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2020/10/12 09:53:17
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Let's just ignore that you can deep strike that 20 strong brick of warriors for a single pregame CP, or veil them forward to kneecap a threat or hold a table quarter. Beyond that, warriors aren't just limited to gauss flayers anymore, they can take gauss reapers which are Assault 2 12" S5 AP-2.
Yes, lets. Because we are working off stock troop comparisons apparently. But then lets compare.
So when they get into range they can do this to those terminators you're so fixated on:
40 shots 26.67 hits 17.78 wounds 8.88 unsaved wounds 2 or 3 dead terminators
You also have options to buff those warriors with 2+ shooting if you veiled them over with an overlord:
40 shots 33.33 hits 22.22 wounds 11.11 unsaved wounds 3 dead terminators with a chance to catch a 4th
That's a pretty good return for a tough unit that that'll get back a 3rd of the models you knockdown.
No it's not. 40 shots with character support shooting at 2+ BS with 3+ wounds and AP-2 cannot kill a 5 model unit of infantry. AND they have to get within 12" to do it. That is not a pretty good return. Thats a garbage return.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 09:54:15
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2020/10/12 11:51:29
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
The problem I see with marines having 2 wounds is just that they are too cheap. Nobody things Custodes are OP because they have basic troops with 3 wounds T5 and basically terminator statlines with better invul saves.
Anyway I have to say, gentelmen and gentelwoman is a pleasure to debate about a topic like this with such polite and well-mannered posters. Things can get a little heated and one of the reasons I don't post as much in this forum is because people is just too fast to jump to the throat of other posters.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2020/10/12 17:00:41
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Denegaar wrote: Of course Poisonous Weapon is really underpowered, but it was just an example of a weapon that hits on 3s, wounds of 4s, no AP and D1.
The most basic weapon profile that has become lackluster vs the most played Troop choice in the game.
We can buff Poison, Shuriken and Gauss, but that feels like patches. Why buff durability of Primaris if then you have to change all other weapon choices so the rest of the factions can fight?
I see it as an opportunity. 2W for Marines feels right, personally speaking. Now other codizes have to follow suit and make their units feel right, too.
While nerfing outliers is usually the faster solution, I'm more a "bring everything up to the same level to even things out" myself.
Oversimplified: Everything is awesome > everything sucks equally.
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
2020/10/12 12:21:26
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Galas wrote: The problem I see with marines having 2 wounds is just that they are too cheap. Nobody things Custodes are OP because they have basic troops with 3 wounds T5 and basically terminator statlines with better invul saves.
Anyway I have to say, gentelmen and gentelwoman is a pleasure to debate about a topic like this with such polite and well-mannered posters. Things can get a little heated and one of the reasons I don't post as much in this forum is because people is just too fast to jump to the throat of other posters.
The point values is definitely part of it with custodes. Those point values put a cap on how many models are coming to the table and the unit size of the custodes are inherently smaller. Any one unit is only doing so much even when 1 model is a monster.
Custodes are like the Harlequinns for the imperium. A small model count elite force. SM are not a small model count elite force. They are not a horde army but they are not even remotely close to Custodes or Harlequinns. They shouldn't be this hard to kill when they can come in the numbers they do and fire as many shots as they do.
And they SHOULDN'T be harelquinns or custodes. They SHOULD be the middle of the road army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 12:23:39
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2020/10/12 12:25:10
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Only termintors are also in marine armies which are elite too. So making them 1W would be a direct nerf, just to make a different army weaker that can replace termintors with something else.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2020/10/12 12:27:31
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Karol wrote: Only termintors are also in marine armies which are elite too. So making them 1W would be a direct nerf, just to make a different army weaker that can replace termintors with something else.
You do know there is a difference between elite army and elite units within an army right?
The "elite" imperial guard units shouldn't be costed and have stat lines like custodes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 12:28:03
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2020/10/12 12:29:45
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Galas wrote: The problem I see with marines having 2 wounds is just that they are too cheap. Nobody things Custodes are OP because they have basic troops with 3 wounds T5 and basically terminator statlines with better invul saves.
Anyway I have to say, gentelmen and gentelwoman is a pleasure to debate about a topic like this with such polite and well-mannered posters. Things can get a little heated and one of the reasons I don't post as much in this forum is because people is just too fast to jump to the throat of other posters.
The point values is definitely part of it with custodes. Those point values put a cap on how many models are coming to the table and the unit size of the custodes are inherently smaller. Any one unit is only doing so much even when 1 model is a monster.
Custodes are like the Harlequinns for the imperium. A small model count elite force. SM are not a small model count elite force. They are not a horde army but they are not even remotely close to Custodes or Harlequinns. They shouldn't be this hard to kill when they can come in the numbers they do and fire as many shots as they do.
And they SHOULDN'T be harelquinns or custodes. They SHOULD be the middle of the road army.
Thas the problem with Space Marines. They are always sold as the heroes of the imperium, this super soldiers that can triumph agaisnt the worse of odds. But then, they are expected to be the middle of the road of the game. The thing everyone compares agaisnt. It would have been like having the Chaos Warrior being the baseline troop of Warhammer Fantasy. There it worked because the baseline was the imperial human, our Imperial Guard Infantry squad.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 12:31:05
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2020/10/12 12:51:01
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Galas wrote: The problem I see with marines having 2 wounds is just that they are too cheap. Nobody things Custodes are OP because they have basic troops with 3 wounds T5 and basically terminator statlines with better invul saves.
Anyway I have to say, gentelmen and gentelwoman is a pleasure to debate about a topic like this with such polite and well-mannered posters. Things can get a little heated and one of the reasons I don't post as much in this forum is because people is just too fast to jump to the throat of other posters.
The point values is definitely part of it with custodes. Those point values put a cap on how many models are coming to the table and the unit size of the custodes are inherently smaller. Any one unit is only doing so much even when 1 model is a monster.
Custodes are like the Harlequinns for the imperium. A small model count elite force. SM are not a small model count elite force. They are not a horde army but they are not even remotely close to Custodes or Harlequinns. They shouldn't be this hard to kill when they can come in the numbers they do and fire as many shots as they do.
And they SHOULDN'T be harelquinns or custodes. They SHOULD be the middle of the road army.
Thas the problem with Space Marines. They are always sold as the heroes of the imperium, this super soldiers that can triumph agaisnt the worse of odds. But then, they are expected to be the middle of the road of the game. The thing everyone compares agaisnt. It would have been like having the Chaos Warrior being the baseline troop of Warhammer Fantasy. There it worked because the baseline was the imperial human, our Imperial Guard Infantry squad.
I am not saying they should be the middle of the road for EVERYTHING. They should be the middle of the road for model count. They are not a horde and shouldn't be. They are not the hyper elite and shouldn't be. They are the front line shock troopers of the imperium. The tip of the spear. So they need to be able to put out more dakka per model then the hordes to keep up and need to have good saves and toughness to survive being shot but they shouldn't be getting anywhere near the durability of custodes. They have too many bodies for that to be a thing. Especially with the damage they can put out.
Honestly Primaris is the best thing to ever happen to SM.
They give them that extra wound at the point cost and the body count to do the job SM are supposed to be doing and fit the niche they are meant to fit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 12:52:07
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2020/10/12 13:08:19
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Lance845 wrote: I am not saying they should be the middle of the road for EVERYTHING. They should be the middle of the road for model count. They are not a horde and shouldn't be. They are not the hyper elite and shouldn't be.
Part of the issue as I see it is that they aren't middle of the road for capabilities anymore; not only are they second only to Custodes for most elite base Troops, but even the elites of most other armies need numerical superiority to beat them.
I thought they were a lot closer to 'middle of the road' when they were T4/W1/3+. Second only to Necron Warriors in 3rd/4th for the title of best troops in the game, able to take on elites like Aspect Warriors and still put up a fight against hyper-specialists like Genestealers, while mowing down hordes of Guardsmen or Termagants. Almost every army could field units that were better than basic Marines, but then the Marine elites were better still. And that was fine.
Having Primaris be the baseline turns things like Genestealers and Aspect Warriors into horde units by comparison, while Termagants, Guardians, Kabalites, Boyz, and Guardsmen become total chaff. I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with the Primaris statline, but it being the basic Troops choice of the most-commonly-played faction makes everyone else's Troops feel irrelevant unless fielded in triple-digit numbers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 14:06:02
catbarf wrote: Having Primaris be the baseline turns things like Genestealers and Aspect Warriors into horde units by comparison, while Termagants, Guardians, Kabalites, Boyz, and Guardsmen become total chaff. I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with the Primaris statline, but it being the basic Troops choice of the most-commonly-played faction makes everyone else's Troops feel irrelevant unless fielded in triple-digit numbers.
Exactly. Troops are a tax for a lot of factions because the Troops of the most played faction are twice as killy and four times as durable. It just doesn't feel right for a lot of non-SM players.
The Bloody Sails
2020/10/12 14:34:19
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Yeah, personally thats in my proposed "stat spread" that had like 10 minutes of thought put into it I believe GW should allow for more playstiles to other armies. Having better nobz and tyranid warriors as troops and better inmortals for example makes primaris no more the (with the exception of custodes) more elite troop on the game, and allows players of those factions to play something more than pure horde style.
TBH I believe that Primaris Intercessors as baseline aren't that bad. 2 wounds, 2 attacks, a bolter with 2 shots at 15" with ap-1 and F4. All of that at 19-22ppm. It seems reasonable with other lesser troops costing 6-11 points. The problem is when you add chapter tactics, doctrines, bolter discipline, shock assault, rerrolls, etc...
I mean, yeah, it sucks that a banshee is worse than a Primaris but I think thats more a problem of banshees, that have been bad since ... like, nearly ever (I know in RT a banshee could kill 200 marines) and not the baseline Primaris intercessor statline. High Elves felt elite in Fantasy because the power scale of that game and universe was much lower, and again the baseline were not Chaos Warriors but normal humans. But compared with chaos warriors (the space marines of fantasy) Elves were in many cases worse, even Swordsmaster vs Chaos Chosen. Of course they had ways to fight back but stat per stat they were worse.
I can't agree that it feelt "right" that a basic tactical marine was outfighted by a ork boy and outshoot by a Tau Firewarrior when in the universe you have numbers of magnitudes more of those two extremely mediocre units (In fluff) than marines, specially when a tactical at the point of being a tactical has probably 100 years of experience as scout, assault, and devastator marine. And as we all know at this point , being an specialist is way better than being a generalist, specially if for being a generalist you are just mediocre at everything.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 14:42:14
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2020/10/12 14:43:40
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Thas the problem with Space Marines. They are always sold as the heroes of the imperium, this super soldiers that can triumph agaisnt the worse of odds.
Two points with this:
1) Even with their old statlines, they were still super compared to other humans. They shot better than guardsmen, they fought better than guardsmen, they were stronger than guardsmen, they were tougher than guardsmen, they had much better armour than guardsmen, they had much better weapons than guardsmen etc.
Even compared to the most elite guardsmen, like Scions, Marines were still better in almost every capacity.
However, whilst elite by the standards of humans, Marines were still hard pressed to fight against massive orks, hulking tyranid warriors, elite warriors of the Eldar, deathless machines etc.
Basically, Marines were highly elite relative to humans, but they weren't the most elite units to ever exist in the history of the universe. They might have been humanity's greatest hope, but it was still very much an uphill fight, and likely even a lost cause in the face of so many alien horrors.
However, since then Marines have transitioned into the most elite and awesome beings ever to grace the universe with their presence. Rather than meeting their match against many powerful aliens, those aliens (even their own supposed elites) must form into entire hordes just to be on even-footing with Marines.
2) Marines have long since ceased to be underdogs. So rather than stories of Marines fighting "against the worse of odds" and prevailing through skill, tactics and sheer determination and zealotry, we instead have ridiculous Doom-inspired power-fantasies of invincible supermen mowing down hordes of supposedly elite aliens, and casually crushing "terrifying" chaos daemons beneath their boots. This makes for atrocious stories (how can you possibly have meaningful tension when the protagonists are clearly the strongest beings in existence?), and even worse gameplay.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2020/10/12 15:02:14
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
I don't disagree with any of that. I have stopped caring about warhammer stories a long time ago, specially those centered aroud bolter porn or the typical lore heroes.
Thats why I would prefer for ork nobz, necron inmortals, etc... to still be much superior troops than normal space marines. I don't have a problem with Necron Warriors, Ork Boyz, etc... being substantially inferior to normal baseline space marines when those armies have access to better troops than your average space marine.
As with all my "ideal scenarios", at least for me the biggest problems are still , Eldar. I just don't know how to make them elite without making them just Harlequins.
Basically for this, from Fantasy:
Spoiler:
Phoenix guard:
Chaos warrior:
Chaos chosen:
The most elite elven special unit was comparable to your "average" Chaos Warrior aka fantasy-marines.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 15:10:31
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2020/10/12 15:35:03
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Galas wrote: I can't agree that it feelt "right" that a basic tactical marine was outfighted by a ork boy and outshoot by a Tau Firewarrior
That was never the case, though. Marines have always been better one-on-one than any other faction's base troops, save for 3rd/4th Ed Necrons.
I mean, take the worst-case scenario, 10 Choppa+Slugga Boyz charging a unit of 10 Tacticals (so the Orks are getting +1S and +1A) in 4th Ed, when Boyz were really nasty.
Marines hit first due to I4, so:
10 Tacticals, 11 attacks, 5.5 hits, 2.75 wounds, 2.3 unsaved.
7.7 Boyz remain, 30.8 attacks, 15.4 hits, 7.7 wounds, 2.56 unsaved.
The Boyz barely kill more Marines despite them being specialized into close combat while the Marines are specialized into shooting, and in subsequent turns as the Boyz drop from S4/A4 to S3/A3 they get creamed by the basic Tacticals.
Now shooting, as compared to Fire Warriors.
10 Tacticals shooting Fire Warriors at Rapid Fire range get 19 shots, 12.67 hits, 8.45 wounds, 4.23 kills.
10 Fire Warriors shooting Tacticals at Rapid Fire range get 20 shots, 10 hits, 6.67 wounds, 2.23 kills.
The Tacticals are nearly twice as good at shooting as 4th Ed Fire Warriors given comparable numbers. Heck, they can sit at the narrow range band where the Fire Warriors are shooting twice while the Marines only get to shoot once, and they're still nearly on par.
You always needed either high-level specialists or superior numbers to beat Marines.
When people complained about the power of Marines, it wasn't that they lost to other races 1-on-1, it's that they felt that Marines weren't superior enough when compared to Marine-centric fluff that shows Marines taking on entire armies on their own (as opposed to, like, the intro from Dawn of War, which goes pretty much like that Ork comparison above, or Fall of Malvolion where a whole company of Lamenters dies in 40 minutes, or fluff from anyone else's perspective).
None of that has changed, it's just been pushed to an extreme. Getting 15 Boyz into combat with 10 Tacticals isn't enough anymore; you need 30 Boyz to make it in with 10 Intercessors, and start with a lot more than that since you'll inevitably lose a bunch to 30" Rapid Fire AP-1 shooting and Overwatch.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 15:37:08
I mean, your comparison isn't really fair because you aren't using units with the same point cost. Of course 10 custodes infantry are better than 10 IG infantry. But when the statlines are badly designed and pointed, you feel like you are outnumbered and underpowered. I remember feeling like that with my dark angels at the beginning of 8th when I faced an Imperial Guard army (when they had a codex) and he had nearly as many tanks as I had marine infantry, betweent manticores, basilisks, leman russes, and then infantry squads and tempestus scions.
Point per point ork boyz and Tau firewarriors have always laughed on tacticals. I believe is disingenuous to present the argument of people that felt like space marines were basically schmucks as if they wanted them to be bolter-porn protagonists or movie marines.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 15:50:54
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2020/10/12 15:57:04
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Lance845 wrote: Yes, lets. Because we are working off stock troop comparisons apparently. But then lets compare.
You're the one who brought up warriors...
No it's not. 40 shots with character support shooting at 2+ BS with 3+ wounds and AP-2 cannot kill a 5 model unit of infantry. AND they have to get within 12" to do it. That is not a pretty good return. Thats a garbage return.
Those warriors cost 260 points and with support (the Necron codex relies on setting up webs of support to function) generate a 52% return on investment against TEQ. Terminators were also buffed specifically to become harder to kill, this is the goal of the changes made.
If they were against MEQ or PEQ such a unit becomes massive overkill and thus inefficient which is why you won't see 20 warrior bricks armed with gauss reapers. Proposed lists uses blocks of 20 with humble gauss flayers and then blocks of 10 with reapers in ghost arks to bring the pain where it's needed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 16:05:02
2020/10/12 16:15:36
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Lance845 wrote: Yes, lets. Because we are working off stock troop comparisons apparently. But then lets compare.
You're the one who brought up warriors...
No it's not. 40 shots with character support shooting at 2+ BS with 3+ wounds and AP-2 cannot kill a 5 model unit of infantry. AND they have to get within 12" to do it. That is not a pretty good return. Thats a garbage return.
Those warriors cost 260 points and with support (the Necron codex relies on setting up webs of support to function) generate a 52% return on investment against TEQ. Terminators were also buffed specifically to become harder to kill, this is the goal of the changes made.
If they were against MEQ or PEQ such a unit becomes massive overkill and thus inefficient which is why you won't see 20 warrior bricks armed with gauss reapers. Proposed lists uses blocks of 20 with humble gauss flayers and then blocks of 10 with reapers in ghost arks to bring the pain where it's needed.
You're the one who wanted more examples of how it takes like 750-1500 points of models to kill 1 5 model unit of marine infantry.
You are just wrong man. Nobody wants to be playing the game where stock infantry are useless. Nobody wants to play the game where it takes hundreds of shots to kill 5 models. Again, it's bad for the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 16:17:03
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2020/10/12 16:21:06
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Not to mention, it could be 260 points of Necron Warriors with buffs to kill five three-four Terminators, and therefore just over 350 to kill a squad. A squad that, mind you, costs only 190 points, as compared to 260+buffs.
Or it could be as hard as over 1,000 points (over 80 Warriors) to kill a five-man TEQ squad, if they have Storm Shields and Cover.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/10/12 16:30:17
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2020/10/12 16:31:13
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Galas wrote: I don't disagree with any of that. I have stopped caring about warhammer stories a long time ago, specially those centered aroud bolter porn or the typical lore heroes.
Thats why I would prefer for ork nobz, necron inmortals, etc... to still be much superior troops than normal space marines. I don't have a problem with Necron Warriors, Ork Boyz, etc... being substantially inferior to normal baseline space marines when those armies have access to better troops than your average space marine.
As with all my "ideal scenarios", at least for me the biggest problems are still , Eldar. I just don't know how to make them elite without making them just Harlequins.
Basically for this, from Fantasy:
Spoiler:
Phoenix guard:
Chaos warrior:
Chaos chosen:
The most elite elven special unit was comparable to your "average" Chaos Warrior aka fantasy-marines.
Unless I'm misremembering, Phoenix Guard did have a 4+ Ward save (equivalent to an invulnerable), which helped them considerably in terms of their elite status.
Regardless, I get what you're saying and I don't disagree.
Though I will say that this seems like one of the problems with splitting Harlequins off, as they're now competing with the other Eldar factions for mechanics and design space. Though even then, it does seem very difficult to represent Eldar without making even their elite units overly weak and fragile.
IMO the Initiative mechanic really needs to make a comeback. Firstly, so that Eldar can feel fast in more ways than an extra inch of movement (seriously, who even cares?), and secondly so that Power Fists and their equivalents can go back to having a meaningful downside. -1 to hit in the edition of rerolls and buff-stacking just isn't enough to make up for the power these weapons currently have over other melee weapons (not really an Eldar problem - just something that's been bothering me for a while ).
Anyway, I think it's worth noting that Elves and Dark Elves in WHFB tended to get their status from special rules, rather than from toughness or saves. e.g.:
Always Strikes First - Aside from doing the obvious, this rule also granted them rerolls to hit agaisnt any units with lower Initiative.
Reroll 1s to wound - I can't remember if High Elves got this, but Dark Elves definitely did
+1 to all cast rolls with their own magic lore
etc.
The trouble is, Initiative no longer exists, rerolls don't mean much when Marines can get the same anyway, and Dark Eldar don't have psykers, let alone their own lore of magic.
To put it another way, the main thing that was used to make Elves and Dark Elves feel more elite was already given to Marines in spades.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2020/10/12 16:32:36
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
Galas wrote: I mean, your comparison isn't really fair because you aren't using units with the same point cost.
But that's the entire point of this conversation. We're not talking about point-for-point efficiency, we're talking about where individual Marines stand on the power scale. Per model Marines have historically been right where they should be, being better than anyone else's core troops but losing out to more specialized elite units, with a T4/W1/3+ profile. If they needed a points reduction to be worthwhile, that's another issue entirely, but in terms of design they were right at the middle of the road. They didn't need a second wound to get there.
Now Marines are at the very top, but since Marines are by far the most common army and the most common matchup is Marines-vs-Marines, it just means Marines are still the baseline average and nearly everything else exists on a scale of horde unit to worthless chaff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 16:33:19
JNAProductions wrote: Not to mention, it could be 260 points of Necron Warriors with buffs to kill five three-four Terminators, and therefore just over 350 to kill a squad. A squad that, mind you, costs only 190 points, as compared to 260+buffs.
Or it could be as hard as over 1,000 points (over 80 Warriors) to kill a five-man TEQ squad, if they have Storm Shields and Cover.
Is a 50% point efficiency in shooting not good enough? Should we even be answering terminators with basic troops rather than other elite or heavy support choices?
This isn't to mention that those 20 warriors may still have the option to charge something with +1 to the roll which could raise their single turn efficiency by even more.
2020/10/12 16:39:43
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
JNAProductions wrote: Not to mention, it could be 260 points of Necron Warriors with buffs to kill five three-four Terminators, and therefore just over 350 to kill a squad. A squad that, mind you, costs only 190 points, as compared to 260+buffs.
Or it could be as hard as over 1,000 points (over 80 Warriors) to kill a five-man TEQ squad, if they have Storm Shields and Cover.
Is a 50% point efficiency in shooting not good enough? Should we even be answering terminators with basic troops rather than other elite or heavy support choices?
This isn't to mention that those 20 warriors may still have the option to charge something with +1 to the roll which could raise their single turn efficiency by even more.
In a good game? 50% return should be pretty damn good.
In current 40k, though, it's not.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/10/12 16:45:59
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
IMO the Initiative mechanic really needs to make a comeback. Firstly, so that Eldar can feel fast in more ways than an extra inch of movement (seriously, who even cares?), and secondly so that Power Fists and their equivalents can go back to having a meaningful downside. -1 to hit in the edition of rerolls and buff-stacking just isn't enough to make up for the power these weapons currently have over other melee weapons (not really an Eldar problem - just something that's been bothering me for a while ).
Before 8th came out I was working on a fan version of 7th.
In that version I had scrapped initiative as a stat for a system that included a couple keywords on weapons.
Similar to 8th, whoever charged/turn it was got to attack first.
But some weapons/units had "Swift" which let them attack first and others had "slow" that had them attack last. If 2 had the same keyword then they would default to the turn structure to determine who goes first. Essentially there were 6 initiative steps.
Current player swift Opponent swift Current play Opponent Current player slow Opponent slow
So tyranid Scything talons would be swift weapons while rending claws had no speed related keyword (do you want to hit first or hit better?) Certain Eldar weapons/units would generally have swift (probably even a majority) Power fist and crushing claws would have slow.
You don't need to add in the initiative stat which universally feths over certain armies (orks/necrons) and instead the key word just shifts the things that need to be shifted up or down a step so they can act as appropriate in the correct situation.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 16:51:03
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2020/10/12 16:46:00
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
So every faction should get eradicators and the like?
No, I'd prefer every faction get toned down in lethality considerably.
I admit, I got a bit caught up in the arguing-never good, always bad.
My personal desire is for every Codex to be released in short order, with good internal and external balance, with tabling someone being a pretty difficult endeavor because lethality was dropped by a ton.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/10/12 16:53:28
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
JNAProductions wrote: No, I'd prefer every faction get toned down in lethality considerably.
I admit, I got a bit caught up in the arguing-never good, always bad.
My personal desire is for every Codex to be released in short order, with good internal and external balance, with tabling someone being a pretty difficult endeavor because lethality was dropped by a ton.
You can literally quote me, in this thread, saying that Marines are over-tuned right now. My argument isn't that Marines are balanced, rather it's that they aren't over-tuned because they gained some durability.
If you couldn't back terminators with something capable of damage dealing overkill, they'd just get stuck in a tarpit all game; the same goes for 2W tactical squads. The issue is that Marines have other units that kill too much that enable these tough units to function.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 16:54:30
2020/10/12 16:58:18
Subject: I don’t think marines should have two wounds
JNAProductions wrote: No, I'd prefer every faction get toned down in lethality considerably.
I admit, I got a bit caught up in the arguing-never good, always bad.
My personal desire is for every Codex to be released in short order, with good internal and external balance, with tabling someone being a pretty difficult endeavor because lethality was dropped by a ton.
You can literally quote me, in this thread, saying that Marines are over-tuned right now. My argument isn't that Marines are balanced, rather it's that they aren't over-tuned because they gained some durability.
If you couldn't back terminators with something capable of damage dealing overkill, they'd just get stuck in a tarpit all game; the same goes for 2W tactical squads. The issue is that Marines have other units that kill too much that enable these tough units to function.
But, in order to tune the game back down, they need to loose those changes. If the lethality of the game goes down those extra wounds are insanity (it's insanity now but whatever). And as shown through examples here often units are not lethal enough despite throwing WAY too many dice.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
The Bloody Sails 
).
