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In the Pre-game Sequence, Step 13 'Pre-game Abilities' is of course when you set the pattern that they will become active, but when does the first Command Protocol become active, is it that same step or one later?

This is trying to figure out if the Protocols that extend aura range or the protocol that gives 1" to the movement characteristic, will mix with the Aggressively Expansionist pre-game Normal move up to 6" bonus that I think also happens in Step 13.

Also, does the Normal Move given by the Aggressively Expansionist Trait, negate the protocol that gives you Light Cover if you have not Normal moved, Advanced, or Fellback in the battle round? I do not think it does, as it is a Pre-Battle Round movement.

Since Aggressively Expansionist happens "At the start of the first battle round" rather than "before the battle" and Command Protocols apply in "Battle Round 1", I would say that that the Protocol of the Sudden Storm does apply.

Since it happens "At the start of the first battle round", the move does occur within a battle round and thus will negate the Protocol of the Eternal Guardian, Directive 1. So if you're going second and use Aggressively Expansionist to move, you won't get cover that battle round, but can do so in subsequent battle rounds.

BCB, you need to re-read Command Protocols - I actually think we have a sequencing conflict here, but, I don't think that conflict actually makes any difference.
First, I think it'll help to get the exact rules text in...

Relentlessly Expansionist:

At the start of the first battle round, before the first turn, units with this code can make a Normal Move of up to 6″.

Command Protocols:

At the start of each battle round, if any Noble units from your army are on the battlefield, the command protocol that you assigned to that battle round becomes active for your army until the end of that battle round."

So both rules apply at the start of the battle round - immediately, we have a timing conflict that would usually be resolved with sequencing.
However, note this phrasing from the former in particular:
"At the start of the first battle round, before the first turn"
That tells us there is a window at the start of the battle round where these rules take place, while it's actually neither player's turn - so you can't use sequencing to determine the order, neither player gets to choose.

Strict RAW, I reckon you'd have to roll off for it. However, as I say I don't think this matters for either protocol you've mentioned.
Relentlessly Expansionist doesn't draw on your Movement characteristic at all, it just tells you to make a Normal Move up to 6". So units that normally move less than 6", can still move the full 6" - meanwhile the 1" bonus from Protocol of the Sudden Storm doesn't give you any permission to break that 6".
Meanwhile, BCB is still correct on Protocol of the Eternal Guardian in that the move still takes place within the battle round. So you've still broken the requirement for getting the cover bonus that turn, even if you didn't have the Protocol when you made that move.

While that’s a nice philosophical question, I don’t see the relevance to the Protocol of the Eternal Guardian? All that cares about is whether you made a Normal Move this round or not, and Relentlessly Expansionist explicitly tells you to do that within the Battle Round. Turns are not mentioned.
So it doesn’t matter which applies first since they will both be in-place by the time it becomes relevant which is your opponent shooting at you.

Yeah, while I already realised it doesn't matter for these protocols - I mentioned it in case it causes problems with any others.

How would Aggressively Expansionist work with the Deceivers Grand Illusion? Which would happen fist as they are both before combat?

Do we have a rule about simultaneous effects?
I’d say choose which one happens first, resolve it completely, then do the other.

Whatever happens, you don’t get to mix and match moving some units, redeploying others, then moving them and/or more units you haven’t got to yet.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Do we have a rule about simultaneous effects?
I’d say choose which one happens first, resolve it completely, then do the other.

We do - it's called sequencing, which is why I called it that specific term in my post before - and that's exactly what happens, someone chooses.
Page 201 in the Core book, page 6 in the free PDF rules.
"While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – e.g. ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. When this happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved."

So in this case, you have to roll-off for it - but if you choose to perform Grand Illusion first then yes, you could redeploy a unit and then move it a further 6".
That means technically you could start the game with a unit only 6" away - but that's a massive risk considering you have no idea if you have first turn or not and you're not allowed to charge.
I also would not be surprised if this gets FAQ'ed to stop you from pulling this off.

I believe both of these abilities would happen in the Resolve Pre Battle Abelites Phase (13) which happens after rolling to see who goes first (12). So not knowing turn order should not be an issue.


I am returning to 40k after not playing for about 5 years and starting with a new army. I have the 9th ed mini rule book (the 180ish page one from the box set) but can't find where it says you can not charge on the 1st turn.

 Xanowrath wrote:
I believe both of these abilities would happen in the Resolve Pre Battle Abelites Phase (13) which happens after rolling to see who goes first (12). So not knowing turn order should not be an issue.

Ooh, very good point - got my order wrong there. That makes it a bit safer.

I am returning to 40k after not playing for about 5 years and starting with a new army. I have the 9th ed mini rule book (the 180ish page one from the box set) but can't find where it says you can not charge on the 1st turn.

It's not a blanket rule - there's nothing specifically stating you can't charge on the first turn overall - but the rules bend towards discouraging it. For starters, the Grand Deceiver ability outright states that if you use it, you can't charge on the first turn.
Other abilities that allow you to set up your models in strange ways, usually say that you must stay further than 9" away from enemy models - meaning that if you want a first turn charge, you're going to have to roll high to get it.

Can Grand illusion allow you to put a unit such as Deathmarks in Dimensional Translocation? Or do they have to walk on from strategical reserves?

 Super Ready wrote:

It's not a blanket rule - there's nothing specifically stating you can't charge on the first turn overall - but the rules bend towards discouraging it. For starters, the Grand Deceiver ability outright states that if you use it, you can't charge on the first turn.

What ? Where does it say you cant charge on the first turn ?

Grand Illusion
At the start of the first battle round, you can select up to three friendly NECRONS units. Remove those units from the battlefield, then set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is wholly within your deployment zone. If the mission you are playing uses the Strategic Reserves rules, you can place any of those units into Strategic Reserves instead.

 CKO wrote:
Can Grand illusion allow you to put a unit such as Deathmarks in Dimensional Translocation? Or do they have to walk on from strategical reserves?

No. But you can use aetheric interception on units in strategic reserves.

 p5freak wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

It's not a blanket rule - there's nothing specifically stating you can't charge on the first turn overall - but the rules bend towards discouraging it. For starters, the Grand Deceiver ability outright states that if you use it, you can't charge on the first turn.

What ? Where does it say you cant charge on the first turn ?
Grand Illusion
At the start of the first battle round, you can select up to three friendly NECRONS units. Remove those units from the battlefield, then set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is wholly within your deployment zone. If the mission you are playing uses the Strategic Reserves rules, you can place any of those units into Strategic Reserves instead.

I may be looking at the version from the 8th ed Codex's datasheet. But if that's how it's changed? That's a massive difference in how it works. Your wording states the units now have to be wholly within your deployment zone still - that effectively kills any real chances of a first turn charge.
Previously it was anywhere on the battlefield but more than 12" from enemy units.

 Super Ready wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

It's not a blanket rule - there's nothing specifically stating you can't charge on the first turn overall - but the rules bend towards discouraging it. For starters, the Grand Deceiver ability outright states that if you use it, you can't charge on the first turn.

What ? Where does it say you cant charge on the first turn ?
Grand Illusion
At the start of the first battle round, you can select up to three friendly NECRONS units. Remove those units from the battlefield, then set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is wholly within your deployment zone. If the mission you are playing uses the Strategic Reserves rules, you can place any of those units into Strategic Reserves instead.

I may be looking at the version from the 8th ed Codex's datasheet. But if that's how it's changed? That's a massive difference in how it works. Your wording states the units now have to be wholly within your deployment zone still - that effectively kills any real chances of a first turn charge.
Previously it was anywhere on the battlefield but more than 12" from enemy units.

Next time please read the actual rules before engaging in a rules discussion There are units which can deploy anywhere on the battlefield, more than 9" away from enemy models and deployment zone. Those are easy charge targets.

 p5freak wrote:
Next time please read the actual rules before engaging in a rules discussion There are units which can deploy anywhere on the battlefield, more than 9" away from enemy models and deployment zone. Those are easy charge targets.

Yeah, my bad. Full disclosure - I don't have the new Codex, I thought I'd, uhhhhh... "found" the right datasheet online but sadly it wasn't immediately obvious to me that it was from the old book.
"More than 9" away" is still a risk though if you don't get first turn, depending on what that unit is. It's also still a very big difference between being able to charge that one unit first turn, that your opponent has chosen to place there - and being able to charge a variety of units from deep-strike with a lucky roll.

 p5freak wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

It's not a blanket rule - there's nothing specifically stating you can't charge on the first turn overall - but the rules bend towards discouraging it. For starters, the Grand Deceiver ability outright states that if you use it, you can't charge on the first turn.

What ? Where does it say you cant charge on the first turn ?
Grand Illusion
At the start of the first battle round, you can select up to three friendly NECRONS units. Remove those units from the battlefield, then set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is wholly within your deployment zone. If the mission you are playing uses the Strategic Reserves rules, you can place any of those units into Strategic Reserves instead.

I may be looking at the version from the 8th ed Codex's datasheet. But if that's how it's changed? That's a massive difference in how it works. Your wording states the units now have to be wholly within your deployment zone still - that effectively kills any real chances of a first turn charge.
Previously it was anywhere on the battlefield but more than 12" from enemy units.

Next time please read the actual rules before engaging in a rules discussion There are units which can deploy anywhere on the battlefield, more than 9" away from enemy models and deployment zone. Those are easy charge targets.

Wouldn't "then set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is wholly within your deployment zone." keep them from being deployed just anywhere on the battlefield? That kind of discredits your "easy charge targets" argument if you're stuck within your deployment zone.

Super Ready wrote:Yeah, my bad. Full disclosure - I don't have the new Codex, I thought I'd, uhhhhh... "found" the right datasheet online but sadly it wasn't immediately obvious to me that it was from the old book.
"More than 9" away" is still a risk though if you don't get first turn, depending on what that unit is. It's also still a very big difference between being able to charge that one unit first turn, that your opponent has chosen to place there - and being able to charge a variety of units from deep-strike with a lucky roll.

Again, read the rules before....... In matched play you roll off who has first turn in step 12 (pg. 282), in step 13 you resolve pre-battle abilities, and strats which are used before the battle. So you already know whether you have first turn, or not, before you redeploy your units with grand illusion.

doctortom wrote:
Wouldn't "then set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is wholly within your deployment zone." keep them from being deployed just anywhere on the battlefield? That kind of discredits your "easy charge targets" argument if you're stuck within your deployment zone.

I was talking about enemy units like infiltrators, nurglings, etc. If those are 9" away from your deployment zone, and you choose to redeploy your grand illusion units 9" away from them, wholly in your deployment zone, and you move them 6" before the start of the first battle round, you have an easy 3'" charge.

 p5freak wrote:

doctortom wrote:
Wouldn't "then set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is wholly within your deployment zone." keep them from being deployed just anywhere on the battlefield? That kind of discredits your "easy charge targets" argument if you're stuck within your deployment zone.

I was talking about enemy units like infiltrators, nurglings, etc. If those are 9" away from your deployment zone, and you choose to redeploy your grand illusion units 9" away from them, wholly in your deployment zone, and you move them 6" before the start of the first battle round, you have an easy 3'" charge.

If those are 9" away from the enemy deployment zone when Grand Illusion could be used then they probably already have problems with getting charged, if only by fast units.