Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So.. i just wanted to be 100% clear since its pretty game changing. Ive only had one 9th edition game so bear with me.

Look out sir, means that bigger characters like Ghazzy and morty, wont be able to hide behind the lines anymore? since they have more than 9hp they can thus still get targeted by ranged attacks?

Is there any real way to sort of hide them from being attacked that im unaware of that doesnt involve hiding behind a ruin?

Beardedragon wrote:
So.. i just wanted to be 100% clear since its pretty game changing. Ive only had one 9th edition game so bear with me.

Look out sir, means that bigger characters like Ghazzy and morty, wont be able to hide behind the lines anymore? since they have more than 9hp they can thus still get targeted by ranged attacks?

Is there any real way to sort of hide them from being attacked that im unaware of that doesnt involve hiding behind a ruin?

Once the Codecs come out, they may get a bodyguard unit that would let them avoid ranged attacks.

Deathshroud for Mortarion, and... Probably nothing, for Ghaz. But his 4 wound a phase cap is pretty good defense too.

Currently, though, no. Be unseen or eat bullets.

Characters with >9 wounds have been targetable since the start of 8th. Ghaz can only take 4 wounds per phase so that's at least 3 shooting phases, and he can be healed with the Medi Squig strat. Mortarion can be protected with Deathshroud Terminators.

ryuken87 wrote:
Characters with >9 wounds have been targetable since the start of 8th. Ghaz can only take 4 wounds per phase so that's at least 3 shooting phases, and he can be healed with the Medi Squig strat. Mortarion can be protected with Deathshroud Terminators.

Note that the Medi-Squig requires a Goff Painboy, which might clash with your subfaction.

But yeah, his rules make him (in general) more durable than Mortarion.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
So.. i just wanted to be 100% clear since its pretty game changing. Ive only had one 9th edition game so bear with me.

Look out sir, means that bigger characters like Ghazzy and morty, wont be able to hide behind the lines anymore? since they have more than 9hp they can thus still get targeted by ranged attacks?

Is there any real way to sort of hide them from being attacked that im unaware of that doesnt involve hiding behind a ruin?

Once the Codecs come out, they may get a bodyguard unit that would let them avoid ranged attacks.

Deathshroud for Mortarion, and... Probably nothing, for Ghaz. But his 4 wound a phase cap is pretty good defense too.

Currently, though, no. Be unseen or eat bullets.

thanks buddy. thats how i understood it too i just have a game tomorrow and i didnt want to lose the game because i was being a grot not knowing the rules properly. In my only 9th edition game Ghaz was not attacked at all thats why i was confused. at least he wasnt attacked by ranged attacks, so i guess my opponent didnt know about the rule either and just thought: hey you cant attack characters.

that just got me confused when i read Look out sir.

S'all good. New edition, everything is confusing, stuff is changing...

But glad to be of help!

 JNAProductions wrote:

ryuken87 wrote:
Characters with >9 wounds have been targetable since the start of 8th. Ghaz can only take 4 wounds per phase so that's at least 3 shooting phases, and he can be healed with the Medi Squig strat. Mortarion can be protected with Deathshroud Terminators.

Note that the Medi-Squig requires a Goff Painboy, which might clash with your subfaction.

But yeah, his rules make him (in general) more durable than Mortarion.

well i run Ghazzy in a Goff group so its all good. thanks bud


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ryuken87 wrote:
Characters with >9 wounds have been targetable since the start of 8th. Ghaz can only take 4 wounds per phase so that's at least 3 shooting phases, and he can be healed with the Medi Squig strat. Mortarion can be protected with Deathshroud Terminators.

ah.. didnt know. I only tried Ghaz for the first time in a 9th edition game, never tried him in an 8th edition game, and i never had any characters with more than 9hp before so this was never a thing i had to worry about.
Maybe my oponent not attacking Ghazzy doing the shooting phase knew he could attack him but just chose not to? i dunno.

ryuken87 wrote:
Mortarion can be protected with Deathshroud Terminators.

On paper yes, but keeping up with him is the problem.

 Grimtuff wrote:

ryuken87 wrote:
Mortarion can be protected with Deathshroud Terminators.

On paper yes, but keeping up with him is the problem.

In can have him start next to the deathshrouds with both touching your deployment zone. The death shrouds advance 5-8" and project their body guard aura another 3" forwards. Mortarion moves 12" and his base is roughly 4" in diameter, so you can usually keep him in range for one movement phase. Afterwards they are either dead or Moration is in combat anyways.

The issue is that you are putting even more eggs in one basket and playing Mortarion already heavily limits what else you can bring to the table, so wasting even more points on making him "work" tends to result in an even worse army.

The other issue is that 6-12 additional wounds are not that much for the points you pay, but this might change when they go to 3 wounds per model. In any case, a landraider with DR and 5++ full of deathshroud is vastly more fun to play than the big guy himself.

Uncle Morty will probably have "Make the other player vomit resilient" that gives him a FNP save that makes the other player vomit.

He might get a cloud of flies that makes him -1 to hit for all we know.

Thrakka might get something like a retinue ability that lets him take a medic regardless of clan affiliation without causing problems "Becuz da boss sez so!"

There are other ways to keep a supercharacter alive than just making it impossible for someone to shoot at him. I'd encourage GW to experiment with those for variety. I just wish they'd playtest better.

Morty'll proably have the same "only X dmg per phase" of ghaz and silent king, I suspect GW is going to be making that a standard thing for high Wound count characters

There are a couple of things you can do to mitigate ranged attacks for the big guys. One - you should already be using a decent amount of Obscuring terrain, make sure you're using it.
Two - you could consider putting them into Strategic Reserves, and focus on taking down the threats that could punish them as much as you can before bringing them on. This may also have the neat side-effect of psyching your opponent out and keeping their units away from the edges, funnelling them into the middle of the table as a result.

Mortarion can't be obscured though. He dies just as fast in 9th as he did in 8th.

Putting 500 points into reserves until turn 3 also tends to backfire. Putting 40 poxwalkers (320 points) in reserves also creates the same effect.

 Jidmah wrote:
Mortarion can't be obscured though. He dies just as fast in 9th as he did in 8th.

Putting 500 points into reserves until turn 3 also tends to backfire. Putting 40 poxwalkers (320 points) in reserves also creates the same effect.

Fair points. It's not impossible to obscure Morty - bear in mind that Obscuring works at effectively infinite height - but his wings do make it very difficult.
While poxwalkers might well have the same effect, the question here isn't "what's good as a reserve threat", it's "how do I get Morty/Ghaz to survive long enough to be useful". Reserves is an answer - the threat aspect is just a nice bonus when it happens, not the reason for doing it.

He is a titan. The infinite height thing does not apply to him, you have to cover him by true Los.

Both are wrong

He has 18 wounds so he doesn't benefit from obscuring or dense terrain ever because arbitrary cap is arbitrary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Super Ready wrote:
"how do I get Morty/Ghaz to survive long enough to be useful". Reserves is an answer - the threat aspect is just a nice bonus when it happens, not the reason for doing it.

Mortarion is pretty much a melee only threat. If you fail your charge after coming in from reserves whose chances DG cannot improve beyond a command re-roll, Mortarion will die in one turn just a if he had started the game on the board.

Right now he is nothing but a distraction carnifex whose efficiency solely depends on how lucky your rolls for his 4++ saves are. During all of 8th I had four games when he didn't die turn one, in many games even before moving once.
I really hope the new codex makes him more interesting - wounds lost capped at 6 would very much archive that. It's also unlikely to have a heavy impact on competitive since warptime will very likely become CORE only.

Mortarion's wound characteristic notwithstanding but do you not have to see a part of a model's base from behind an obscuring feature's edge to be able to see said model? If a model's base is completely hidden (obscured) you can't target that model even if it has massive wings visible. Or do I have this all wrong?

 Jidmah wrote:
Both are wrong
He has 18 wounds so he doesn't benefit from obscuring or dense terrain ever because arbitrary cap is arbitrary.

Ah, nuts. That's a good point, I forgot about that. The idea is that you use that first couple of turns to take out or tie up major threats, so that when you bring him on, you don't have that immediate wave of death headed his way. I do appreciate that you're trying to do this with probably less points on the board, and while still trying to take objectives, but... let's not forget that 18 Wounds when you have high Toughness, an Invulnerable save and regenerating Wounds in future turns counts for a lot.

 Weazel wrote:
Mortarion's wound characteristic notwithstanding but do you not have to see a part of a model's base from behind an obscuring feature's edge to be able to see said model? If a model's base is completely hidden (obscured) you can't target that model even if it has massive wings visible. Or do I have this all wrong?

You don't target by the base - it's by any part of the model. So that includes wings, antennae, the tip of a wisp of smoke coming off of some ridiculously swinging censer...

 Weazel wrote:
Mortarion's wound characteristic notwithstanding but do you not have to see a part of a model's base from behind an obscuring feature's edge to be able to see said model? If a model's base is completely hidden (obscured) you can't target that model even if it has massive wings visible. Or do I have this all wrong?

Pretty sure the entire model has to be out of LOS even the tip of the radio antenna. Otherwise infantry up next to a low wall would be out of LOS.

 Weazel wrote:
Mortarion's wound characteristic notwithstanding but do you not have to see a part of a model's base from behind an obscuring feature's edge to be able to see said model? If a model's base is completely hidden (obscured) you can't target that model even if it has massive wings visible. Or do I have this all wrong?

You are thinking kill team. In 9th, if any part of a model with 18 or more wounds is visible - including the wings - he can be shot without any protection whatsoever, no matter how many terrain pieces of any kind are in between.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Super Ready wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Both are wrong
He has 18 wounds so he doesn't benefit from obscuring or dense terrain ever because arbitrary cap is arbitrary.

Ah, nuts. That's a good point, I forgot about that. The idea is that you use that first couple of turns to take out or tie up major threats, so that when you bring him on, you don't have that immediate wave of death headed his way. I do appreciate that you're trying to do this with probably less points on the board, and while still trying to take objectives,

Context is important here. DG do not have many units with high damage output or long range, most units are only worth their points because they stick around almost all game and are still shooting when other armies are already burning wrecks. DG also are expensive, so when you bring Mortarion, three units of troops and a pair of HQs you are usually left with ~900 points of very durable, but unreliable and/or short-ranged shooting.
MBH with a multip-meltas and a missile launcher are probably the most powerful shooting unit in the codex right now.

but... let's not forget that 18 Wounds when you have high Toughness, an Invulnerable save and regenerating Wounds in future turns counts for a lot.

The only way to regain wounds is by having a chaos daemon of nurgle cast a power on him.
18 3+/4++/5+++ T7 wounds with -1 to hit sound like a lot until you realize you are paying 490 points for them. Units with high damage output have no problems doing that much damage in one turn, and he doesn't have any special protection vs melee. Even ignoring ridiculous things like eradicators, a pair of anti-tank units can usually bring him low enough for a melee unit or beatstick character to finish him off.

Speaking as a new first time monolith owner believe me I'm just all broken up you poor ork, chaos and imperial players have important characters you can't shield from attack and just have to rely on inv. saves to keep alive.

A monolith is more likely to have an impact on the game than Mortarion though - because it can both deep strike and has a non-trivial amount of shooting.

Beardedragon wrote:

Maybe my oponent not attacking Ghazzy doing the shooting phase knew he could attack him but just chose not to? i dunno.

Well with 4W cap if he doesnt' have ways to cause multiple ways to cause damage and especially if you have painboy nearby it just ain't worth it. Many armies can pretty much ignore ghaz anyway feeding him cheap units(there aren't expensive units or they are too well screened anyway) making ghaz not be able to kill enough to make it worthwhile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
Mortarion can't be obscured though. He dies just as fast in 9th as he did in 8th.

Putting 500 points into reserves until turn 3 also tends to backfire. Putting 40 poxwalkers (320 points) in reserves also creates the same effect.

Well there's of course the option of hiding him behind terrain big enough. How much bigger he is than knight? Good board has at least one terrain piece to block LOS to knight if not 2 so he needs to be bigger than knight to not have any way to hide for at least a turn.

BrianDavion wrote:
Morty'll proably have the same "only X dmg per phase" of ghaz and silent king, I suspect GW is going to be making that a standard thing for high Wound count characters

Unlikely.

You can one-shot the Silent King without a problem. He doesn't have that rule.

And a Ghaz-style rule would be pretty obnoxious on something with as many wounds as Mortarion and a FNP. If he get's it, he'd probably have to come down to the 9-12 wound range of C'tan / Ghaz and lose his FNP.

Also, GW is adding new rules that ignore those new "eternal warrior"-style rules, starting with the Nightbringer, who can one-shot Ghaz, other C'Tan, etc..

tneva82 wrote:
Well there's of course the option of hiding him behind terrain big enough. How much bigger he is than knight? Good board has at least one terrain piece to block LOS to knight if not 2 so he needs to be bigger than knight to not have any way to hide for at least a turn.

He has a similar height as a regular knight, but wider and the tips of the wings are much easier to see. I also believe we had this discussion multiple times already, your area just has unnatural amounts of huge LOS blocking terrain pieces.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Morty'll proably have the same "only X dmg per phase" of ghaz and silent king, I suspect GW is going to be making that a standard thing for high Wound count characters

Unlikely.

You can one-shot the Silent King without a problem. He doesn't have that rule.

And a Ghaz-style rule would be pretty obnoxious on something with as many wounds as Mortarion and a FNP. If he get's it, he'd probably have to come down to the 9-12 wound range of C'tan / Ghaz and lose his FNP.

Also, GW is adding new rules that ignore those new "eternal warrior"-style rules, starting with the Nightbringer, who can one-shot Ghaz, other C'Tan, etc..

The silent king has more wounds, can hide out of LoS and is not limited to melee range to deal damage. They really don't compare well at all.
Note that exalted bloodthirsters also can have this "eternal warrior" rule (I like that name for it) and are hardly causing problems.