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It would be nice if the enslaved C'tan actually did something. IMO 1 power per turn on top of his existing profile would make him worth the points. As is, meh. But all LoW's are meh.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I think the Silent King is very strong if not downright OP.

If anything, he needs to go up another 50-100 points.

Would love to know the reasoning behind this.... frankly absurd take

Honestly the fact he doesn't cast a CTan power is weird since he's got one strapped to his pimp throne.

yukishiro1 wrote:
If you think those guns represent a significant aspect of the model, you shouldn't be using him, you're not going to be getting value from him using him in that way.

He's not a gun platform. The menhir are just ablative wounds with a couple bonus shots tacked on on the turn you bring him out of obscuring, they're not meant to be something you're using for multiple turns.

People see the awesome profile and think that's why you take the model, without realizing they're pointed like one-use weapons. It's like having two of the tachyron arrow relics basically.

Interesting term. Ablative wounds. The comparison I see in my head is a tank that sheds it's main gun turret the first time it takes a hit so it can still keep driving around firing a machine gun. In any case the points are off not much point debating it anymore. He will just see competitive play 0 times and GW wont sell any and hell get droped to an okayish 370 so...playable but not great.

A C'tan power would be great and fit the model, but I'm honestly afraid it would push him over the top into "auto-take" territory and I don't think anybody wants that. Maybe if you made it cast a random power each turn or something.

I'd rather he just benefit from his dynasty trait, though. His big weakness right now is haywire, which feels weird and unfluffy, and the 5+++ would go a long way to fixing that.

Has anyone here actually used him in-game yet? He actually seems fairly powerful when you've built around him.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Interesting term. Ablative wounds. The comparison I see in my head is a tank that sheds it's main gun turret the first time it takes a hit so it can still keep driving around firing a machine gun. In any case the points are off not much point debating it anymore. He will just see competitive play 0 times and GW wont sell any and hell get droped to an okayish 370 so...playable but not great.

It's not his main gun turret or anything like it. It's like his hunter-killer missile. If you're taking him for the menhir guns I 100% agree that is a very bad idea and you won't get your points from him that way.

He's already seeing competitive play. I think you are wrong on this one. Time will tell I suppose.

yukishiro1 wrote:
A C'tan power would be great and fit the model, but I'm honestly afraid it would push him over the top into "auto-take" territory and I don't think anybody wants that. Maybe if you made it cast a random power each turn or something.

I'd rather he just benefit from his dynasty trait, though. His big weakness right now is haywire, which feels weird and unfluffy, and the 5+++ would go a long way to fixing that.

Ghazzy suffers the same thing unfortunately. GW thinks them benefitting from their own army's rules will break them somehow. GW is also not good at balancing.

Tycho wrote:
Has anyone here actually used him in-game yet? He actually seems fairly powerful when you've built around him.

Yep, that's my experience. Quite powerful used intelligently in a list that he complements. Not very good to leroy jenkins up the table in a list that he doesn't synergize with.

yukishiro1 wrote:

Tycho wrote:
Has anyone here actually used him in-game yet? He actually seems fairly powerful when you've built around him.

Yep, that's my experience. Quite powerful used intelligently in a list that he complements. Not very good to leroy jenkins up the table in a list that he doesn't synergize with.

Yes. He's an absolute house.

Yep, that's my experience. Quite powerful used intelligently in a list that he complements. Not very good to leroy jenkins up the table in a list that he doesn't synergize with.

So in the list where he's been planned for and built around - did you feel like he was OP? Worth his points? Undercosted? I'm curious because like I said, he appears pretty darn strong under the correct build but I hate the look of the model so until I figure out a scratch build I like, I'm not using him, but the sense I have is that he kind of forces you into a specific build type.

Whereas, if you were to take him outside of that build - he's not that great. Which would be an indicator that he's probably fine and doesn't need toned down.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Interesting term. Ablative wounds. The comparison I see in my head is a tank that sheds it's main gun turret the first time it takes a hit so it can still keep driving around firing a machine gun. In any case the points are off not much point debating it anymore. He will just see competitive play 0 times and GW wont sell any and hell get droped to an okayish 370 so...playable but not great.

It's not his main gun turret or anything like it. It's like his hunter-killer missile. If you're taking him for the menhir guns I 100% agree that is a very bad idea and you won't get your points from him that way.

He's already seeing competitive play. I think you are wrong on this one. Time will tell I suppose.

The idea I had was surrounding him with 30 immortals and 30 deathmarks and and some preatorains. Came to the conclusion that it's awful and I'd much rather have 3 triarch stalkers for his cost.

Tycho wrote:

Yep, that's my experience. Quite powerful used intelligently in a list that he complements. Not very good to leroy jenkins up the table in a list that he doesn't synergize with.

So in the list where he's been planned for and built around - did you feel like he was OP? Worth his points? Undercosted? I'm curious because like I said, he appears pretty darn strong under the correct build but I hate the look of the model so until I figure out a scratch build I like, I'm not using him, but the sense I have is that he kind of forces you into a specific build type.

Whereas, if you were to take him outside of that build - he's not that great. Which would be an indicator that he's probably fine and doesn't need toned down.

I think he's just right overall. It seems to be that very rare case of GW actually getting it right with a big expensive model. It does need to be the right list, one with enough bodies. They don't even necessarily have to be <CORE> I don't think, though that obviously gets the most value from his auras. But the main thing is you need the stuff to screen out threats, principally stuff that can come in from strategic reserves and smash him in a round, i.e. eradicators and the like. They could be scarabs or something like that, you don't necessarily need 60 warriors or anything. The list I was trying had a 20-warrior blob, two 5-man immortals and 18 scarabs in two squads and that was plenty of bodies.

Basically you need to play cagey with him until you've neutralized stuff that can really threaten him - mostly melta squads and ranged mortal wound bombs like a plague marine grenade bomb or harlequin bikes - and at that point he can just take over the game and clean up.

He would be total junk if for some reason you still play 40k on boards without lots of obscuring terrain.

He would be total junk if for some reason you still play 40k on boards without lots of obscuring terrain.

I call this "Primarch Syndrome" - "I am the hammer of the gods. Unmaker of real ...... AAAAAAAND HE's DEAD ..." lol


You mention things killing him on one round. I don't have my dex handy but I could have sworn he had one of those "can only take x wounds per phase" rules - am I remembering that wrong?

But over-all, as you mention - while he has a lot of rules - it doesn't seem like they add up to him needing to be changed IMO.

C'tan can only take 3 per phase, he's got no limitation. Which makes him pretty squishy to stuff like eradicators. They won't kill him in one round thanks to the ablative wounds from the menhirs, but if you lose them early on and THEN get hit by an eradicator bomb...it's going to go badly for him.

It makes him a pretty technical model to play with. You need to be patient and careful with your positioning until the end of T3 against people who reserve anti-tank; if you can get him to T4 intact he's probably going to dominate the last two turns of the game.

C'tan can only take 3 per round, he's got no limitation. Which makes him pretty squishy to stuff like eradicators. They won't kill him in one round thanks to the ablative wounds from the menhirs, but if you lose them early on and THEN get hit by an eradicator bomb...it's going to go badly for him.

It makes him a pretty technical model to play with. You need to be patient and careful with your positioning until the end of T3 against people who reserve anti-tank; if you can get him to T4 intact he's probably going to dominate the last two turns of the game.

Ah - I knew someone in our dex had that wound ability. lol

Thank you for the detailed breakdown. This is how he seems to me as well. Very rewarding in the hands of a skilled player who built for him, but not so great if both of those conditions are not met.

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

...
I want to know how Bill, the Chapter Master of the Iron Generics, handles himself and his forces ....

...Thanks, I've been contemplating how to name my Chapter and it's Chapter Master. This is going into the "Maybe" list, because I've just been calling them the "Warrior Hands", a 100% Loyal Loyalist Chapter of Loyal Marines.

My Plasmancer is named Tim. I am considering putting some Tzaangor horns on him to ram (ha, ha) home the point.

Not that the model is likely to ever see the table in a competitive list...

Not that the model is likely to ever see the table in a competitive list...

There's a Plasmancer in my competitive Necron list!










But .... I'm often told I tend to do things the "hard way" ... so ... take from that what you will ....

It [the plasmancer] isn't *terrible* or anything. I just don't think it does anything really that you can justify spending a HQ and character slot on in an army so starved for them. I've already got 4 HQs locked in (TSK, CCB, chrono, psycho). I guess you could try going all in and taking two more crypteks in a silver tide list and baiting people into taking assassinate against you with an army where 4 of the 6 characters can rez on a 4+ and the other two are really hard to kill. I don't think it'd be the sort of list that wins events but it might be fun and funny.

EDIT: Sorry, for a moment I though you were talking about the Silent King

Talking about the plasmancer now, not TSK. It wasn't clear so I edited it.

Tycho wrote:

Not that the model is likely to ever see the table in a competitive list...

There's a Plasmancer in my competitive Necron list!

But .... I'm often told I tend to do things the "hard way" ... so ... take from that what you will ....

Most of my games in the last couple years (before covid...), if I was playing Necrons, I was playing Melee Necrons, and with hilariously excellent results. So, I'm rooting for you.
Disclaimer: I've never bothered with "competitive" play. But the shock on peoples' faces when Necrons run up and punch Tyranids in the face Turn 1 is.... it's something, yeah.
And now we have actual melee options! /happy

Since when does he need changing?

Is this another thread like the one about how to go about incentivising troops choices in an edition focused around Obsec where people are taking tons of troops units?

Is Dakka this out of touch?

 Bosskelot wrote:
Since when does he need changing?

Is this another thread like the one about how to go about incentivising troops choices in an edition focused around Obsec where people are taking tons of troops units?

Is Dakka this out of touch?

Do you have to ask?

Someone somewhere thinks everything is underpowered. Cos internet.

 Deikov wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

...
I want to know how Bill, the Chapter Master of the Iron Generics, handles himself and his forces ....

...Thanks, I've been contemplating how to name my Chapter and it's Chapter Master. This is going into the "Maybe" list, because I've just been calling them the "Warrior Hands", a 100% Loyal Loyalist Chapter of Loyal Marines.

I am glad that I could be of service.

I wouldn't change The Silent King. Surprisingly, he seems extremely well balanced based off of the games I've played and seen played with him.

His laundry list of unique but less powerfully synergistic rules is an example that should be used for similar models in the future. His ability to hide behind obscuring terrain due to the menhirs not being part of his total wounds is a beautifully written rule.

Honestly, his rules are among the best rules design GW has ever done, in my opinion.

Personally i love these cool near-god characters, but there should be guidlines/rules for their use such as only being available in 2000 or 3000pts game to incentivise bigger games and also these they should also make a PROPER 9th backed edition apocalypse book. I wanna see that stuff come back! The latest standalone apocalypse minigame was a big fail. People played it because it was more simple and streamlined. Not because its APOCALYPSE. And i am yet to see anyone use it or any events related to it.

Buuuuuut one can only dream right haha.

Yuki only briefly touched on this but he actually has a huge advantage over other big beefy lords of war; he benefits from obscuring terrain. He's not one 26 wound model. He's a unit with two five wound models and one 16 wound model. This means that unlike your garden variety knight or Magnus he is in far less danger from eating the entire enemy army's firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
A C'tan power would be great and fit the model, but I'm honestly afraid it would push him over the top into "auto-take" territory and I don't think anybody wants that. Maybe if you made it cast a random power each turn or something.

I'd rather he just benefit from his dynasty trait, though. His big weakness right now is haywire, which feels weird and unfluffy, and the 5+++ would go a long way to fixing that.

Ghazzy suffers the same thing unfortunately. GW thinks them benefitting from their own army's rules will break them somehow. GW is also not good at balancing.

What rules does Ghaz not benefit from?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Yuki only briefly touched on this but he actually has a huge advantage over other big beefy lords of war; he benefits from obscuring terrain. He's not one 26 wound model. He's a unit with two five wound models and one 16 wound model. This means that unlike your garden variety knight or Magnus he is in far less danger from eating the entire enemy army's firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
A C'tan power would be great and fit the model, but I'm honestly afraid it would push him over the top into "auto-take" territory and I don't think anybody wants that. Maybe if you made it cast a random power each turn or something.

I'd rather he just benefit from his dynasty trait, though. His big weakness right now is haywire, which feels weird and unfluffy, and the 5+++ would go a long way to fixing that.

Ghazzy suffers the same thing unfortunately. GW thinks them benefitting from their own army's rules will break them somehow. GW is also not good at balancing. [/quote
What rules does Ghaz not benefit from?

]

Stratagems are basically non functional on the big green git, because he doesn't have the vehicle or infantry tag ( only monster )

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Yuki only briefly touched on this but he actually has a huge advantage over other big beefy lords of war; he benefits from obscuring terrain. He's not one 26 wound model. He's a unit with two five wound models and one 16 wound model. This means that unlike your garden variety knight or Magnus he is in far less danger from eating the entire enemy army's firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
A C'tan power would be great and fit the model, but I'm honestly afraid it would push him over the top into "auto-take" territory and I don't think anybody wants that. Maybe if you made it cast a random power each turn or something.

I'd rather he just benefit from his dynasty trait, though. His big weakness right now is haywire, which feels weird and unfluffy, and the 5+++ would go a long way to fixing that.

Ghazzy suffers the same thing unfortunately. GW thinks them benefitting from their own army's rules will break them somehow. GW is also not good at balancing.

What rules does Ghaz not benefit from?

In addition to him not getting his exploding 6s in melee if taken with another Klan just because, he also loses access to Strats and other rules because of his Monster status. Hell I don't even know if they erratad him to benefit from his own rules!