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 Galas wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
TBH even playing Tau it always felt a little cheap that Firewarrior pulse rifle was better than space marines bolter.

Gods. . . Why?

I started playing warhammer 40k as a Tau and they are my biggest army, they are my second favourite because I fell in love with Custodes, but lets say that theres one thing I agree with Irbis, and its that in most of their history, Tau fluff and rules writter make the most bolterporn-lovers marine writters look like noobs by comparison.

Tau are supposed to be this new race that has no fear to try and developt new technology, and for example they made it great with the Tau Plasma vs Imperial Plasma pre 8th, Tau was weaker but safer and Imperial more powerfull but risky. But theres just no reason why a pulse rifle, a weapon made by a 6000 year old race, the weapon they arm their basic troop with, that has literally no drawback, is extensely availible, is better than the bolter, the sacred weapon designed in the age of the Emperor, to arm his super-soldier legions. I could have accepted the extra range because, like, the weapon is quite a bit longer and all of that, but the extra strenght compared with a bolter? Why?

And then you have with a ton of Tau weaponry thats much more powerfull than literally the best imperial weaponry and is, again, like... why? Are so useless the Humans that they weren't capable of doing relic weapons in the Dark Age of Technology that can compete with Tau weapons? Lets say I'm one of those "I prefer my Tau tanks than my Tau mechas" Tau players.

Bolters are not very sophisticated, and they're certainly not technological pinnacles of the DAoT or anything. Heck, in 2nd edition Orks could use Bolters. The point of a Bolter is that it can be mass produced and makes a big S4 bang. They're common things on IG vehicles, disposable turrets, and in hive gangs. They're weapons of war for an Imperium that doesn't respect scientific progress, and has forgotten so much of it's past technological prowess.

Tau have flying tanks*, drones, smart missiles, actively races forward with technology and presumably cares far more about individual soldiers than the Imperium does about the Guardsmen. It makes total sense that there could be a personal weapon that outshines the Bolter, it's just a matter of cost and will. Technically the Imperium could give every soldier a Plasma Gun, the only reason they don't is cost.

Plus, a Fire Warrior is worse off than a Marnie is every other area of ability, strictly worse off across the board. Why would it be so bad to give them just one area in which they were at least marginally better?


*Yes, of course the Imperium has flying tanks now but F all that #$%t.

Tau Fire Warriors are, what? 9 points each?

So compare them to 9 Intercessors. 20 Fire Warriors.

If they stand still, giving FW first turn...



Two turns in, and two Intercessors are dead. But half the Fire Warriors are.

If the Fire Warriors move closer to try to get Rapid Fire, that'll put them in charge range of Intercessors, meaning they'll get hosed harder. Intercessors are also more durable and have access to a lot more buffs.

Intercessors shoot better than a Fire Warrior, point for point. I can check the math against other targets, but outside of T8 models and T4 or T5 models that use Invulns instead of Armor, I don't think the Fire Warriors will come out ahead. And it's not a contest who fights better or is more durable.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
TBH even playing Tau it always felt a little cheap that Firewarrior pulse rifle was better than space marines bolter.

Gods. . . Why?

I started playing warhammer 40k as a Tau and they are my biggest army, they are my second favourite because I fell in love with Custodes, but lets say that theres one thing I agree with Irbis, and its that in most of their history, Tau fluff and rules writter make the most bolterporn-lovers marine writters look like noobs by comparison.

Tau are supposed to be this new race that has no fear to try and developt new technology, and for example they made it great with the Tau Plasma vs Imperial Plasma pre 8th, Tau was weaker but safer and Imperial more powerfull but risky. But theres just no reason why a pulse rifle, a weapon made by a 6000 year old race, the weapon they arm their basic troop with, that has literally no drawback, is extensely availible, is better than the bolter, the sacred weapon designed in the age of the Emperor, to arm his super-soldier legions. I could have accepted the extra range because, like, the weapon is quite a bit longer and all of that, but the extra strenght compared with a bolter? Why?

And then you have with a ton of Tau weaponry thats much more powerfull than literally the best imperial weaponry and is, again, like... why? Are so useless the Humans that they weren't capable of doing relic weapons in the Dark Age of Technology that can compete with Tau weapons? Lets say I'm one of those "I prefer my Tau tanks than my Tau mechas" Tau players.

Bolters are not very sophisticated, and they're certainly not technological pinnacles of the DAoT or anything. Heck, in 2nd edition Orks could use Bolters. The point of a Bolter is that it can be mass produced and makes a big S4 bang. They're common things on IG vehicles, disposable turrets, and in hive gangs. They're weapons of war for an Imperium that doesn't respect scientific progress, and has forgotten so much of it's past technological prowess.

Tau have flying tanks*, drones, smart missiles, actively races forward with technology and presumably cares far more about individual soldiers than the Imperium does about the Guardsmen. It makes total sense that there could be a personal weapon that outshines the Bolter, it's just a matter of cost and will. Technically the Imperium could give every soldier a Plasma Gun, the only reason they don't is cost.

Plus, a Fire Warrior is worse off than a Marnie is every other area of ability, strictly worse off across the board. Why would it be so bad to give them just one area in which they were at least marginally better?


*Yes, of course the Imperium has flying tanks now but F all that #$%t.

It would be like having Orks equiped with better meele weapons than space marines (And in some editions choppaz were better than space marines knives or chainswords because reasons) . The point of the Tau is that compared with the imperium they have more refined technology that sacrifices potency for other virtues: Range, being safe, etc... but the Imperium is miles ahead technologically than the Tau, not just in the technology they had in the Dark Age of Technology or in the Great Crusade, but even today their technology can look more brutish than Tau but it is much more powerfull with the exception of extremely low tier and common stuff like lasguns.

The Tau fluff of "The Imperium is fielding Warlord titans but we are destroying them with just a single Tau flyer because lol" , as I said, read more like Tau fanfiction, and it did get even worse with the Damocles gulf campaing books.

I like my Taus as the newcomers that try to be the nice guys and play safe. I don't like anime taus with stronger, faster, and better equipement than nearly everyone, even Eldar and Necrons because "lol gundams". Maybe you don't agree with bolters being better than Pulse rifles but avenger shuriken catapults? Gauss flayers? They had their armor penetration bonuses but I would argue the pulse rifle was a all around better weapon with higher strenght and a significant range difference.



The math is nice but I don't think anyone said that Firewarriors were better at shooting than Intercessors. Intercessors are the best troop in the game without a doubt.

 Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
TBH even playing Tau it always felt a little cheap that Firewarrior pulse rifle was better than space marines bolter.

Gods. . . Why?

I started playing warhammer 40k as a Tau and they are my biggest army, they are my second favourite because I fell in love with Custodes, but lets say that theres one thing I agree with Irbis, and its that in most of their history, Tau fluff and rules writter make the most bolterporn-lovers marine writters look like noobs by comparison.

Tau are supposed to be this new race that has no fear to try and developt new technology, and for example they made it great with the Tau Plasma vs Imperial Plasma pre 8th, Tau was weaker but safer and Imperial more powerfull but risky. But theres just no reason why a pulse rifle, a weapon made by a 6000 year old race, the weapon they arm their basic troop with, that has literally no drawback, is extensely availible, is better than the bolter, the sacred weapon designed in the age of the Emperor, to arm his super-soldier legions. I could have accepted the extra range because, like, the weapon is quite a bit longer and all of that, but the extra strenght compared with a bolter? Why?

And then you have with a ton of Tau weaponry thats much more powerfull than literally the best imperial weaponry and is, again, like... why? Are so useless the Humans that they weren't capable of doing relic weapons in the Dark Age of Technology that can compete with Tau weapons? Lets say I'm one of those "I prefer my Tau tanks than my Tau mechas" Tau players.

Bolters are not very sophisticated, and they're certainly not technological pinnacles of the DAoT or anything. Heck, in 2nd edition Orks could use Bolters. The point of a Bolter is that it can be mass produced and makes a big S4 bang. They're common things on IG vehicles, disposable turrets, and in hive gangs. They're weapons of war for an Imperium that doesn't respect scientific progress, and has forgotten so much of it's past technological prowess.

Tau have flying tanks*, drones, smart missiles, actively races forward with technology and presumably cares far more about individual soldiers than the Imperium does about the Guardsmen. It makes total sense that there could be a personal weapon that outshines the Bolter, it's just a matter of cost and will. Technically the Imperium could give every soldier a Plasma Gun, the only reason they don't is cost.

Plus, a Fire Warrior is worse off than a Marnie is every other area of ability, strictly worse off across the board. Why would it be so bad to give them just one area in which they were at least marginally better?


*Yes, of course the Imperium has flying tanks now but F all that #$%t.

It would be like having Orks equiped with better meele weapons than space marines .

It wouldn't be like that at all. Orks don't have hover tanks and robotic AIs as standardized equipment for millions/(billions?) of soldiers.

The whole damn point/identity of the Tau was that they had sophisticated technology which progressed and was used under a different doctrine. As opposed to the Imperium which was suspicious of advancement, had forgotten a lot of technology, and used what they had in often brutal and backwards-thinking ways.

You are underselling the power of the Imperial technology, Insectum7. Theres a reason why in the "who scifi universe would win" 40k is always on top.

I'll admit, the difference between Imperial and Tau technology is much more clear in the high end scale. Tau lacks the spacecraft power and world-destroyer weaponry the Imperium has, or all the cool relic equipement that stuff like Custodes use. But like, with the exception of Custodes and Assasins, Space Marines use the best equipement the Imperium has. That does not mean every marine uses the best equipement, but a terminator armor, and a relic one like Cathapracti, is more advanced and just better than any suit the Tau have. Even if the rules doesnt reflect that.

And Ork technology have for example the best teleportation and shield technology in the galaxy with maybe the exception of Necrons, so is not like they aren't a technologically advanced race.

But I'll admit this is a little off topic so I'll stop this tangent.

 Insectum7 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Galas wrote:

I would arguee Tacticals right now are much better than Intercessors. They are weaker at CC ok but they are much better at shooting.

How are they "Much better" at shooting? Your standard Tac is 18 compared to an intercessor at 20. They have basically the same gun except the intercessor gets -1 AP. The only thing better is that the tacs can take a special and heavy weapon.

The Special/Heavy/Combi is a huuuge difference in damage output.

Grav Cannon vs. Marines .666 x .666 x .83 x 2 x 4 = 2.9
Five RFing Bolt Rifles vs. Marines .666 x .5 x .5 x 10 = 1.66

The single heavy weapon does nearly twice the work of an entire five man squad. On top of the Grav Cannon, you get three bolt guns and a Combi-Plasma. Four boltguns if you decide to fire the combi-bolter as well, and since to-hit mods cap out at -1, there might be no detriment to firing it.

now change the target to Ork boyz, firewarriors, basically any faction that isn't the designated target for a Grav cannon...aka Space Marines. That grav cannon is 4 shots, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds for 1-2 dead boyz. + 4 RF bolt guns for 8 shots, 5.32 hits, 2.66 wounds and 2.2 dead orkz, total 3-4 dead orkz with the likelihood being closer to 4.

5 intercessors get 10 shots, 6.66 hits, 3.33 wounds and 3-4 dead ork boyz. So not a whole lot of difference. We are talking about a small % difference. compared to losing 5 CC attacks. Also, you lose 6' range forgot about that.

Orks don’t have technology exactly and were not known as Uber tele porters until recently, snotguns aside.

 Galas wrote:
You are underselling the power of the Imperial technology, Insectum7. Theres a reason why in the "who scifi universe would win" 40k is always on top.

I'll admit, the difference between Imperial and Tau technology is much more clear in the high end scale. Tau lacks the spacecraft power and world-destroyer weaponry the Imperium has, or all the cool relic equipement that stuff like Custodes use. But like, with the exception of Custodes and Assasins, Space Marines use the best equipement the Imperium has. That does not mean every marine uses the best equipement, but a terminator armor, and a relic one like Cathapracti, is more advanced and just better than any suit the Tau have. Even if the rules doesnt reflect that.

And Ork technology have for example the best teleportation and shield technology in the galaxy with maybe the exception of Necrons, so is not like they aren't a technologically advanced race.

But I'll admit this is a little off topic so I'll stop this tangent.

Despite having access to some incredible technology, the Imperium still uses tanks that wouldn't look out of place in WW1/2. Whether or not the Imperium and Tau have comparable technology is only half of the game here. The other half is how they choose to use the technology. The Lasgun is impressive technology, sure, but the reason it's chosen over the Bolter for Guardsmen has to do with costs and logistics. The Bolter is chosen for Space Marines instead of the Plasma Gun for some other set of reasons. The Tau developed and deployed the Pulse Rifle to their soldiers for their own reasons. Arguably doctrine plays a larger part than technology in determining who gets what weapons.

From what I understand, the Pulse Rifle is a type of plasma weapon. The Tau simply decided it was in their best interest to develop and deploy a low-grade plasma weapon to their infantry. The Imperium could do the same if it wanted to, they just don't.

JNAProductions wrote:Tau Fire Warriors are, what? 9 points each?

So compare them to 9 Intercessors. 20 Fire Warriors.

If they stand still, giving FW first turn...

Oh, it gets worse than that , because you're also neglecting Bolter Discipline and Doctrines, which give the Intercessors a leg up.

In practice, it's real common for Intercessors to gun down Fire Warriors from 24" before they ever get into Rapid Fire range.

Edit: Apparently I can't read and didn't notice that 20 Fire Warriors were getting 20 shots, or that Bolter Discipline came into effect T2. My bad. Carry on.

 Galas wrote:
The math is nice but I don't think anyone said that Firewarriors were better at shooting than Intercessors. Intercessors are the best troop in the game without a doubt.

Scroll back. There have been several people complaining that Fire Warriors out-shot Marines and feel that this shouldn't be the case.

Galas wrote:You are underselling the power of the Imperial technology, Insectum7. Theres a reason why in the "who scifi universe would win" 40k is always on top.

I think you're overselling the tech level of the Imperials' mass-produced weapons. The Imperium switched from Volkite to bolters (for Marines, mind you) because the latter was cheap and easily manufactured. The surviving weapons that are true, high-tech relics from the DAoT are things like plasma guns, and those are issued in very limited numbers and treated as practically sacred.

Basic autoguns are explicitly comparable to 20th-century firearms (well, as of 2nd they were), with lasguns being advantageous primarily because they're light and supply their own ammunition- the Imperium fights with manufacturing capacity, logistical support and attrition, not individual high-tech. It's completely in-character for the upstart tiny race with negligible manpower and supply lines to put the very best tech they can muster into the hands of every line trooper, while the Imperials jealously guard their equivalents and instead rely on mass-produced equipment that's just good enough to get the job done.

That's been the core thematic difference between the Tau and the Imperium ever since their introduction.

No, I gave them Bolter Discipline and Doctrines. Otherwise, they'd have half (T1) or less than that (T2) of the damage they're actually doing.

 catbarf wrote:

Galas wrote:You are underselling the power of the Imperial technology, Insectum7. Theres a reason why in the "who scifi universe would win" 40k is always on top.

I think you're overselling the tech level of the Imperials' mass-produced weapons. The Imperium switched from Volkite to bolters (for Marines, mind you) because the latter was cheap and easily manufactured. The surviving weapons that are true, high-tech relics from the DAoT are things like plasma guns, and those are issued in very limited numbers and treated as practically sacred.

Basic autoguns are explicitly comparable to 20th-century firearms (well, as of 2nd they were), with lasguns being advantageous primarily because they're light and supply their own ammunition- the Imperium fights with manufacturing capacity, logistical support and attrition, not individual high-tech. It's completely in-character for the upstart tiny race with negligible manpower and supply lines to put the very best tech they can muster into the hands of every line trooper, while the Imperials jealously guard their equivalents and instead rely on mass-produced equipment that's just good enough to get the job done.

That's been the core thematic difference between the Tau and the Imperium ever since their introduction.

But space marines are like, not line troopers? You have a million marines on the galaxy. "THEY WILL THE BEST OF MY SOLDIERS (Until primaris lol). MY ANGELS OF DEATH".

But as I said, with the Imperium out of question, Tau have in many cases better weaponry than Eldar and Necrons. And that makes even less sense. As I said, I'm a Tau player, I like them, the aesthetics, the fluff, etc... I just feel like in general the rules writter are a little too... fanboys about them. It looks like ages ago but theres a reason why rules wise the Tau have been the most hated race everywhere since 5th edition. All that hate was unreserved in fluff terms or aesthetics terms, of course, stupid complaints, but the rules one had in some cases some ground.

 JNAProductions wrote:
No, I gave them Bolter Discipline and Doctrines. Otherwise, they'd have half (T1) or less than that (T2) of the damage they're actually doing.

You're right. I got scrambled on the # of shots and didn't realize you brought in Doctrines on T2. When I've seen Tau and Marines fight it's usually been T2 where most of the killing happens so I figured it'd be relevant from the outset.

Just running the numbers, if the Fire Warriors make it into Rapid Fire range and Tactical Doctrine is active, then 9 Intercessors average 6.67 kills (33%), while 20 Fire Warriors average 2.22 kills (25%). So even then, they still lose. In fact, it looks like even without Doctrines or Bolter Discipline at all, the Tau still lose by a very narrow margin (26% to 25%).

Which is to say that the shooting-specialized Tau infantry lose, on a point-for-point basis, to the all-rounder Marine infantry even before the freebie abilities are taken into account.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Galas wrote:

I would arguee Tacticals right now are much better than Intercessors. They are weaker at CC ok but they are much better at shooting.

How are they "Much better" at shooting? Your standard Tac is 18 compared to an intercessor at 20. They have basically the same gun except the intercessor gets -1 AP. The only thing better is that the tacs can take a special and heavy weapon.

The Special/Heavy/Combi is a huuuge difference in damage output.

Grav Cannon vs. Marines .666 x .666 x .83 x 2 x 4 = 2.9
Five RFing Bolt Rifles vs. Marines .666 x .5 x .5 x 10 = 1.66

The single heavy weapon does nearly twice the work of an entire five man squad. On top of the Grav Cannon, you get three bolt guns and a Combi-Plasma. Four boltguns if you decide to fire the combi-bolter as well, and since to-hit mods cap out at -1, there might be no detriment to firing it.

now change the target to Ork boyz, firewarriors, basically any faction that isn't the designated target for a Grav cannon...aka Space Marines. That grav cannon is 4 shots, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds for 1-2 dead boyz. + 4 RF bolt guns for 8 shots, 5.32 hits, 2.66 wounds and 2.2 dead orkz, total 3-4 dead orkz with the likelihood being closer to 4.

5 intercessors get 10 shots, 6.66 hits, 3.33 wounds and 3-4 dead ork boyz. So not a whole lot of difference. We are talking about a small % difference. compared to losing 5 CC attacks. Also, you lose 6' range forgot about that.

So what? Intercessors are good at killing cheap stuff. Tacticals are also good at killing cheap stuff, and WAY better at killing more expensive stuff. Tacticals can also do both at the same time, using Bolters to kill the cheap stuff and Specials/Heavies to kill expensive stuff.

I think the Grav Cannon has a 30" range now.

 Galas wrote:
But space marines are like, not line troopers? You have a million marines on the galaxy. "THEY WILL THE BEST OF MY SOLDIERS (Until primaris lol). MY ANGELS OF DEATH".

But by Imperial standards, they're still mass-produced. They're constantly creating more Marines. They churn out Predators and Rhinos for their use. Their weapons are standardized across an entire Imperium. They're not barely-understood DAoT relics; they're practical and simple enough for any industrialized planet to produce.

Like, I'm not even making a subjective argument here; the fluff reason for Marines adopting bolters is explicitly that they can be mass-produced and Volkite couldn't. They're the same guns that Imperial Guard are regularly equipped with. Heck, I've got art of a Storm Trooper with what looks exactly like an Astartes bolter.

Compare the way Marines treat bolters with how they treat Terminator armor or plasma guns. It's a pretty big difference.

 Galas wrote:
But as I said, with the Imperium out of question, Tau have in many cases better weaponry than Eldar and Necrons. And that makes even less sense. As I said, I'm a Tau player, I like them, the aesthetics, the fluff, etc... I just feel like in general the rules writter are a little too... fanboys about them. It looks like ages ago but theres a reason why rules wise the Tau have been the most hated race everywhere since 5th edition. All that hate was unreserved in fluff terms or aesthetics terms, of course, stupid complaints, but the rules one had in some cases some ground.

What are they supposed to have, then?

I mean, they've already been downgraded to Guard-level ballistic skill. They have no melee to speak of. They're not especially durable. Fluff-wise, they don't have numbers. If the high-tech weaponry is taken away, what makes them more than just Guard with skimmers? The idea of the gunline that lives or dies on whether they can keep the enemy away from melee has been a core part of their identity since their inception; taking that away just to ensure that the Imperium is always best at everything seems questionable.

 Galas wrote:

But as I said, with the Imperium out of question, Tau have in many cases better weaponry than Eldar and Necrons. And that makes even less sense.

That's because the Necron and Eldar basic weapons took some incredible hits. Shuriken Catapults should be way better than they are.

Necron Gauss Weapons are/were potentially way more interesting, as they were arguably not about destroying things, but about harvesting atoms and life-force to feed their gods. In which case it's not really a "basic weapon".

I'm not saying Tau should not have high tech. Stealth suits for example are pretty a good representation of high tech that is a little more interesting than "bigger and more powerfull guns". Drones are other good way of showing the use of AI and a different take on technology.

 Galas wrote:
I'm not saying Tau should not have high tech.

Just not high-tech guns for "reasons".

The combined way of making war with markerlights to buff the shooting of other units, to using long range missiles is very reminiscent from Battletech for example, and it is interesting both from fluff and from gameplay mechanic, and it looks like "modern" way of fighting, with spotters, etc... theres many ways of representing the Tau being high tech, making their weapons more powerfull in damage because yes is the laziest. And I'll say again, Tau are my biggest army, my first one, and my favourite from a fluff and aesthetic perspective.

I believe Insectium7 you are not arguing in a very honest way in relation with what I'm saying, cutting explanations to reduce them and taking just the introduction, and arguing with native speakers in a lenguage that isn't your native one is hard enough ,so as I said before now I'll stop this tangent about Tau.


To summarize my opinion in the marine debate about their power: I don't dislike Intercessors in theory. I believe many troops should be better than them, like Inmortals, etc... and I believe theres a place for upgrading many units in the game without starting a strat creep or bloat , but making the game much more granular and different in statlines. Many pages ago I said how I would divide the statlines of most infantry of the game and there were many more powerfull than marines ones.

The main point though is that the SM troop choice outperforms everyone elses troops choices. Kind of relevant to game balance dont you think?

Intercessors out shoot boyz and beat them in melee point for point

Same with genestealers and Tau firewarriors.

So the question is do they need a price hike or are those troops going to receive buffs in the near future to compensate for the fact that they are literally sub par now in comparison.

 Galas wrote:
The combined way of making war with markerlights to buff the shooting of other units, to using long range missiles is very reminiscent from Battletech for example, and it is interesting both from fluff and from gameplay mechanic, and it looks like "modern" way of fighting, with spotters, etc... theres many ways of representing the Tau being high tech, making their weapons more powerfull in damage because yes is the laziest. And I'll say again, Tau are my biggest army, my first one, and my favourite from a fluff and aesthetic perspective.

I believe Insectium7 you are not arguing in a very honest way in relation with what I'm saying, cutting explanations to reduce them and taking just the introduction, and arguing with native speakers in a lenguage that isn't your native one is hard enough ,so as I said before now I'll stop this tangent about Tau.

Well I apologize for being difficult but I can't get behind the idea that Tau can't have a basic weapon that's more powerful than a bolter. It makes their infantry interesting, and in the past has made facing off against Tau line infantry interesting because there was an intrinsic threat to them. As catbarf says, without the Pulse Rifle Fire Warriors would just sorta become Guardsmen, or maybe lousy Dire Avengers. The Pulse Rifle gives the unit, and the faction, a distinctness in identity which I'd prefer not to lose.

And Space Marines just being better than everybody at everything is really, really, boring and stupid.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The combined way of making war with markerlights to buff the shooting of other units, to using long range missiles is very reminiscent from Battletech for example, and it is interesting both from fluff and from gameplay mechanic, and it looks like "modern" way of fighting, with spotters, etc... theres many ways of representing the Tau being high tech, making their weapons more powerfull in damage because yes is the laziest. And I'll say again, Tau are my biggest army, my first one, and my favourite from a fluff and aesthetic perspective.

I believe Insectium7 you are not arguing in a very honest way in relation with what I'm saying, cutting explanations to reduce them and taking just the introduction, and arguing with native speakers in a lenguage that isn't your native one is hard enough ,so as I said before now I'll stop this tangent about Tau.

Well I apologize for being difficult but I can't get behind the idea that Tau can't have a basic weapon that's more powerful than a bolter. It makes their infantry interesting, and in the past has made facing off against Tau line infantry interesting because there was an intrinsic threat to them. As catbarf says, without the Pulse Rifle Fire Warriors would just sorta become Guardsmen, or maybe lousy Dire Avengers. The Pulse Rifle gives the unit, and the faction, a distinctness in identity which I'd prefer not to lose.

And Space Marines just being better than everybody at everything is really, really, boring and stupid.

I mean with FP0 and with the new wound tables is not like the Pulse Rifle is that deadly weapon it used to be, so is not really relevant and I was not like advocating for it to be nerfed. I have like 70 fire warriors so yeah I love to use them like red coats in lines of infantry advancing and shooting anything that gets in front of them. Fire Warriors where what sold me into tau, that and Piranhas (I have 6-7 of those and I really hate having multiples of something so that is relevant). What I said was less about marines and more about my friend imperial guardsmen, playing Tau agaisnt them always felt dirty because until 8th they were basically Imperial Guard but better. But I really disagree about the notion than the high-tech and modern feel to Tau is achieved by having Weapons with more strenght and not with all the others things I mentioned.




Personally my preference would be for the equilibrium between low cost troops like boyz, kabalites, Firewarriors and Intercessors to be achieved with removing some of the bloat rules space marines have and point costs. And the balance between Intercessors and more elite troops like inmortals, Aspect Warriors, etc... should be achieved by stat upgrades to those combined with repointing and the , as I said, nerf to marine bonuses.

 Galas wrote:
What I said was less about marines and more about my friend imperial guardsmen, playing Tau agaisnt them always felt dirty because until 8th they were basically Imperial Guard but better.

Isn't that the point? I mean, on the one side you have a totalitarian war machine that throws expendable troops into the meat grinder armed with just the most cost-efficient equipment. And on the other, you have soldiers individually treated as valuable, equipped with the best technology their race can muster.

Then you bring in units like Scions, and now they've got similar protection, and while their main weapons aren't quite as powerful they bring ancient high-technology relics into the mix and sheer experience that the naive Tau lack.

And in all cases, those technological upstarts are just one successful bayonet charge away from finding themselves in hand-to-hand, where suddenly those primitive, expendable conscripts are their equals.

I play Guard and I like the Tau out-shooting me- while costing half again as much. It means we use our infantry for very different purposes; theirs are actual combatants arranged as line troopers, mine are meatshields for the heavy weapons that do the real work. They have mobility, range, and precision high-lethality, while I have sledgehammer brutality and crushing resilience. Having high-power shooting is an essential part of that equation.

I really enjoyed that they managed to bring another humanoid race into the game that feels as uniquely different from the human factions as the Eldar or Orks do. I think it would be a shame for them to lose any part of what makes them different. I mean, you already have a lower-tech alien race fighting alongside them- that's the Kroot.

 catbarf wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
No, I gave them Bolter Discipline and Doctrines. Otherwise, they'd have half (T1) or less than that (T2) of the damage they're actually doing.

You're right. I got scrambled on the # of shots and didn't realize you brought in Doctrines on T2. When I've seen Tau and Marines fight it's usually been T2 where most of the killing happens so I figured it'd be relevant from the outset.

Just running the numbers, if the Fire Warriors make it into Rapid Fire range and Tactical Doctrine is active, then 9 Intercessors average 6.67 kills (33%), while 20 Fire Warriors average 2.22 kills (25%). So even then, they still lose. In fact, it looks like even without Doctrines or Bolter Discipline at all, the Tau still lose by a very narrow margin (26% to 25%).

Which is to say that the shooting-specialized Tau infantry lose, on a point-for-point basis, to the all-rounder Marine infantry even before the freebie abilities are taken into account.

Hey but chapter master got moved to one core unit per turn and costs pts ratehr than CP!!!! That evens it out surely!

I wasn't exactly talking from a "feeling" perspective and more of a balance one. Hammerheads popping leman russes like it was nothing and then infantry being mulched by my infantry always felt a little oppresive, but that was editions ago so it has no relevance to today. But I'll repeat, theres much more reasons why Tau feel good to play, and different than Imperial Guard being both "human" like shooting armies , I believe you two are leaning a little too hard in the basic weapon having +1 or -1 point of strenght. That kind of minutiate is not really that relevant. Is like that guy that said that if "THE OLD WORLD" is literally fantasy but with movement trays to use round AoS bases in square formations it would absolutely change the feeling of the game because old 20mm square based miniatures use now 25mm round ones.

I really enjoyed playing Tau in 8th with the Farsight suplement of CA. Movile, short ranged shooting armies, high risk high reward are my favourite, extremely tactical. Breachers are probably my favourite troop in the game.

SemperMortis wrote:
The main point though is that the SM troop choice outperforms everyone elses troops choices. Kind of relevant to game balance dont you think?

Intercessors out shoot boyz and beat them in melee point for point

Same with genestealers and Tau firewarriors.

So the question is do they need a price hike or are those troops going to receive buffs in the near future to compensate for the fact that they are literally sub par now in comparison.

Based on the minor and precisely targeted nerfs in the codex, I suspect the latter. Which is going to be an extremely annoying wait.

My understanding, or at least my hope based on what we've seen so far, is that 9th edition is overall supposed to have a substantially higher overall level of power than 8th. The weapon upgrades suggest this, as does the improvement in the Necron codex (Even if this codex isn't as good as the Marine one).

The problem in many ways stems from the fact that SM 2.0 was designed with 9th edition codex strength in mind; by comparison to the others, it contains horsebuggering levels of power. Everyone else (With the possible exception of SoB, which released later) has been stuck in 8th edition levels of power until Necrons just now. SM 9th fixed an edge unit or two, smoothed out a few problems, then added a couple of new ones; but overall their level of power has not really dropped a full order of magnitude since SM 2.0, so I presume this to be the intended default state of 9th edition. We are not in a fundamentally place from the past year where the Marines are just ahead of nearly all others, and that has not changed, so everyone else will just have to be buffed to compensate.

Supposedly they have all the books playtested; supposedly one of these playtesters is capable of enough mathhammer to be minimally aware that, as others seem to have demonstrated, Tau Firewarriors are incapable of outshooting an Intercessor, and Daemonettes without guns can't outdo them in melee, and would rewrite rules to fix this. If GW is capable of that much, then the problem is that these apparently playtested books have not been released in any form. The clinging to an old, staggered physical print model for what is either stubbornness or greed is making the game balance incredibly awkward, like if you underwent puberty by having every body part in turn reach adult size before the next one started growing. There is no reason we should have to "wait and see."

My trust in GW's "Playtesting" is the same amount of trust I would place on a Cruise Ship Named Titanic reaching its intended destination.

I hate to bring it back up, but one of these "Playtesters" is the renowned Reece who is famous for being wrong...all the damn time.

SemperMortis wrote:
My trust in GW's "Playtesting" is the same amount of trust I would place on a Cruise Ship Named Titanic reaching its intended destination.

I hate to bring it back up, but one of these "Playtesters" is the renowned Reece who is famous for being wrong...all the damn time.

Not gonna argue that; it's not much. But it's basically all we've got.

 CEO Kasen wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
My trust in GW's "Playtesting" is the same amount of trust I would place on a Cruise Ship Named Titanic reaching its intended destination.

I hate to bring it back up, but one of these "Playtesters" is the renowned Reece who is famous for being wrong...all the damn time.

Not gonna argue that; it's not much. But it's basically all we've got.

No it's fething not.

I don't understand this stockholm syndrome bull that people have with GW. You have your dollars and your time. Stop payng GW for a subpar product, take your plastic toys and your friends, and go play a different rule set with better rules. You don't owe GW gak and you absolutely do not have to eat their scraps of a crap product.

 Lance845 wrote:

 CEO Kasen wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
My trust in GW's "Playtesting" is the same amount of trust I would place on a Cruise Ship Named Titanic reaching its intended destination.

I hate to bring it back up, but one of these "Playtesters" is the renowned Reece who is famous for being wrong...all the damn time.

Not gonna argue that; it's not much. But it's basically all we've got.

No it's fething not.

I don't understand this stockholm syndrome bull that people have with GW. You have your dollars and your time. Stop payng GW for a subpar product, take your plastic toys and your friends, and go play a different rule set with better rules. You don't owe GW gak and you absolutely do not have to eat their scraps of a crap product.

Oh, don't misunderstand me, I'm not giving them a goddamn goatlicking cent at the moment. I'm with you on this. I'm 3D printing minis I've customized in Blender and I'm not paying for those overpriced pieces of colorful, rapidly errata'ed shitpaper they call codexes. But in terms of hoping for GW to release rules that aren't crap, given that the rules are largely already written, then the only chain of logic that leads to the game eventually balancing out in an official capacity in the forseeable future is if all the codexes are substantially increased in power to match the spectrum of SM 9th.

 Lance845 wrote:

 CEO Kasen wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
My trust in GW's "Playtesting" is the same amount of trust I would place on a Cruise Ship Named Titanic reaching its intended destination.

I hate to bring it back up, but one of these "Playtesters" is the renowned Reece who is famous for being wrong...all the damn time.

Not gonna argue that; it's not much. But it's basically all we've got.

No it's fething not.

I don't understand this stockholm syndrome bull that people have with GW. You have your dollars and your time. Stop payng GW for a subpar product, take your plastic toys and your friends, and go play a different rule set with better rules. You don't owe GW gak and you absolutely do not have to eat their scraps of a crap product.

But what if I enjoy the game, have fun with it, and then go with my group of friends to big tournaments where everybody plays the same game? And , at the same time, I play other rulesets that are more balanced and I also like?

Is being critical with the game incompatible with having reasonable expectations about what it is and what isnt and having fun with it?
I'm sorry but when you, and many like you, reach the point of reducing all the reasons of playing GW games to emotional manipulation, attacking the people that enjoys playing those games, you lose all kind of moral ground you could claim.