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I have been working on my background lore for a custom space marine chapter, and I realized I actually don't know who trains that first batch of marines for the new chapter. Does the parent chapter send in marines to train them? Is there some kind of government body that issues training to them somehow? Also, I know they make 1000 zygotes for the new chapter at once, but do they implant them in 1000 aspirants simultaneously or is it done in waves? That could tie back into the training actually. Maybe they implant 100 aspirants, they get trained by an outside group, and then those 100 train the remaining 900 when they get upgraded. Any information would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

Typically a new Chapter is founded around a core of Veterans from the parent Chapter, who train the new recruits and become the command structure of the newly founded Chapter. Also, there's no guarantee they'll get 1000 zygotes, or if they do if it'll be in one batch.

I imagine they’d need an awful lot more than 1000 zygotes to make 1000 marines given the failure rate of successfully turning an aspirant into a space marine.

That's what I've seen hinted or mentioned in various short stories. It tends to be a Captain from a cousin chapter (i.e. one that has the same primarch if known) that becomes the chapter master and a bunch of veterans train the new recruits. They get equipment/ships from the Mechanicus and zygotes for implantation from the High Lords. If you're using the Horus Heresy lore, they can flash hypo-train recruits to minimal fighting ability once all the implants are in and then train subsequent generations in a more drawn out tradition scout to whatever method. I haven't followed primaris lore much but I'd assume that all those marines got trained in a similar way prior to their 10,000 year nap.

Doesn't this all start at the Top? The Primarch would name a Chaplain and a Librarian, and then captains, and the captains name LTs, who name SGTs, and the training goes from there. Also don't most Marines gain the bulk of their training through their progenitor gland or whatever? They gain the memory and skills of all the previous brothers through osmosis? Also they can gain that memory through the eating of flesh, but that is....."frowned upon"....

The short story The Aegidan Oath deals with the Scythes of the Emperor during the Third Founding - they started with a Captain, a Chaplain and 73 veterans.

You call up the Mentors chapter!

Well that's a fair enough question. Though there are very vague feeling of a standard marine training kit. The sleeping pods where marines are trained in their sleep, or whatever tech-fantasy word they use. A bunch of servitor training machinery, and of course just pits or cages where marines can spar.

Feels like we see these things often enough that they're sort of handed out by the mechanucs when a new chapter is given it's battle barge.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Doesn't this all start at the Top? The Primarch would name a Chaplain and a Librarian, and then captains, and the captains name LTs, who name SGTs, and the training goes from there. Also don't most Marines gain the bulk of their training through their progenitor gland or whatever? They gain the memory and skills of all the previous brothers through osmosis? Also they can gain that memory through the eating of flesh, but that is....."frowned upon"....

None of this.
For one thing, Primarchs were really only involved in the 2nd founding (and not too happily about it in several cases) and Guilliman alone was involved in the Ultima founding. No magic memories are involved.

For the most part, the Imperium declares a new founding (there haven't been that many) and a cadre of Veterans are split off, and supervise recruitment (usually according to their parent chapter's traditions).
The highest ranked veteran would be the new Chapter Master and most of the other ranks would carry over or get promoted as appropriate. (and then ranks would accrue according to the chapter traditions).

Weren’t the first lot of primaris grown in vats and came out fighting so I guess some sort of subconscious training is available?

Anyway if the imperium is sponsoring the new founding then I guess there would be someone form the central government taking part and overseeing the training.

But I believe that there are some chapters, like dark angels, that found their own successor chapters and because they have well over the 1k soldiers that the codex says they should have they could probably just siphon off enough marines for a new chapter, already trained

mrFickle wrote:
Weren’t the first lot of primaris grown in vats and came out fighting so I guess some sort of subconscious training is available?

No. The first batches of Primaris were taken from recruits for the Loyalist Legions - they were kept in stasis when not in use.
All Chapters use Hypnotherapy & Indoctrination for training, and some chapters have other methods - Iron Hands use linked VR (Noosphere) simulations for example.

mrFickle wrote:

But I believe that there are some chapters, like dark angels, that found their own successor chapters and because they have well over the 1k soldiers that the codex says they should have they could probably just siphon off enough marines for a new chapter, already trained

No idea where you're getting this.
Where does it even suggest they have independent foundings or more than the normal number of marines per chapter?

I think mrFickle is referencing the fluff that Dark Angels are much closer to their successor chapters than others. To the point where they actually do resemble a full legion, even if they are split up on paper.

mrFickle wrote:
Weren’t the first lot of primaris grown in vats and came out fighting so I guess some sort of subconscious training is available?

The primaris were originally chapter aspirants, that were secretly diverted from the usual recruitment processes somehow. Think the 1st Morti v Guilli. Mentions where the major prius character comes from.
The cant have been legion era troops, because Cawl, didnt have the knowledge at the time and Guilliman didnt have the power to do something like that, until after the heresy.
But Cawl also had traitor prius made. Who are still in stasis.
IDK its gw theres plot holes so big, theyd swallow a whale.

They were kept in stasis for the most part, woken for surgery, training, and a chat every now and then. But plenty of hypno frogger while in stasis.

The background from the Index Astartes articles by Rick Priestly, the original author of all of 40k, and Andy Chambers his protege and the overturns in charge of all 40knlrojevts at the time, is that the Adeptus Terra considers all chapters to have their own segregated strain of gene seed. The imperium decided that the traitors had gene seed corruption as some of the cause, so they wanted to keep any gene seed from leaking from one 1000 marine chapter to the other. So it should not be possible for any training cadre to become a formal part of a new chapter and pass on their gene-seed.

I think it’s also very superior for chapters to get their training from multiple other chapters, ones that don’t command them. There are examples in the background where the Hawk Lords train pilots from existing chapters, Sgt Telion sometimes visits other chapters to train scouts, and in the Great Crusade Fulgrim had to couple his legion with other forces because they were too few and under skilled at the time he took command. We also have example where one marine takes operational command of multiple chapters but of course all those chapter keep control of their internal affairs and can withdraw from the arrangement at any time.

73 marines is very inadequate in comparison. Each specialty has many sub fields, and I don’t believe five or so apothecaries or librarians can simultaneously train acolytes to proficiency in all fields and perform all the functions the chapter needs in the meantime. A chapter almost definitely needs the perspectives of multiple masters of the forge, multiple scout and fleet commanders etc from multiple chapters.

Seventy three marines also don’t provide a first company or any battle companies. We know from right in the marine codexes and the recent Ultramarine supplement that new marines pass through the scout companies and then multiple reserve companies and go into battle to support the fighting of battle companies. When marines are trained by a coalition and a succession of multiple existing chapters, then they can go through the same exact process that marines use to gain experience in every ordinary chapter.

The cadre idea also came afaik from a forum comment in 2003 by Several Concerned Cricketers on the Bolter and chainsword. The Aegidan Oath was written by Laurie Goulding, who says in an interview that he was only peripherally aware of 40k until some time after 2003 and imo most of the BL references to cadres filtered in from the forums into stories the same way “power levels” are pretty arbitrary and the infamous c s goto hijinks got published the first time round.

We can integrate the cadre idea by saying that they provide a temporary command structure while the new marines get experienced. I think that infringes on every chapter being sovereign though. The old chapter cult and the chapter master who spent years cultivating these cadre offers cause exactly the kind of cultural leakage between chapters that the High Lords and Guilliman wanted to prevent by enacting the codex.

Chapters are almost totally sovereign, they don’t pay any tithe but gene seed, they don’t have to follow the religion, they appoint their own leaders and answer formally to nobody. The way the imperium works, they can implant all 1000 sets of gene seed at once, the best ones become on-paper Chapter Master and other officers, but in battle they are like IRL second lieutenants and act essentially as platoon commanders supporting battle companies from other chapters.

Except thats not quite how things actually work.
Pretty sure Amit got pisssed when Guiliman gave him his big choppers and what was left of his company after Terra and said go forth and kill, but your not BA now.

Look back to to how new specfors were created in ww2. Or for you Americans nam and creating the seals.
So they took a high raking officer, he got his pick of ncos, theyd grab a few guys, then open up recruitment.
They didnt get much in the way of equipment. Heres a few jeeps (rhino) and a couple of trucks (strike cruiser).

In war time theyd send in a few officers to a native pop and create a army.

73 marines is maybe 50 ncos and 23 command and support. Theyre not supposed to make a first or battle company. At least not for 50ish years for a battle company.
50 vet sergeants training 10 scouts at a time, even at 75% casualty rate, It wouldnt really take all that long to get up to chapter strength. Youd get your first batch of tacs after 5 years.
Theyre scouts theyre not supposed to die in needless assaults.
All those sergeants passed scoot training, they have held lines, assaulted more lines.

Now they could slap together 1000 marines at once and hypno indoctrinate them.
But thats like 1000 marines straight out of uni/ college. Who know the theory, but never put it into practice.
Which is worse than 1000 marines thats just finished a apprenticeship. Who know the practice, but still figuring the theory out.
Theyve both spent 4/5 years at school. Which would you follow?

Its not like chapters arent part of the same book anyway.
The Imperium tries the 1000 body and Mentor Legion tactics, and you end up with something like the cursed founding or the Minotaurs.

Which would you follow?

100% I’d follow Dante and an entire strike force of Blood Angels, Howling Griffons, Executioners, and Novamarines that my chapter had been attached to. I’d

the ancient wrote:
Theyre not supposed to make a first or battle company. At least not for 50ish years for a battle company

50ish years is what you’re spitballing. It’s all conjecture, all you have is a BL story about the second founding that afaik you misquote because he doesn’t tell Amit that they’re ultramarines. What I read, white dwarf 252, says that the second founding was a splitting up of existing forces and all subsequent founding a would come purely from the gene banks.

We know how tactical squads and battle companies are made. The reserve companies support existing battle companies

Look back to to how new specfors were created in ww2.

Really dated real world example that you don’t connect well to 40k. Marine chapters are sovereign on paper. They are much more like starting the militaries of Iraq or occupied south Korea. In South Korea a US general has operational command of all ROK military, and just operational. The Korean forces have their own training, command chain, uniforms, and government. It’s not possible for them to transfer between each other. South Korea and the other US occupied nations are roughly aligned with the US and fight on the same side of conflicts, and are militarily subject to US military control, and all of this while not having US officers formally in their ranks.

Since there is another real-world comparison other than “specfor,” it’s not possible to base “how things actually work” on Specfor.

Instead of using real world examples that don’t apply, read the background. Chapters are train other chapters’ marines in the official background. New marines gain experience by fighting as auxiliaries to more experienced companies in the background. New chapters have their own gene seed and Terra stops them from cross contaminating in the background. These are all explicit descriptive cases that apply to most chapters, from the background. Exceptions are individual stories that don’t invalidate the descriptions given by the background.

These things also don’t invalidate cadres, since a chapter led by a cadre still can fight as an auxiliary to existing forces and still doesn’t have to use the geneseed of the cadre members.

Saying it’s cadre-only is based on a shaky comparison to selected real world examples, comparison to a second founding which isn’t the same as all other foundings, and doesn’t train chapters as effectively as Dante, Pugh, Tycho, Sicarius, or Grimnar with all the resources of their chapters do.

My guess is they just ask another chapter to babysit them until the chapter can build up it's own stock of Apothecaries/Chaplains/Techmarines/Command, etc.

Or do what the Primaris did and just hypno-indoctrinate them and throw the spaghetti at the wall and see who are the lucky ones to not die immediately in the first engagement like most of the Primaris did. Congrats, you rolled a 18 for luck on 4D6L, you get to be Captain of the 3rd company now.

pelicaniforce wrote:


50ish years is what you’re spitballing. It’s all conjecture, all you have is a BL story about the second founding that afaik you misquote because he doesn’t tell Amit that they’re ultramarines. What I read, white dwarf 252, says that the second founding was a splitting up of existing forces and all subsequent founding a would come purely from the gene banks.

I didnt misquote. I didnt even say he said they were ultras. Seth said to Dante theyre red ultras. Amit was just pissed at Guilliman. Though theres no telling how many marines he had left by the end. So you should get your background straight.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Really dated real world example that you don’t connect well to 40k. Marine chapters are sovereign on paper. They are much more like starting the militaries of Iraq or occupied south Korea.

Id say its you that doesnt connect, but ehh. 40k has always been based on ww2 to the sas 80s. Thing is your your saying is its all cadre based anyway. Just not from the same chapter.
Theyre not making a military. The sas, seals, commandos, and even the the Fallschirmjäger and waffen ss. All started as a idea, But with a competent command structure that had learned the craft elsewhere.

Dante might encourage a new marine if he ran into him.
Pugh, man that wall.
Tycho, dead,
Sicarius, frankly who cares where hes gone.
Grimnar, well hes a wolf, so not much good in teaching others. Prolly use them for a distraction assault.
None of them are going to spend time teaching pvt pile how to marine. Except maybe Dante.
But theyll still start small, sparing what warriors they can to train the natives.

If youve got brand new masters, chaps and sarges.
Hey weve got Lord Dante leading us. Yeah us line men. But weve only got sgt pullimus whos a day older than us.
You do realize the casualty rates with inexperienced commanders.

Its the Imperium, theres lots of recruitment/ training methods.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Or do what the Primaris did and just hypno-indoctrinate them and throw the spaghetti at the wall and see who are the lucky ones to not die immediately in the first engagement like most of the Primaris did. Congrats, you rolled a 18 for luck on 4D6L, you get to be Captain of the 3rd company now.

Better to be lucky than good. Its what the scars do.

Generally it is a splinter group of marines from a host chapter that forms the core of a new chapter. I would say that about a company's worth would do it at a minimum, with a full compliment of specialists, equipment, and facilities. Crimson Fists were down to 128 veterans on one of the crusades in the 36th millennium, and rebuild back to a full chapter. They are not the only chapter that this happens to, Celestial Lyons being another, so it is doable.

TinyLegions wrote:
Generally it is a splinter group of marines from a host chapter that forms the core of a new chapter. I would say that about a company's worth would do it at a minimum, with a full compliment of specialists, equipment, and facilities. Crimson Fists were down to 128 veterans on one of the crusades in the 36th millennium, and rebuild back to a full chapter. They are not the only chapter that this happens to, Celestial Lyons being another, so it is doable.

I doubt it's a full company.that seems a bit excessive TBH, remember a lot of marine training will be done with psyko training etc.
it's also implied that a founding isn't a quick thing and chapters are founded over a period of time. if you stagger this every 10-15 years, and have good sergants, you can start with ten sergants, whom each trains a squad, then each member of that squad trains a squad, and so on and so forth.

the ancient wrote:

It’s pretty clear I don’t need to respond to any of that

pelicaniforce wrote:

the ancient wrote:

It’s pretty clear I don’t need to respond to any of that

Dont spose you do when your wrong.