - same here and now as its been since day 1 of the game.

Gaunts are often killed in droves and in fact used to deplete the preys ammo - IF they are in synapse range they are ubreakable but they die - FNP for being in synapse range is (for me) the right thing for gaunts etc, same as invulns for Genestealers - noted incredable reflexes works for me. Necrons get back up - thats their thing.

Plus all that Oasis wrote

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/11 13:25:29


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 Lance845 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
I'm not an expert on SM fluff - is there a reason Terminators should have more wounds than regular Marines?


They are noted as being incredably durable usually worn by skilled veterans so narratively yeah I would say it works - same as it should be for Exarchs or similar....


No it doesn't. A veteran marine can survive exactly the same amount of damage as a fresh one with mature organs and whatever.

There is no reason that skill should mean they can take extra exploding rockets to their body. The armor itself increases their save. The fact that they are marines makes the w2 and t4.

And this here is the problem with people using fluff to justify anything. Termagants and Hormagaunts who have no vital organs and could be split in half and keep crawling forward like some kind of zombie (and the same for necron warriors) are w1 because that "feels right" but placing a guy into a different suit of armor suddenly makes them able to survive as much damage as a 10ft tall tyranid warrior?

The hell is going on here?


Look at it this way, of you out guardsmen/hormagaunts on 2 wounds, you're facilitating a 3 wound marine, as they're tougher than a standard humanoid.

Likewise of you don't hand wave the extra wound here and there based on bad-assery, then yes, enjoy your 1/2 wound legendary fighters/hq's who can die to a singe lasgun shot.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/11 13:24:36


 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Dudeface wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
I'm not an expert on SM fluff - is there a reason Terminators should have more wounds than regular Marines?


They are noted as being incredably durable usually worn by skilled veterans so narratively yeah I would say it works - same as it should be for Exarchs or similar....


No it doesn't. A veteran marine can survive exactly the same amount of damage as a fresh one with mature organs and whatever.

There is no reason that skill should mean they can take extra exploding rockets to their body. The armor itself increases their save. The fact that they are marines makes the w2 and t4.

And this here is the problem with people using fluff to justify anything. Termagants and Hormagaunts who have no vital organs and could be split in half and keep crawling forward like some kind of zombie (and the same for necron warriors) are w1 because that "feels right" but placing a guy into a different suit of armor suddenly makes them able to survive as much damage as a 10ft tall tyranid warrior?

The hell is going on here?


Look at it this way, of you out guardsmen/hormagaunts on 2 wounds, you're facilitating a 3 wound marine, as they're tougher than a standard humanoid.

Likewise of you don't hand wave the extra wound here and there based on bad-assery, then yes, enjoy your 1/2 wound legendary fighters/hq's who can die to a singe lasgun shot.


They are tougher. Thats why guard and gaunts are t3 vs a marines t4.

They ALREADY are tougher with the attribute toughness. Wounds has nothing to do with that.

My point is that everyone in this thread who is using fluff to justify anything is wrong. The fluff is both wildly inconsistent and a bad basis for a balanced and fun game. GW made bad rules like GW always makes bad rules. It's not a basis for anything because they didn't base it on anything but getting people to buy plastic.

But if you want to argue fluff then it's easy to start arguing fluff for anyone because everyones codex talks about how their army is the best and destroys worlds.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Lance845 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
I'm not an expert on SM fluff - is there a reason Terminators should have more wounds than regular Marines?


They are noted as being incredably durable usually worn by skilled veterans so narratively yeah I would say it works - same as it should be for Exarchs or similar....


No it doesn't. A veteran marine can survive exactly the same amount of damage as a fresh one with mature organs and whatever.

There is no reason that skill should mean they can take extra exploding rockets to their body. The armor itself increases their save. The fact that they are marines makes the w2 and t4.

And this here is the problem with people using fluff to justify anything. Termagants and Hormagaunts who have no vital organs and could be split in half and keep crawling forward like some kind of zombie (and the same for necron warriors) are w1 because that "feels right" but placing a guy into a different suit of armor suddenly makes them able to survive as much damage as a 10ft tall tyranid warrior?

The hell is going on here?


Terminator armour is for a reason called a tactical dreadnought armour. You practicaly face something with enough armour and shield generators for them to be vehicles. Now that doesn't mean GW can't give them some really good rule like the inner circle DA one, or limitation how worse their save can become.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Karol wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
I'm not an expert on SM fluff - is there a reason Terminators should have more wounds than regular Marines?


They are noted as being incredably durable usually worn by skilled veterans so narratively yeah I would say it works - same as it should be for Exarchs or similar....


No it doesn't. A veteran marine can survive exactly the same amount of damage as a fresh one with mature organs and whatever.

There is no reason that skill should mean they can take extra exploding rockets to their body. The armor itself increases their save. The fact that they are marines makes the w2 and t4.

And this here is the problem with people using fluff to justify anything. Termagants and Hormagaunts who have no vital organs and could be split in half and keep crawling forward like some kind of zombie (and the same for necron warriors) are w1 because that "feels right" but placing a guy into a different suit of armor suddenly makes them able to survive as much damage as a 10ft tall tyranid warrior?

The hell is going on here?


Terminator armour is for a reason called a tactical dreadnought armour. You practicaly face something with enough armour and shield generators for them to be vehicles. Now that doesn't mean GW can't give them some really good rule like the inner circle DA one, or limitation how worse their save can become.


Yup. Thats why they have an invul save and a armor save better then most vehicles including actual dreads. There is a very real limitation on how bad their save can become. It's the invul save.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/11 13:50:50



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Lance845 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
I'm not an expert on SM fluff - is there a reason Terminators should have more wounds than regular Marines?


They are noted as being incredably durable usually worn by skilled veterans so narratively yeah I would say it works - same as it should be for Exarchs or similar....


No it doesn't. A veteran marine can survive exactly the same amount of damage as a fresh one with mature organs and whatever.

There is no reason that skill should mean they can take extra exploding rockets to their body. The armor itself increases their save. The fact that they are marines makes the w2 and t4.

And this here is the problem with people using fluff to justify anything. Termagants and Hormagaunts who have no vital organs and could be split in half and keep crawling forward like some kind of zombie (and the same for necron warriors) are w1 because that "feels right" but placing a guy into a different suit of armor suddenly makes them able to survive as much damage as a 10ft tall tyranid warrior?

The hell is going on here?

It's not the marine that makes a terminator 3W it's the armour.

Also you want to quote a source book for your Gaunts deserve 2W indea as Marine, Tau even Eldar fluff says they die fairly easily with a shot or two like guardsmen, they are quick and viscous and come in swarms which is scary to infantry but put terminators, Crisis suits etc infront of them with assualt cannons, flamers, burstcannons they die quick enough.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

It is not that strange for an armor to give a model more wounds, for example Tau armor give +1W if is a stealth suit and +2W if its an Crisis suit.

Basically, in this case is less about fluff (why terminator armor has more wounds than a normal marine in power armor) and more about balance and design space (it is worth it to give terminators an extra wound to make them different enough to normal marines to be able to balance them properly). Personally I believe terminators can work both with 2W and 3W but with gravits at 3W if GW wants heavier marine armor to give +1W (Terminator for normals and Gravis for primaris) is not something so outrageous. I mean, you gain +1W for being on a bike, and the last time I was on a bike I didn't become some kind of superhuman with double the resilience to damage.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Ice_can wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
I'm not an expert on SM fluff - is there a reason Terminators should have more wounds than regular Marines?


They are noted as being incredably durable usually worn by skilled veterans so narratively yeah I would say it works - same as it should be for Exarchs or similar....


No it doesn't. A veteran marine can survive exactly the same amount of damage as a fresh one with mature organs and whatever.

There is no reason that skill should mean they can take extra exploding rockets to their body. The armor itself increases their save. The fact that they are marines makes the w2 and t4.

And this here is the problem with people using fluff to justify anything. Termagants and Hormagaunts who have no vital organs and could be split in half and keep crawling forward like some kind of zombie (and the same for necron warriors) are w1 because that "feels right" but placing a guy into a different suit of armor suddenly makes them able to survive as much damage as a 10ft tall tyranid warrior?

The hell is going on here?

It's not the marine that makes a terminator 3W it's the armour.

Also you want to quote a source book for your Gaunts deserve 2W indea as Marine, Tau even Eldar fluff says they die fairly easily with a shot or two like guardsmen, they are quick and viscous and come in swarms which is scary to infantry but put terminators, Crisis suits etc infront of them with assualt cannons, flamers, burstcannons they die quick enough.


No. The armor gives them a 2+ 5++ save.

They DO die quickly enough because they are not as tough and don't have as good armor. But they are capable of sustaining wounds that would kill others by virtue of having no or redundant vital organs. Shooting them in the middle of the chest is the same as shooting them in the foot.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

They DO die quickly enough because they are not as tough and don't have as good armor. But they are capable of sustaining wounds that would kill others by virtue of having no or redundant vital organs. Shooting them in the middle of the chest is the same as shooting them in the foot


Is there a source for this specifically - they are still biologcal entities and the very disposable ones - also aren't guants one of the few species that can live and reproduce outside the Hive Mind so have to be able to do that as well?

If the pts are actually balanced (and not saying they are now) what the problem with having disposable swams with 1 W each?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/11 15:42:35


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Mr Morden wrote:
They DO die quickly enough because they are not as tough and don't have as good armor. But they are capable of sustaining wounds that would kill others by virtue of having no or redundant vital organs. Shooting them in the middle of the chest is the same as shooting them in the foot


Is there a source for this specifically - they are still biologcal entities and the very disposable ones - also aren't guants one of the few species that can live and reproduce outside the Hive Mind so have to be able to do that as well?

If the pts are actually balanced (and not saying they are now) what the problem with having disposable swams with 1 W each?


I am searching for a solid source atm to quote to you. Currently looking for my copy of anphelion project.

That being said it has always been the case that nids are built to serve their purpose. Most of them don't have digestive tracts because they are not meant to last long enough to do any of that. Feeder organisms don't even have digestive tracts. They have sacks to hold biomater that get dragged into digestion pools. Hormagaunts, termagants, warriors, and other organisms have sacks of nutrient rich fuel to drive them for their brief existence. In Anphelion the gaunts and gants don't reproduce. They go into a hybernation state and then mutate into different forms or combine their biomass to mutate into new forms. Regular gaunts and gants became gargoyles. Warriors became shrikes.

There is nothing wrong with having disposable swarms with 1w each. Just like there was nothing wrong with marines being 1w each. Again, the point is everyone in every army can quote fluff for the absurd crap that happens in the fluff to justify how the rules don't reflect their preferred source of fluff. It's dumb to argue that crap for this, but if thats what you are going to do then everyone else is capable of doing it too. None of it makes for a particularly good game.

If old marines are 2w, and primaris and even tougher then that then they should be 3 wounds, and if terminator and gravis armor isn't just a better save but more wounds then tyranid warriors should be reach 6 wounds each now? Which means a tyrant should be nearing 16-18 probably right? So the swarmlord should be 20-22ish? Is this the game you want to play?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/11 15:54:59



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Now your just being absurd.

Tau fluff Guardsmen easy to kill, Marines much harder and able to fight with holes in them & missing limbs.
Guants are inline with Guardsmen.

No Primaris arn't tougher than marines that wqs GW marketing BS to coverup that they where artificially holding oldmarine stats back to sell the new models.

TBH though Primarachad fluff is retcon after retcon as it's been a complete joke from it's inception with their look a wizard did it here's millions of marines no-one noticed BS.
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






No. The extra wound for old marines is a gimmick to make as much use of the old marine molds before they all get squatted.

The whole thing is absurd.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Lance845 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
They DO die quickly enough because they are not as tough and don't have as good armor. But they are capable of sustaining wounds that would kill others by virtue of having no or redundant vital organs. Shooting them in the middle of the chest is the same as shooting them in the foot


Is there a source for this specifically - they are still biologcal entities and the very disposable ones - also aren't guants one of the few species that can live and reproduce outside the Hive Mind so have to be able to do that as well?

If the pts are actually balanced (and not saying they are now) what the problem with having disposable swams with 1 W each?


I am searching for a solid source atm to quote to you. Currently looking for my copy of anphelion project.

That being said it has always been the case that nids are built to serve their purpose. Most of them don't have digestive tracts because they are not meant to last long enough to do any of that. Feeder organisms don't even have digestive tracts. They have sacks to hold biomater that get dragged into digestion pools. Hormagaunts, termagants, warriors, and other organisms have sacks of nutrient rich fuel to drive them for their brief existence. In Anphelion the gaunts and gants don't reproduce. They go into a hybernation state and then mutate into different forms or combine their biomass to mutate into new forms. Regular gaunts and gants became gargoyles. Warriors became shrikes.

There is nothing wrong with having disposable swarms with 1w each. Just like there was nothing wrong with marines being 1w each. Again, the point is everyone in every army can quote fluff for the absurd crap that happens in the fluff to justify how the rules don't reflect their preferred source of fluff. It's dumb to argue that crap for this, but if thats what you are going to do then everyone else is capable of doing it too. None of it makes for a particularly good game.

If old marines are 2w, and primaris and even tougher then that then they should be 3 wounds, and if terminator and gravis armor isn't just a better save but more wounds then tyranid warriors should be reach 6 wounds each now? Which means a tyrant should be nearing 16-18 probably right? So the swarmlord should be 20-22ish? Is this the game you want to play?


I have all but the 8th Ed Codexes and also have the A Project.

Glancing through 2nd and 5th Ed dex both talk about gaunts laying eggs, will need to check the later ones.

I just think there is nothing wrong with 2W Marines (all of them) to contrast with "normal" humans - the rest is narrative and for the game to make units different - no reason that getting on a bike gives you +1W - A Tau Crisis suit should by the same reasoning just be T3 W1 as the armour does not make the pilot less likely to die?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/11 16:13:58


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Mr Morden wrote:
Spoiler:
 Lance845 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
They DO die quickly enough because they are not as tough and don't have as good armor. But they are capable of sustaining wounds that would kill others by virtue of having no or redundant vital organs. Shooting them in the middle of the chest is the same as shooting them in the foot


Is there a source for this specifically - they are still biologcal entities and the very disposable ones - also aren't guants one of the few species that can live and reproduce outside the Hive Mind so have to be able to do that as well?

If the pts are actually balanced (and not saying they are now) what the problem with having disposable swams with 1 W each?


I am searching for a solid source atm to quote to you. Currently looking for my copy of anphelion project.

That being said it has always been the case that nids are built to serve their purpose. Most of them don't have digestive tracts because they are not meant to last long enough to do any of that. Feeder organisms don't even have digestive tracts. They have sacks to hold biomater that get dragged into digestion pools. Hormagaunts, termagants, warriors, and other organisms have sacks of nutrient rich fuel to drive them for their brief existence. In Anphelion the gaunts and gants don't reproduce. They go into a hybernation state and then mutate into different forms or combine their biomass to mutate into new forms. Regular gaunts and gants became gargoyles. Warriors became shrikes.

There is nothing wrong with having disposable swarms with 1w each. Just like there was nothing wrong with marines being 1w each. Again, the point is everyone in every army can quote fluff for the absurd crap that happens in the fluff to justify how the rules don't reflect their preferred source of fluff. It's dumb to argue that crap for this, but if thats what you are going to do then everyone else is capable of doing it too. None of it makes for a particularly good game.

If old marines are 2w, and primaris and even tougher then that then they should be 3 wounds, and if terminator and gravis armor isn't just a better save but more wounds then tyranid warriors should be reach 6 wounds each now? Which means a tyrant should be nearing 16-18 probably right? So the swarmlord should be 20-22ish? Is this the game you want to play?


I have all but the 8th Ed Codexes and also have the A Project.

Glancing through 2nd and 5th Ed dex both talk about gaunts laying eggs, will need to check the later ones.

I just think there is nothing wrong with 2W Marines (all of them) to contrast with "normal" humans - the rest is narrative and for the game to make units different - no reason that getting on a bike gives you +1W - A Tau Crisis suit should by the same reasoning just be T3 W1 as the armour does not make the pilot less likely to die?



The fact that marines are t4 instead of t3 contrasts them with normal humans. It's literally harder for a lasgun to hurt a marine then it is a gaurdsman before armor ever comes into play. You roll to hit. Then you roll to wound. A wound being a hit that was good enough to cause real damage. A marine can take hits from guns and shrug off the damage more than anything t3. Any weapon that is str4 wounds a normal human on a 3+ and a marine on 4+ Any weapon str 6 wounds a normal human on a 2+ and a marine on 3+. You need a str 8 weapon to get a 2+ to wound a marine.

The bike itself or the tau suit is capable of suffering damage when they make up more than half the model. Hence the additional wounds.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Whats the problem with a Tyrant and a Swarmlord with 20-25 wounds?

I have always said that wound values and toughtness values should increase across the board to have more design space. T10 for Baneblades, Stompas and Imperial Knights, T9 for Leman Russ and heavy but not super heavy vehicles, T8 for normal vehicles, T7 for light ones, for example.

You are discussing the "fluff" perspective Lance but have not say anything about other reasons for why having more varied statlines across the game would be benefical without entering in changing the core gameplay of warhammer 40k , because I know thats what you would propose.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Galas wrote:
Whats the problem with a Tyrant and a Swarmlord with 20-25 wounds?

I have always said that wound values and toughtness values should increase across the board to have more design space. T10 for Baneblades, Stompas and Imperial Knights, T9 for Leman Russ and heavy but not super heavy vehicles, T8 for normal vehicles, T7 for light ones, for example.

You are discussing the "fluff" perspective Lance but have not say anything about other reasons for why having more varied statlines across the game would be benefical without entering in changing the core gameplay of warhammer 40k , because I know thats what you would propose.


Can't argue with that - why is GW so terrified of units having more than T8?

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Galas wrote:
Whats the problem with a Tyrant and a Swarmlord with 20-25 wounds?

I have always said that wound values and toughtness values should increase across the board to have more design space. T10 for Baneblades, Stompas and Imperial Knights, T9 for Leman Russ and heavy but not super heavy vehicles, T8 for normal vehicles, T7 for light ones, for example.

You are discussing the "fluff" perspective Lance but have not say anything about other reasons for why having more varied statlines across the game would be benefical without entering in changing the core gameplay of warhammer 40k , because I know thats what you would propose.


Mechanically it would require a massive shift in all aspect of the game (something I am not opposed to but that is not what is being discussed here). By simply increasing toughness and wound values but not adjusting everything else to suit you will have a game that has you rolling the massive piles of dice we do today but for even less effect. Much like how overwatch is basically a waste of everyones time every attack would be a waste of everyones time.

Consider that a termagants devourer (a gun that doubles the cost of the model in previous editions) is str 3 with 3 shots. A unit of 30 rolls 90 dice. Even supported by a tervigon and getting the unit bonus to reroll 1s to hit and wound. 45 hit/reroll 1s (15 dice average) for 2ish more hits. Against a t4 marine 15 woulds. rerolling 1s 1 more wound. 3+ save, 5ish damage. Against 2 wound marines thats 2.5 dead marines for 90 shots. That degree of return on dice is atrocious. It's a static game where buckets of dice are rolled and time is spent counting out successes for no real effect. It's bad for the game.

In order for the things players actually do to have any actual meaningful effect the whole game has to shift to accommodate the new normal of higher wounds and toughnesses. Which again, I am for. But again, GW isn't going to do.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Maybe stuff like termagants isn't suppose to kill whole units of marines in one go. Maybe killing 2-3 with 30 is what should happen.


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

This last round of argument perfectly illustrates why some infantry getting an extra wound makes it impossible to understand what the different stats represent.

I'm wearing super tough armor that makes me harder to kill. Does that give me an extra wound? Higher toughness? Better save? Some combination of the above? If I have an extra wound, is that because of the armor, or because I'm very important and deserve plot armor? Does being humanoid in stature but immune to pain make me T4, or W2, or both? Does anything that doesn't stop fighting when injured (read: everything except Guardsmen) deserve W2 to reflect that?

Once upon a time it was a given that all non-character humanoids were W1. Your Toughness reflected how hard you were to kill, and your Save represented the durability of your armor. Easy. Straightforward. Simple. Interacted with weapons in predictable and logical ways.

Now we get to argue over exactly which mechanic properly represents how vaguely difficult fungus-hooligans are to kill versus bioengineered killing machines versus transhumans in big suits of armor, and it's all just arbitrary stats that don't represent anything. Don't forget to throw FNP saves in there too; after all, it's literally 'feel no pain' so obviously Orks and Tyranids should get them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
Maybe stuff like termagants isn't suppose to kill whole units of marines in one go. Maybe killing 2-3 with 30 is what should happen.


So you agree that Marines should be W1, because 30 Termagants average 2.5 wounds (2.92 with Living Ammunition) against MEQ...?

Edit: Lance, your math's a bit off; Devourers are S4. A unit of 30 Termagants with Devourers averages 8.75 wounds on MEQ. I should point out to non-Tyranid players that that's also a 270pt unit with a grand total of 30 T3/6+ wounds and 18" range; it's the glassiest of glass hammers.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/11 17:04:43


   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: