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Locally we've had discussion about implementing the additional wound for heretics at the same time as the change to weapon stats.
With that in mind, If you were to do this what would be some considerations?

A few we've discussed:
-A set percentage increase across the board.
-Comparison to the new SM dex.
-Cult legions getting the same treatment.
-At what point would we round fractions up/down.
-What units would not get the treatment.

Y'know, I wondered whether anyone would do this in the meantime anyway. Makes a lot of sense to me to house rule it while waiting for Codex updates.
...I would be very wary of giving Plague Marines the boost without a higher-than-everyone-else points bump. The extra Wound does a lot more for them than other units.

 Super Ready wrote:
Y'know, I wondered whether anyone would do this in the meantime anyway. Makes a lot of sense to me to house rule it while waiting for Codex updates.
...I would be very wary of giving Plague Marines the boost without a higher-than-everyone-else points bump. The extra Wound does a lot more for them than other units.

Given that Marines of all stripes can easily get a 6+++...

But, just in general, err on the side of increasing points by too much, rather than too little.

I'd been thinking about this myself; playing CSM against LSM would not feel good as things stand.

I think the cost differential jump should be the same as the one LSM got for Firstborn; In a vacuum, I find this differential underpriced, but with the SM codex as it is, parity should be maintained.

In most cases, this will be +3p to 17 for regular CSM. Cult troops and Chosen all get adjusted by the same amount. Very much considering +4 for Plague Marines to account for the fact that the second wound matters significantly more to them, probably isn't unwarranted. Possessed is a good question, as there's no trivially easy comparison for a T4 3+/5++ getting a third wound, but you could just move them +3 anyway.

Terminators are weird here. LC Assault Terminators actually did not change in points, and TH Assault Terminators went up by 1. With LC Terminators valued at 33, then the base price of an Assault terminator must be 23 in the new dex, but they have less flexible loadouts. Tactical Terminators are 25(38p -10 Power Fist -3 Storm Bolter) for +2ppm, but since most people go ranged+melee anyway with Chaos Terminators, moving the base price the +2 is still a damn bargain, to a minimum loadout of 29 for a Chainaxe/Combibolter equipped Chaos Terminator.

Bikes went up 5ppm; do the same for Chaos bikes, easy one.

EDIT: Looked at the Fast Attack choices again.

Warp Talons are in an odd spot since their price went up from 19 to 27 in CA2020 for no apparent reason. Vanguard Vets with 2LC and a jump pack are 27 ppm; They paid an intriguingly discounted 6p for the lightning claws. If we assume 17 in CA2020 is the actual correct price and they're supposed to be paying 3p per lightning claw instead of 5, then that gives them an equipped price of 23 at 1W; +3 for the extra wound brings them to 26, so I would place their cost there.

I can't think of a good reason offhand that Raptors should cost more than Jump Pack-equipped Assault Squad marines (20ppm). They're the equivalent, have weaker weapon options for actually assaulting things since they can't just take Eviscerators, and I don't know that I count that -1 Ld rule as truly worth a point, so as with CSM comparison to most equivalent LSM units because of things like Doctrines and stronger chapter traits, they should be -1 point on the other version.

So
CSM:17 (+3)
Chosen:18 (+3)
Raptors:19 (+1)
Warp Talons: 26 (-1, see logic above)
Possessed:23 (+3)
Havocs: 20 (+3)

Terminators: 25 (w/o gear) (+2)

Bikes: 30 (+5)

Noise:19 (+3)
Rubric:21 (+3)
Berzerker:21 (+3)
Plague:22 (+4)

And I think that's everything that would get an extra wound.

I played against my buddy on Sunday with my FH and 2 wounds on them is great. no pts increase(for our game) and it felt like they should always have had 2.

 Super Ready wrote:
Y'know, I wondered whether anyone would do this in the meantime anyway. Makes a lot of sense to me to house rule it while waiting for Codex updates.
...I would be very wary of giving Plague Marines the boost without a higher-than-everyone-else points bump. The extra Wound does a lot more for them than other units.

What would be higher than? +4 pts to 22?

@CEO Kasen- I like your breakdown I think I'm in the same ballpark. But the warp talons meant to be before lightning claws no? They are 27 ppm unless I missed an update.

 CEO Kasen wrote:

Noise:19
Rubric:21
Berzerker:21
Plague:22

And I think that's everything that would get an extra wound.

I'd nudge these up another point or two, especially for Rubrics and Plague Marines, but otherwise the list is fairly similar to what I've fiddled with for expected values.

dominuschao wrote:
What would be higher than? +4 pts to 22?

Oh, I'm not about to pretend I'd know what a decent, balanced number would be for it. It's been a while since I actually played Chaos, and I don't have the new points manual to hand. All I'm saying is, if you decide as a group that (for example) ordinary Chaos Marines and Havocs went up by 3 points each from that extra Wound, it would be unfair if Plague Marines only went up by 3 points too.

 Super Ready wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
What would be higher than? +4 pts to 22?

Oh, I'm not about to pretend I'd know what a decent, balanced number would be for it. It's been a while since I actually played Chaos, and I don't have the new points manual to hand. All I'm saying is, if you decide as a group that (for example) ordinary Chaos Marines and Havocs went up by 3 points each from that extra Wound, it would be unfair if Plague Marines only went up by 3 points too.

I'd say 22 or even 23 would be a pretty fair price for a 2 wound plague marine. More would probably be too much.

dominuschao wrote:

@CEO Kasen- I like your breakdown I think I'm in the same ballpark. But the warp talons meant to be before lightning claws no? They are 27 ppm unless I missed an update.

I'm working under the assumption that they were inadvertently made to pay for Lightning Claws twice because otherwise they went up from 9ppm to 17ppm pre-Claws, which is way too high, but then that would mean that post CA2020 they'd be base 7 without lightning claws, and before the wound increase, which doesn't quite seem right either. You'd have to kind of arbitrate that one.

I have the same feeling for talons. That said Vanguard vets were similarly pointed with the recost iirc. I hope they end up much cheaper especially without access to better saves or multi damage weaponry.


Plague marines I feel shouldn't go much above 22 ppm. Terminators landing around 25 puts a ceiling on their cost. And they typically fall near or the same as the other cult troops.

Yeah, seems fair to me. Should be incredibly easy to achieve parity since so many of the stats are the exact same.

I took a look at Vanguard Veterans, and noted that they actually only pay 3p each for Lightning Claws. This might mean, by one chain of logic, that originally Warp Talons were supposed to be 17+3x2=23ppm instead of 27, which is less stupid, and with the extra wound also valued at 3p they might go to 26.

Also evaluated that Raptors at present should not cost more than Assault Marines.

I'd say just up all chaos marine (not cultist, etc.) wounds by 1 at a cost of 3 points per model. Anything that seems extra durable (plague marines, rubrics, havocs, etc) maybe charge 5 points instead to err on the side of caution.

It's very awkward having the loyalists in a loyalist vs csm game being straight up tankier than their heretical counterparts right now.

I suspect that CSMs will get a new codex fairly early. as I'm sure GW reckongizes the awkwardness here. I'm honestly a bit suprised we're getting a xenos codex in jan and not a CSM codex

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect that CSMs will get a new codex fairly early. as I'm sure GW reckongizes the awkwardness here. I'm honestly a bit suprised we're getting a xenos codex in jan and not a CSM codex

Yeah, it is VERY awkward, and it really pisses me off. They could easely weave it into the FAQ but apparently GW thinks that 1w on termies and marines is the ONLY valuable sellingpoint in the upcomiing codex (that lands in spring 2021 by the look of it).

 Brutallica wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect that CSMs will get a new codex fairly early. as I'm sure GW reckongizes the awkwardness here. I'm honestly a bit suprised we're getting a xenos codex in jan and not a CSM codex

Yeah, it is VERY awkward, and it really pisses me off. They could easely weave it into the FAQ but apparently GW thinks that 1w on termies and marines is the ONLY valuable sellingpoint in the upcomiing codex (that lands in spring 2021 by the look of it).

I'm hoping the lack of a FAQ means two things 1: reasonably early codex release. 2: GW is giving CSM a revamp that is fairly signfcigent.

I think the article that originally unveiled 2 wounds said the tactical marine was paying 20% for the wound. So I'd start there and then look at what analogous loyalist units pay. Between bikes and terminators and the like, I think there are a reasonable number of analogues to provide a framework.

I have played one game against 2 wound Thousand Sons. We did the 20% thing and it worked alright. The basic shooting from necrons took a lot longer to whittle the squads down but the heavy hitting stuff still just deleted them. Warrior blobs on objectives won me the game so the lower model count of the even more expensive rubric marines and terminators gave me a huge advantage in that area.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I'd say just up all chaos marine (not cultist, etc.) wounds by 1 at a cost of 3 points per model. Anything that seems extra durable (plague marines, rubrics, havocs, etc) maybe charge 5 points instead to err on the side of caution.

It's very awkward having the loyalists in a loyalist vs csm game being straight up tankier than their heretical counterparts right now.

Yeah, 'awkward' is a very funny way to say 'laughably one sided to the point where you realize that MAYBE the loyalists didn't pay nearly enough for those upgrades' but I get the gist.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect that CSMs will get a new codex fairly early. as I'm sure GW reckongizes the awkwardness here. I'm honestly a bit suprised we're getting a xenos codex in jan and not a CSM codex

Yeah, it is VERY awkward, and it really pisses me off. They could easely weave it into the FAQ but apparently GW thinks that 1w on termies and marines is the ONLY valuable sellingpoint in the upcomiing codex (that lands in spring 2021 by the look of it).

I'm hoping the lack of a FAQ means two things 1: reasonably early codex release. 2: GW is giving CSM a revamp that is fairly signfcigent.

Like lack of eldars, tyranids, orks etc mean they are reasonably early release since they too are stuck with weak overpriced weapons meanwhile?

tneva82 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect that CSMs will get a new codex fairly early. as I'm sure GW reckongizes the awkwardness here. I'm honestly a bit suprised we're getting a xenos codex in jan and not a CSM codex

Yeah, it is VERY awkward, and it really pisses me off. They could easely weave it into the FAQ but apparently GW thinks that 1w on termies and marines is the ONLY valuable sellingpoint in the upcomiing codex (that lands in spring 2021 by the look of it).

I'm hoping the lack of a FAQ means two things 1: reasonably early codex release. 2: GW is giving CSM a revamp that is fairly signfcigent.

Like lack of eldars, tyranids, orks etc mean they are reasonably early release since they too are stuck with weak overpriced weapons meanwhile?

GW should've done a propper job with their FAQs. make a quasi index like era instead of this piecemeal mess.

But then again that'd probably also not solved the issues some factions have ... still it would've been better but would've actually required an investment in time.

Oh, I'm not about to pretend I'd know what a decent, balanced number would be for it. It's been a while since I actually played Chaos, and I don't have the new points manual to hand. All I'm saying is, if you decide as a group that (for example) ordinary Chaos Marines and Havocs went up by 3 points each from that extra Wound, it would be unfair if Plague Marines only went up by 3 points too.

As Chamberlain said - the number is 20%. So it would be +20% of what they are now (likely rounded up).

I have played one game against 2 wound Thousand Sons. We did the 20% thing and it worked alright. The basic shooting from necrons took a lot longer to whittle the squads down but the heavy hitting stuff still just deleted them. Warrior blobs on objectives won me the game so the lower model count of the even more expensive rubric marines and terminators gave me a huge advantage in that area.

I've said this before, but I suspect that the points increase that comes with this extra wound will negate the advantage of the extra wound for most armies. I like it for my Death Guard, but for my regular CSM? Probably not ...

Tycho wrote:

As Chamberlain said - the number is 20%. So it would be +20% of what they are now (likely rounded up).

Well, it can't be rounded up. Sternguard Veterans started at 17 and went to 20. By that math (17/5=3.4) it would have gone to 21. This could suggest either rounded down, or rounded normally.

Then try round normally and get a game in and see how it goes.

I highly doubt it'll be worse than the points values GW publishes once the codex comes out.

Looking over the new marine dex and going back to the earlier suggestion heres what straight 20% for heretics looks like.. no rounding fractions, vs a "loosely comparable" SM unit showing their increase from old to new dex:

TROOPS
CSM: 14-17 (+3 pts)
VS
Tacs: 15-18 (+3 pts)

ELITES
Chosen:15-18 (+3 pts)
VS
Company vets: 17-20 (+3 pts. Bodyguard/command squad unaccounted for)

Chaos terminators: 23-27 (+4 pts, base without gear. 30 ppm with combi bolter only)
VS
Terminators: 23-24 (+1 pt, base without gear. 29 ppm with stormbolter only)

FAST ATTACK
Bikers: 25-30 (+5 pts, base without gear. 33 ppm with combi bolter)
VS
Bike squad: 25-27 (+2 pts, base without gear. 32 ppm with twin boltgun)

Raptors:18-21 (+3 pts)
VS
jump assault squad: 17-20 (+3 pts)

Warp Talons: 17-20 (+3 pts, base no gear. 30 ppm with paired LC. Daemonic/warpflame strike unaccounted for)
VS
Jp vanguard vets: 19-21 (+2 pts, base no gear. 27 ppm with paired LC)


HVY SUPPORT
Havocs: 17-20 (+3 pts. T5/stabilization talons unaccounted for)
VS
Devastators: 15-18 (+3 pts)


NO COMPARISON
(any suggestions feel free to add)

Berzerkers: 17-20 (+3 pts)
Noise marines: 16-19 (+3 pts)
Possessed: 20-24 (+4 pts)
Plague marines: 18-21 (+3 pts)
Rubric marines: 18-21 (+3 pts)

I compared the new SM costs and it seems that 20% increase is the highest a base model received (without wargear).
The majority of units received 17% or less.

NOTE: stormbolters and equivalent are 5 ppm now, lightning claws 3 ppm now in the new dex.
This could mean the special issue bolter is likely valued higher than 5 pts.

Thoughts?

I think your analysis is accurate and I think we'll see something very much like the 17% or less that the loyalists got when the actual book comes out.

Either way, that's more than enough information to start playing with 2w chaos dudes for those who want that. Great post.