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It brings them closer to the lore representation of Marines, which im all for. We may see more multi damage weapons in upcoming dexes. The problem would be in the points, hopefully theyll be priced correctly

 catbarf wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:You see to think a marine is a guardsmen. That is why. Which is clearly not what a marine is. Middle of the road does not describe a marine.

Xenomancers wrote:This does not work in practice and is actually not what marines are. Marines excell at everything. The way you handle it is by giving them less models to work with. Thats why we call them elites.

I think you've completely misunderstood Unit's point, because that's exactly what they were suggesting. Individually Marines should be better at fighting than Orks and better at shooting than Tau. Collectively, meaning for the points, Marines should be worse than Orks at melee and worse than Tau at shooting. As an army, they should be middle of the road.

As far as I can tell- and I couch it that way because it seems utterly ridiculous on the face of it- some Marine players expect that their Marines will be not only individually superior, but collectively just as strong as more specialized armies, and bristle at the idea of Orks being able to out-fight them and Tau being able to out-shoot them.

I don't think orks are a good example here.They are really a well rounded army in terms of what they can do - they are really very good at shooting which is just ironic because they have bad BS.

Custodes are a better example. If custodes get significant melee off against marines its over and theres nothing more that a unit of wardens would rather slice through than a unit of primaris marines. The primaris stand no chance in that matchup. Nor should they. Just imagine the difference in quality there and how useless the primaris are there. Why would it be any difference with primaris marines fighting gaurdsmen? or orks? It shouldn't.

Units have roles. It's like rock paper scissors.

Want to slaughter marines in melee - bring incubi/ custodians/ or mega nobbs. Don't expect to fight them with chaff. Marines MURDER chaff. It is their job. I know it sounds silly with 40 point eradicators running around but you have to bring your armies elite stuff to face primaris units. Primaris are an elite type unit that excells at killing chaff. Bring elite type units that excell at killing elites and youll come out on top.

So what is the purpose of all these horde type units? Well...to take up space...slow things down...tie things up while your killers get work done. This is stuff elite armies can't do because they dont have these type units. If these strategies aren't effective it is an issue with the horde units themselves IMO. Cause I have no problem killing marines with the right units.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Shock Assault is bloat - 90% of the time its +1 A for Marines - so just add it on to the stats.

But then they would actually have to price marines correctly and that would make them mad.

You mean primaris, no reason to be Mad at tacs or csm .

Yes because Primaris melee is such a huge issue LOL

You mean like Intercessors being AS GOOD point for point as Ork boyz in CC, while being significantly more durable and better at shooting?

Yeah, they can't spam CC units like horde factions, but a squad of 10 Intercessors are as good as a comparable value of ork boyz in CC and that is the problem.

TIL a 20 point Primaris is the same per point as 2 Orks when it comes to melee, even though the latter obviously has way more attacks even with the range loadout

4 Primaris Intercessors are 80pts. I can field 10 Orkz for that same price.

Each side goes in tandem, nobody goes 1st.

10 Orkz in CC (Choppas) get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 3.33 dmg for 1 dead intercessor and 1 wound.
4 Intercessors get 12 attacks, 8 hits 4 wounds and 3.33 dmg for 3 dead boyz.

Orkz did 20pts of ACTUAL damage, and 30pts of dmg if you include wounds.
Intercessors did 24pts of ACTUAL damage.

Orkz lost 30% efficiency.
Intercessors lost 25% efficiency.

Intercessors are literally AS good as Choppa boyz in CC. If you make them Shoota boyz its hands down intercessors, as the boyz lose 1/3rd of their attacks.

At range, those choppa boyz get gunned down. 4 Intercessors = 8 shots, 5.3 hits, 2.6 wounds for basically 2-3 dead boyz at 30' range, the choppa boyz can't even shoot with 12' pistols, And the Shoota boyz are ranged 18' so will also be out of range.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
Not sure about Orks, but I'm pretty sure you need 10 Wyches to kill a Primaris Intercessor. Maybe 8 of them if they are high.

That's roughly 90-110 pts of melee based models to kill a 20 pts dude.

A 20% return isn't terrible

A 20% return isn't terrible, but its not what you would expect from a unit designed to function in 1 specific phase. If Aggressors only managed a 20% return in the shooting phase they would never be played. So intercessors getting 25-30% in CC is more than acceptable because they are also as good in the shooting phase. Choppa boyz on the other hand, useless in the shooting phase, should probably do a bit better in the CC phase.

 Xenomancers wrote:
This does not work in practice and is actually not what marines are. Marines excell at everything. The way you handle it is by giving them less models to work with. Thats why we call them elites.

I agree 100%. Marines, 1 for 1, should be better than most other infantry/troop models. But NOT point for point and that is what I am talking about. 80pts of intercessors should not be performing AS well in CC as 80pts of Choppa boyz who specialize in CC and who lack ranged options worth mentioning.

 Denegaar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
Not sure about Orks, but I'm pretty sure you need 10 Wyches to kill a Primaris Intercessor. Maybe 8 of them if they are high.

That's roughly 90-110 pts of melee based models to kill a 20 pts dude.

A 20% return isn't terrible

No, it's not. But...

If it's the other way around, 10 Primaris Intercessors (the shooty ones) kill at least 5 Wyches. thats 200 to 55 points, more or less a 28% return. Your shootty Troops are better in combat than my melee ones.

Intercessors are probably undercosted, and wyches are probably overcosted. That's how it is... and it doesn't feel fair. But Wyches are way cooler than Intercessors, that's for sure.

Which shooty ones? They have three different guns and the option for the Grenade Launcher.

Well - the orks do do significantly more damage to orks than marines do.

How many choppa boys do choppa boys kill? Compared to marines per point. You have to look at all this stuff. I'm not saying you dont have a point.

Marines slaughter orks green tide. In both phases. Is that fair? Nah I don't think so. Boys cost too much. Probably need an upgrade on the choppa to make them do more damage to elites.Charge them a bit less for weapons that rarely hit. That kinda stuff.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
Not sure about Orks, but I'm pretty sure you need 10 Wyches to kill a Primaris Intercessor. Maybe 8 of them if they are high.

That's roughly 90-110 pts of melee based models to kill a 20 pts dude.

Sounds like power armor is doing it's job. How many gaurdsmen do whyches kill compared to primaris marnes per point?

Yeah man, it was a comparison of a "good at shooting" Troop vs a "good at fighting" Troop. The "good at shooting" one fights better. Wyches are made for fighting, they are pointless at shooting.

Fighting vs T3 the Wyches are more efficient, of course, but I think we still have a point complaining.

If we weren't talking in a vacuum, those Guardsmen would be pushing up the daisies long before the Intercessors got to charge...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which shooty ones? They have three different guns and the option for the Grenade Launcher.

I thought we were talking about the combat phase here, how does the ranged weapon enter into the conversation? I'm not sure if it has something to do with the models fighting capabilities.

I was refering to the "normal" Intercessor, not the "assault" one.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well - the orks do do significantly more damage to orks than marines do.

How many choppa boys do choppa boys kill? Compared to marines per point. You have to look at all this stuff. I'm not saying you dont have a point.

Marines slaughter orks green tide. In both phases. Is that fair? Nah I don't think so. Boys cost too much. Probably need an upgrade on the choppa to make them do more damage to elites.Charge them a bit less for weapons that rarely hit. That kinda stuff.

The thing is durability has no inherent value on it's own. It has value when coupled with offense or force multiplying output.

SM have durability WITH offensive output. If you gave 1 ork boy with no changes to their WS/BS/Str or weapons the same T/Sv/W/Ld as a primarus marine they would not be worth the same amount of points. Because just because it takes the same amount of damage to kill the ork the ork isn't capable of the same amount of output.

Because of that, the value of durability increases exponentially with increases in offensive ability.

If ork weapons and WS/BS get better, even if they got JUST as good as a primaris marine, their weak durability means they would still cost much less because that offensive output can be removed from the board much faster. Again, their weak durability has exponential cost in relation to offense.

SM have seen both increases in durability AND increases in offensive output since 8th codex 2.0. But they have not seen the exponential increases in cost to accommodate it.

 Denegaar wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
Not sure about Orks, but I'm pretty sure you need 10 Wyches to kill a Primaris Intercessor. Maybe 8 of them if they are high.

That's roughly 90-110 pts of melee based models to kill a 20 pts dude.

Sounds like power armor is doing it's job. How many gaurdsmen do whyches kill compared to primaris marnes per point?

Yeah man, it was a comparison of a "good at shooting" Troop vs a "good at fighting" Troop. The "good at shooting" one fights better. Wyches are made for fighting, they are pointless at shooting.

Fighting vs T3 the Wyches are more efficient, of course, but I think we still have a point complaining.

If we weren't talking in a vacuum, those Guardsmen would be pushing up the daisies long before the Intercessors got to charge...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which shooty ones? They have three different guns and the option for the Grenade Launcher.

I thought we were talking about the combat phase here, how does the ranged weapon enter into the conversation? I was refering to the "normal" Intercessor, the "not assault one".

A primaris marine is a good at shooting and good at melee troop. They specialize at killing light infantry at all ranges essentially Think about it this way. Every unit has another unit that makes it useless. Intercessors have almost no anti armor ability and are pretty weak against anything that is t5 or better or anything that can take away their save. Those units rek primaris marines. So should primaris marines lose without contest to those kinds of units but not be better against light infantry and chaff? Thats the way I see it.

I know you probably just want to be able to play your wyches and there is a sea of power armor out there and it's not fun for you. It would be a lot more fun if there were more gaurdsmen and geensteelers on the table for you. wyches do pretty good against those things.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well - the orks do do significantly more damage to orks than marines do.

How many choppa boys do choppa boys kill? Compared to marines per point. You have to look at all this stuff. I'm not saying you dont have a point.

Marines slaughter orks green tide. In both phases. Is that fair? Nah I don't think so. Boys cost too much. Probably need an upgrade on the choppa to make them do more damage to elites.Charge them a bit less for weapons that rarely hit. That kinda stuff.

The thing is durability has no inherent value on it's own. It has value when coupled with offense or force multiplying output.

SM have durability WITH offensive output. If you gave 1 ork boy with no changes to their WS/BS/Str or weapons the same T/Sv/W/Ld as a primarus marine they would not be worth the same amount of points. Because just because it takes the same amount of damage to kill the ork the ork isn't capable of the same amount of output.

Because of that, the value of durability increases exponentially with increases in offensive ability.

If ork weapons and WS/BS get better, even if they got JUST as good as a primaris marine, their weak durability means they would still cost much less because that offensive output can be removed from the board much faster. Again, their weak durability has exponential cost in relation to offense.

SM have seen both increases in durability AND increases in offensive output since 8th codex 2.0. But they have not seen the exponential increases in cost to accommodate it.

Hits the nail on the head.

We are making these comparisons because in a 1vs1 battle those SM TAC intercessors are out performing or at the least matching a dedicated CC unit in CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

A primaris marine is a good at shooting and good at melee troop. They specialize at killing light infantry at all ranges essentially Think about it this way. Every unit has another unit that makes it useless. Intercessors have almost no anti armor ability and are pretty weak against anything that is t5 or better or anything that can take away their save. Those units rek primaris marines. So should primaris marines lose without contest to those kinds of units but not be better against light infantry and chaff? Thats the way I see it.

I know you probably just want to be able to play your wyches and there is a sea of power armor out there and it's not fun for you. It would be a lot more fun if there were more gaurdsmen and geensteelers on the table for you. wyches do pretty good against those things.

Your argument isn't holding up. You are stating that Your TROOPS choice should be as good or better as a TAC unit in CC than a dedicated CC Troop unit like Ork choppa boyz. But that is ok because your TAC troops unit isn't good vs armor. Where as those boyz are just as useless vs armor but die to those intercessors in ranged combat in droves and are just as good in CC.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well - the orks do do significantly more damage to orks than marines do.

How many choppa boys do choppa boys kill? Compared to marines per point. You have to look at all this stuff. I'm not saying you dont have a point.

Marines slaughter orks green tide. In both phases. Is that fair? Nah I don't think so. Boys cost too much. Probably need an upgrade on the choppa to make them do more damage to elites.Charge them a bit less for weapons that rarely hit. That kinda stuff.

The thing is durability has no inherent value on it's own. It has value when coupled with offense or force multiplying output.

SM have durability WITH offensive output. If you gave 1 ork boy with no changes to their WS/BS/Str or weapons the same T/Sv/W/Ld as a primarus marine they would not be worth the same amount of points. Because just because it takes the same amount of damage to kill the ork the ork isn't capable of the same amount of output.

Because of that, the value of durability increases exponentially with increases in offensive ability.

If ork weapons and WS/BS get better, even if they got JUST as good as a primaris marine, their weak durability means they would still cost much less because that offensive output can be removed from the board much faster. Again, their weak durability has exponential cost in relation to offense.

SM have seen both increases in durability AND increases in offensive output since 8th codex 2.0. But they have not seen the exponential increases in cost to accommodate it.

They really havn't gotten much in terms of durability. It is just their offense that increased a great deal with + attacks and bonus AP in certain rounds. Plus stratagems.

Gravis did go to 3 wounds (which is a good change IMO) Gravis at 2 wounds was an actual joke. Like...barely gave a defensive boost vs the stuff thats already good at killing a primaris marine. In this 9th 3ed codex mini marines did go to 2 wounds but did see a big cost increase. The are essentially going to be all you see now. (Hope you guys like sterngard.)Plus there is also the issue that books don't all come out at once. Marines have doctrines. other armies don't and will soon be getting something similar for free.

The reality is the game - the way they release the armies in the game is a joke. It is intentionally unbalanced by releasing the codexes staggered.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I know you probably just want to be able to play your wyches and there is a sea of power armor out there and it's not fun for you. It would be a lot more fun if there were more gaurdsmen and geensteelers on the table for you. wyches do pretty good against those things.

So "F your models because I play Intercessors."?

Wyches should be good against Space Marines, or at the very least not useless. There's no reward in delivering your badass CC units only to have them fold against your opponents basic troops.

 Xenomancers wrote:


I know you probably just want to be able to play your wyches and there is a sea of power armor out there and it's not fun for you. It would be a lot more fun if there were more gaurdsmen and geensteelers on the table for you. wyches do pretty good against those things.

Oh man, I have fun with the game! I love my models and I love to play them. I fight vs a lot of Admech and Craftworlds, so my Wyches have their weekly dose of pain. Of course if I want to kill Marines I send Incubi... that was not the point of my post.

And I talk about DE because is the army I know how to play, so I'm more comfortable giving those examples, but I'm pretty sure other Xenos have the same problems.

Space Marines still have 1 wound in Horus Heresy. That might be right up there with what you want.

I think 40k should do whatever makes the most screeching on Dakka.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well - the orks do do significantly more damage to orks than marines do.

How many choppa boys do choppa boys kill? Compared to marines per point. You have to look at all this stuff. I'm not saying you dont have a point.

Marines slaughter orks green tide. In both phases. Is that fair? Nah I don't think so. Boys cost too much. Probably need an upgrade on the choppa to make them do more damage to elites.Charge them a bit less for weapons that rarely hit. That kinda stuff.

The thing is durability has no inherent value on it's own. It has value when coupled with offense or force multiplying output.

SM have durability WITH offensive output. If you gave 1 ork boy with no changes to their WS/BS/Str or weapons the same T/Sv/W/Ld as a primarus marine they would not be worth the same amount of points. Because just because it takes the same amount of damage to kill the ork the ork isn't capable of the same amount of output.

Because of that, the value of durability increases exponentially with increases in offensive ability.

If ork weapons and WS/BS get better, even if they got JUST as good as a primaris marine, their weak durability means they would still cost much less because that offensive output can be removed from the board much faster. Again, their weak durability has exponential cost in relation to offense.

SM have seen both increases in durability AND increases in offensive output since 8th codex 2.0. But they have not seen the exponential increases in cost to accommodate it.

Hits the nail on the head.

We are making these comparisons because in a 1vs1 battle those SM TAC intercessors are out performing or at the least matching a dedicated CC unit in CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

A primaris marine is a good at shooting and good at melee troop. They specialize at killing light infantry at all ranges essentially Think about it this way. Every unit has another unit that makes it useless. Intercessors have almost no anti armor ability and are pretty weak against anything that is t5 or better or anything that can take away their save. Those units rek primaris marines. So should primaris marines lose without contest to those kinds of units but not be better against light infantry and chaff? Thats the way I see it.

I know you probably just want to be able to play your wyches and there is a sea of power armor out there and it's not fun for you. It would be a lot more fun if there were more gaurdsmen and geensteelers on the table for you. wyches do pretty good against those things.

Your argument isn't holding up. You are stating that Your TROOPS choice should be as good or better as a TAC unit in CC than a dedicated CC Troop unit like Ork choppa boyz. But that is ok because your TAC troops unit isn't good vs armor. Where as those boyz are just as useless vs armor but die to those intercessors in ranged combat in droves and are just as good in CC.

They aren't better though. They are better against boys. They aren't better against geensteelers. Choopas boys do a lot more total damage than priamris do. That is my point. The way I see it you are complaining that a unit loses to a unit it should lose to. Orks will beat geensteelers - geensteelers beat marines. True marines aren't dedicated melee unit. They are also a shooting unit and they pay extra for that. Now you start to deal with the too many eggs in 1 basket problem. Where that plasma gun starts getting better and better the more points go onto that 2 wound primaris that is going to have almost all of its "really good stats" completely ignored. It's a tricky business.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well - the orks do do significantly more damage to orks than marines do.

How many choppa boys do choppa boys kill? Compared to marines per point. You have to look at all this stuff. I'm not saying you dont have a point.

Marines slaughter orks green tide. In both phases. Is that fair? Nah I don't think so. Boys cost too much. Probably need an upgrade on the choppa to make them do more damage to elites.Charge them a bit less for weapons that rarely hit. That kinda stuff.

The thing is durability has no inherent value on it's own. It has value when coupled with offense or force multiplying output.

SM have durability WITH offensive output. If you gave 1 ork boy with no changes to their WS/BS/Str or weapons the same T/Sv/W/Ld as a primarus marine they would not be worth the same amount of points. Because just because it takes the same amount of damage to kill the ork the ork isn't capable of the same amount of output.

Because of that, the value of durability increases exponentially with increases in offensive ability.

If ork weapons and WS/BS get better, even if they got JUST as good as a primaris marine, their weak durability means they would still cost much less because that offensive output can be removed from the board much faster. Again, their weak durability has exponential cost in relation to offense.

SM have seen both increases in durability AND increases in offensive output since 8th codex 2.0. But they have not seen the exponential increases in cost to accommodate it.

They really havn't gotten much in terms of durability. It is just their offense that increased a great deal with + attacks and bonus AP in certain rounds. Plus stratagems.

Gravis did go to 3 wounds (which is a good change IMO) Gravis at 2 wounds was an actual joke. Like...barely gave a defensive boost vs the stuff thats already good at killing a primaris marine. In this 9th 3ed codex mini marines did go to 2 wounds but did see a big cost increase. The are essentially going to be all you see now. (Hope you guys like sterngard.)Plus there is also the issue that books don't all come out at once. Marines have doctrines. other armies don't and will soon be getting something similar for free.

The reality is the game - the way they release the armies in the game is a joke. It is intentionally unbalanced by releasing the codexes staggered.

So first, gravis gaining a wound, old marines gaining a wound, and terminators gaining 2 is all valued at a exponential increase in cost to their OLD offensive output. But then they also all got increases in offensive output beyond that so those extra wounds are worth EVEN MORE.

If for example durability 1 + offense 1 = cost 2
Then durability 1 + offense 2 = cost 4
The durability is more valuable per a unit of offense because it means that offense can do more.

So when SM basically went for 1+1=2 to 2+2=4 it should have actually been 2+2=7 or 8

Thats the problem.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I know you probably just want to be able to play your wyches and there is a sea of power armor out there and it's not fun for you. It would be a lot more fun if there were more gaurdsmen and geensteelers on the table for you. wyches do pretty good against those things.

So "F your models because I play Intercessors."?

Wyches should be good against Space Marines, or at the very least not useless. There's no reward in delivering your badass CC units only to have them fold against your opponents basic troops.

Why do we insist on calling 20 point units basic? That is not basic. Cost more than most armies elite infantry. Like there are plenty of wargames out there where...everyones infantry is basically the same like in ww2 simulators. It would make sense what you are saying there. Here in 40k it does not make sense.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I know you probably just want to be able to play your wyches and there is a sea of power armor out there and it's not fun for you. It would be a lot more fun if there were more gaurdsmen and geensteelers on the table for you. wyches do pretty good against those things.

So "F your models because I play Intercessors."?

Wyches should be good against Space Marines, or at the very least not useless. There's no reward in delivering your badass CC units only to have them fold against your opponents basic troops.

Why do we insist on calling 20 point units basic? That is not basic. Cost more than most armies elite infantry. Like there are plenty of wargames out there where...everyones infantry is basically the same like in ww2 simulators. It would make sense what you are saying there. Here in 40k it does not make sense.

Marine-spank in full effect over here. .

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I know you probably just want to be able to play your wyches and there is a sea of power armor out there and it's not fun for you. It would be a lot more fun if there were more gaurdsmen and geensteelers on the table for you. wyches do pretty good against those things.

So "F your models because I play Intercessors."?

Wyches should be good against Space Marines, or at the very least not useless. There's no reward in delivering your badass CC units only to have them fold against your opponents basic troops.

Wyches aren't some badass CC unit though.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I know you probably just want to be able to play your wyches and there is a sea of power armor out there and it's not fun for you. It would be a lot more fun if there were more gaurdsmen and geensteelers on the table for you. wyches do pretty good against those things.

So "F your models because I play Intercessors."?

Wyches should be good against Space Marines, or at the very least not useless. There's no reward in delivering your badass CC units only to have them fold against your opponents basic troops.

Why do we insist on calling 20 point units basic? That is not basic. Cost more than most armies elite infantry. Like there are plenty of wargames out there where...everyones infantry is basically the same like in ww2 simulators. It would make sense what you are saying there. Here in 40k it does not make sense.

No. Custodes cost 44 point per model for their troops. Thats an elite troop. Termagants cost 5. Thats a horde. At 20 PPM marines are basic middle of the road troops. If they are going to perform like elites then they need increases in costs. If they are going to stay this cheap they need to be easier to kill or not as effective.

 Xenomancers wrote:

They aren't better though. They are better against boys. They aren't better against geensteelers. Choopas boys do a lot more total damage than priamris do. That is my point. The way I see it you are complaining that a unit loses to a unit it should lose to. Orks will beat geensteelers - geensteelers beat marines. True marines aren't dedicated melee unit. They are also a shooting unit and they pay extra for that. Now you start to deal with the too many eggs in 1 basket problem. Where that plasma gun starts getting better and better the more points go onto that 2 wound primaris that is going to have almost all of its "really good stats" completely ignored. It's a tricky business.

...To summarize what you just said. You think its fine that your TAC UNIT when fighting against ork boyz can outperform them in shooting, durability and when they finally get into CC they actually match them point for point? That to you is "TAC" and fine because those Ork boyz can beat up Genestealers in CC where as intercessors lose to genestealers in CC.

4 GS are 60pts. In CC they get 12 attacks, hitting on 3s wounding on 4s at -1AP, wound rolls of 6 are -4AP. So 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds with 1 likely being -4 AP (no save allowed). Against the 3 others 1.5 goes through. So 4 GS kill 1 intercessor.

3 Intercessors are 60pts. In CC get 9 attacks, 6 hits 3 wounds, against a 5+ 2 dead Genestealers.

intercessors lost 1 model, maybe 1 extra wound 20, possibly 30 on the top end.
GS lost 2 models or 30pts.

Wow Xeno...

Your argument is flawed from the start, claiming a TAC unit should be as good as a CC unit in CC is just ridiculous (Point for point comparison) And your next argument is just as wrong.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

They aren't better though. They are better against boys. They aren't better against geensteelers. Choopas boys do a lot more total damage than priamris do. That is my point. The way I see it you are complaining that a unit loses to a unit it should lose to. Orks will beat geensteelers - geensteelers beat marines. True marines aren't dedicated melee unit. They are also a shooting unit and they pay extra for that. Now you start to deal with the too many eggs in 1 basket problem. Where that plasma gun starts getting better and better the more points go onto that 2 wound primaris that is going to have almost all of its "really good stats" completely ignored. It's a tricky business.

...To summarize what you just said. You think its fine that your TAC UNIT when fighting against ork boyz can outperform them in shooting, durability and when they finally get into CC they actually match them point for point? That to you is "TAC" and fine because those Ork boyz can beat up Genestealers in CC where as intercessors lose to genestealers in CC.

4 GS are 60pts. In CC they get 12 attacks, hitting on 3s wounding on 4s at -1AP, wound rolls of 6 are -4AP. So 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds with 1 likely being -4 AP (no save allowed). Against the 3 others 1.5 goes through. So 4 GS kill 1 intercessor.

3 Intercessors are 60pts. In CC get 9 attacks, 6 hits 3 wounds, against a 5+ 2 dead Genestealers.

intercessors lost 1 model, maybe 1 extra wound 20, possibly 30 on the top end.
GS lost 2 models or 30pts.

Wow Xeno...

Your argument is flawed from the start, claiming a TAC unit should be as good as a CC unit in CC is just ridiculous (Point for point comparison) And your next argument is just as wrong.

Wow it's almost as though Genestealers are bad vs multiwound models, big think time

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wow it's almost as though Genestealers are bad vs multiwound models, big think time

And yet, Xeno said otherwise. Don't get mad at me for running the math on his own flawed rationale.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

They aren't better though. They are better against boys. They aren't better against geensteelers. Choopas boys do a lot more total damage than priamris do. That is my point. The way I see it you are complaining that a unit loses to a unit it should lose to. Orks will beat geensteelers - geensteelers beat marines. True marines aren't dedicated melee unit. They are also a shooting unit and they pay extra for that. Now you start to deal with the too many eggs in 1 basket problem. Where that plasma gun starts getting better and better the more points go onto that 2 wound primaris that is going to have almost all of its "really good stats" completely ignored. It's a tricky business.

...To summarize what you just said. You think its fine that your TAC UNIT when fighting against ork boyz can outperform them in shooting, durability and when they finally get into CC they actually match them point for point? That to you is "TAC" and fine because those Ork boyz can beat up Genestealers in CC where as intercessors lose to genestealers in CC.

4 GS are 60pts. In CC they get 12 attacks, hitting on 3s wounding on 4s at -1AP, wound rolls of 6 are -4AP. So 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds with 1 likely being -4 AP (no save allowed). Against the 3 others 1.5 goes through. So 4 GS kill 1 intercessor.

3 Intercessors are 60pts. In CC get 9 attacks, 6 hits 3 wounds, against a 5+ 2 dead Genestealers.

intercessors lost 1 model, maybe 1 extra wound 20, possibly 30 on the top end.
GS lost 2 models or 30pts.

Wow Xeno...

Your argument is flawed from the start, claiming a TAC unit should be as good as a CC unit in CC is just ridiculous (Point for point comparison) And your next argument is just as wrong.

Wow it's almost as though Genestealers are bad vs multiwound models, big think time

Why should a powerful CC unit, one that doesn't have much durability and has no shooting, perform the same in melee as a unit that's shooty, durable, and punchy?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I know you probably just want to be able to play your wyches and there is a sea of power armor out there and it's not fun for you. It would be a lot more fun if there were more gaurdsmen and geensteelers on the table for you. wyches do pretty good against those things.

So "F your models because I play Intercessors."?

Wyches should be good against Space Marines, or at the very least not useless. There's no reward in delivering your badass CC units only to have them fold against your opponents basic troops.

Wyches aren't some badass CC unit though.

They keep getting worse and worse vs. Marines.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wow it's almost as though Genestealers are bad vs multiwound models, big think time

They keep getting worse and worse vs. marines.

Aspect Warriors getting worse and worse vs Mariness.

Necrons getting worse and worse vs. Marines.

There's a trend here. . . big think time, Slayer.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I know you probably just want to be able to play your wyches and there is a sea of power armor out there and it's not fun for you. It would be a lot more fun if there were more gaurdsmen and geensteelers on the table for you. wyches do pretty good against those things.

So "F your models because I play Intercessors."?

Wyches should be good against Space Marines, or at the very least not useless. There's no reward in delivering your badass CC units only to have them fold against your opponents basic troops.

Wyches aren't some badass CC unit though.

They used to be, and in fact used to actually be very capable against Space Marines in particular in CC in previous editions, removing an attack from paired weapons (so no True Grit, no BP/CCW attacks, etc) and sporting a 4+ invul in CC with high initative and a multi-attack armor-save ignoring Agonizer that allowed the squad leader to smack anything on a 4+ regardless of their weeny S3, and were halving enemy WS for attacks back at them, plus the effects of combat drugs. In 3E/4E, that unit was entirely capable of engaging many Marine units and coming out on top it they were utilized properly (and would die horribly if not).

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I know you probably just want to be able to play your wyches and there is a sea of power armor out there and it's not fun for you. It would be a lot more fun if there were more gaurdsmen and geensteelers on the table for you. wyches do pretty good against those things.

So "F your models because I play Intercessors."?

Wyches should be good against Space Marines, or at the very least not useless. There's no reward in delivering your badass CC units only to have them fold against your opponents basic troops.

Wyches aren't some badass CC unit though.

They keep getting worse and worse vs. Marines.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wow it's almost as though Genestealers are bad vs multiwound models, big think time

They keep getting worse and worse vs. marines.

Aspect Warriors getting worse and worse vs Mariness.

Necrons getting worse and worse vs. Marines.

There's a trend here. . . big think time, Slayer.

What do you mean Necrons were getting worse and worse? Did you pay attention to Immortals and Warriors AT ALL with the new Necron codex? Wyches were also always gak vs Marines, so somehow this is shocking for you?
Also Aspect Warriors can't have gotten worse than Marines since we literally don't have a codex yet, or did you already forget how Marines got worse each time a new Eldar codex was released LOL


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I know you probably just want to be able to play your wyches and there is a sea of power armor out there and it's not fun for you. It would be a lot more fun if there were more gaurdsmen and geensteelers on the table for you. wyches do pretty good against those things.

So "F your models because I play Intercessors."?

Wyches should be good against Space Marines, or at the very least not useless. There's no reward in delivering your badass CC units only to have them fold against your opponents basic troops.

Wyches aren't some badass CC unit though.

They used to be, and in fact used to actually be very capable against Space Marines in particular in CC in previous editions, removing an attack from paired weapons (so no True Grit, no BP/CCW attacks, etc) and sporting a 4+ invul in CC with high initative and a multi-attack armor-save ignoring Agonizer that allowed the squad leader to smack anything on a 4+ regardless of their weeny S3, and were halving enemy WS for attacks back at them, plus the effects of combat drugs. In 3E/4E, that unit was entirely capable of engaging many Marine units and coming out on top it they were utilized properly (and would die horribly if not).

Dark Eldar weren't really a good army for most players and games in general anyway with that early codex. Not sure how you're even proving a point here.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

What do you mean Necrons were getting worse and worse? Did you pay attention to Immortals and Warriors AT ALL with the new Necron codex? Wyches were also always gak vs Marines, so somehow this is shocking for you?
Also Aspect Warriors can't have gotten worse than Marines since we literally don't have a codex yet, or did you already forget how Marines got worse each time a new Eldar codex was released LOL

Basically nothing you said is true.

Do you think Necron Warriors and Immortals are tougher vs. Marines than they were 15 years ago?

Same for Aspect Warriors, Wyches, etc. in terms of a combination of resilience and striking power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When I played against DE back in the day, I recall Wyches getting a 4++ in CC, hitting first with a high initiative, and Marines only having one attack back unless they charged, which was rare.

How does that compare to now?

Xenomancers wrote:A primaris marine is a good at shooting and good at melee troop. They specialize at killing light infantry at all ranges essentially Think about it this way. Every unit has another unit that makes it useless. Intercessors have almost no anti armor ability and are pretty weak against anything that is t5 or better or anything that can take away their save. Those units rek primaris marines.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Wow it's almost as though Genestealers are bad vs multiwound models, big think time

I've got it, guys! All you need to do to beat Primaris is spam T5+ models that deal multiple wounds and have the AP to ignore Marine armor saves.

So don't bother with any of your basic infantry, they're worthless. Use them to hold objectives. Yeah, they get blown off the table by basic Bolt Rifles let alone Aggressors (even after the nerf) so that doesn't actually work, but pretend it does.

And don't bother with anti-infantry specialists either, they're worthless too unless they've got D2. Sorry Aspect Warriors, sorry Genestealers, sorry Flayed Ones, you were great at killing Marines in Warhammer 40,000 but this is Marinehammer 40,200 and times have changed, baby! You'd best find another game*.

In fact, don't even bother bringing anything that's not a tank. I mean, what the feth else are you gonna find that has T5+ and D2+ and ignores armor and doesn't get murdered by Bolt Rifles?

But don't worry, this is balanced- after all, to balance out their basic fething infantry hard countering 95+% of the infantry in the game, surely they won't have any reliable way to counter your tanks. Not like, oh, deep striking infantry with grav weapons, or heavy infantry with double-tapping multi-meltas, or bikes with multi-meltas, or flat D4 thunder hammers. That might be a bit too much!

*- Although actually, come to think about it, 'find a game against armies that aren't Space Marines played by clueless apologists' actually is a pretty solid strategy!

As a primary marine player for 20+ years, Marine players are embarrassing. Thank god I bought a Tyranid army.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

What do you mean Necrons were getting worse and worse? Did you pay attention to Immortals and Warriors AT ALL with the new Necron codex? Wyches were also always gak vs Marines, so somehow this is shocking for you?
Also Aspect Warriors can't have gotten worse than Marines since we literally don't have a codex yet, or did you already forget how Marines got worse each time a new Eldar codex was released LOL

Basically nothing you said is true.

Do you think Necron Warriors and Immortals are tougher vs. Marines than they were 15 years ago?

Same for Aspect Warriors, Wyches, etc. in terms of a combination of resilience and striking power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When I played against DE back in the day, I recall Wyches getting a 4++ in CC, hitting first with a high initiative, and Marines only having one attack back unless they charged, which was rare.

How does that compare to now?

They've fluctuated. Immortals are definitely in a better spot due to the new point cost for the same save and T5 they had in the 3rd edition codex AND being troops. The RP they currently have is more powerful than 3-5 + 8th, and about the same to less powerful than the 7th edition iteration. Being tougher to Marines though, absolutely compared to the disaster of the 8th iteration. The current RP + T5 is a god send, especially with the revamped weapons too.

Also Wyches required a gak ton of points put into them in order to actually do anything to even Marines. No they weren't good and yes people have rose tinted glasses on with that disaster of a codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
As a primary marine player for 20+ years, Marine players are embarrassing. Thank god I bought a Tyranid army.

The only thing embarrassing is your constant defense of the Tactical Marine unit entry.