How would you change the Silent King?

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**Void__Dragon**

Okay, that was why I was asking, because he was errata'd to at least benefit from the advance and charge buff he grants.

**yukishiro1**

The ability to benefit from obscuring terrain is what makes him work IMO. If he couldn't, you'd have to reserve him in most games, paying 3CP, because realistically he'd just get shot off the board if you didn't against almost any list with only that 8" move.

His horizontal profile is actually surprisingly small too - he's just on a round 100mm base and the menhirs are 50mm and can just go behind him, so really you're only having to hide a single 100mm base, which is very doable on any decent board.

**Blackie**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

In addition to him not getting his exploding 6s in melee if taken with another Klan just because, he also loses access to Strats and other rules because of his Monster status. Hell I don't even know if they erratad him to benefit from his own rules!

If ghaz is part of non goffs detachment of course it loses exploding 6s. Exploding 6s is a goffs rule, not a ghaz one. Badrukk can also be included in any clan's detachment but unless it's freeboota he won't get the freeboota bonus as well.

Ghaz has access to all those stratagems that are related to <characters> though or generic ork units, like Medi Squig, Orks Are Never Beaten, Tellyporta, More Dakka etc... Of course he's not an <infantry> or a <vehicle> and he can't use stratagems that are designed only for units with those keywords. The only stratagem that could be useful for him and not allowed is the Fight Twice thing, eveything else works on him.

**Breton**

Blackie wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I've had some games in with the Silent King and at this point I don't think he is that good or that bad really. Yes he loses fire power as he loses wounds, but from the get go he can do some serious work. I do not mind the fact that he degrades in the manner that he does and it is a system that I hope they bring to other center piece models.

I've not had him dominate the battlefield, except in one game against Grey Knights but Grey Knights are just bad, nor have I ever felt like he was a waste of points.

450 point models...when they don't get destroyed. Should dominate games. It's how the game works.

450 points models that dominate the game are typically massively undercosted though. An ork naut is 340 points and while it's fine as it is it definitely doesn't dominate anything. Silent king is easily better than a naut and worths its 450 points.

Knights should be 550+ points models.

Anyway, Grey Knights are far from being "just bad", they're actually pretty solid.

Knights should be toned down, and popped at 400-450 points so you can take 4 to 6 Guard Infantry Squads for Troops, with a ground officer.

**dan2026**

The Silent King seems just right to me.

He's quite strong in the right list with the right strategy.
But he's not auto win if you just plonk him into any Necron list.

That should be the standard for every big expensive character.

**Tycho**

Since when does he need changing?

Is this another thread like the one about how to go about incentivising troops choices in an edition focused around Obsec where people are taking tons of troops units?

Is Dakka this out of touch?

Nah. If you read the thread seems like we're largely in agreement that he's fine. A few people have mentioned that since he has that C'Tan chained to his throne, that he should maybe have a C'Tan power, but the general feeling seems to be that he's good as is.

**BertBert**

Tycho wrote:
but the general feeling seems to be that he's good as is.

Thing is, people have different definitions of "good". For some, good is when a unit is right in the middle of the power spectrum and a situational pick. Then you have people who consider everything bad that doesn't make it into top table lists on a regular basis.

From "he shouldn't exist in the first place" to "he dies in one turn against model X" and "he's super OP" we've pretty much had every possible take already - not that I'm not enjoying it, but people have vastly differing opinions on what constitutes a good unit.

**Tiberius501**

The Silent King has the Szarekhan Dynasty keyword, so wouldn’t he benefit from his Dynasty rules?

**Breton**

BertBert wrote:
Tycho wrote:
but the general feeling seems to be that he's good as is.

Thing is, people have different definitions of "good". For some, good is when a unit is right in the middle of the power spectrum and a situational pick. Then you have people who consider everything bad that doesn't make it into top table lists on a regular basis.

From "he shouldn't exist in the first place" to "he dies in one turn against model X" and "he's super OP" we've pretty much had every possible take already - not that I'm not enjoying it, but people have vastly differing opinions on what constitutes a good unit.

We've nibbled around this take, but haven't quite had it yet: People like to whine about the new thing in the new book, so don't take any of it seriously. I've seen people whine about the new Marine ATV/Attack Bike power level before anyone's really had a game with it.

**tneva82**

Tiberius501 wrote:
The Silent King has the Szarekhan Dynasty keyword, so wouldn’t he benefit from his Dynasty rules?

He also has dynastic agency which denies dynasty code benefits. Unless GW releases FAQ saying "oops that was not intended, here's a new bespoke rule to fix the issue" no he won't.

**Tiberius501**

tneva82 wrote:
Tiberius501 wrote:
The Silent King has the Szarekhan Dynasty keyword, so wouldn’t he benefit from his Dynasty rules?

He also has dynastic agency which denies dynasty code benefits. Unless GW releases FAQ saying "oops that was not intended, here's a new bespoke rule to fix the issue" no he won't.

I hope they do, cos that seems quite silly.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Blackie wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

In addition to him not getting his exploding 6s in melee if taken with another Klan just because, he also loses access to Strats and other rules because of his Monster status. Hell I don't even know if they erratad him to benefit from his own rules!

If ghaz is part of non goffs detachment of course it loses exploding 6s. Exploding 6s is a goffs rule, not a ghaz one. Badrukk can also be included in any clan's detachment but unless it's freeboota he won't get the freeboota bonus as well.

Ghaz has access to all those stratagems that are related to <characters> though or generic ork units, like Medi Squig, Orks Are Never Beaten, Tellyporta, More Dakka etc... Of course he's not an <infantry> or a <vehicle> and he can't use stratagems that are designed only for units with those keywords. The only stratagem that could be useful for him and not allowed is the Fight Twice thing, eveything else works on him.

Why shouldn't the big boss not benefit from his own exploding 6s in another army though? Whats this artifical attempt on balance really achieving? Also he didn't even affect himself in his own aura whereas every other Warboss did.

There's a reason why he was called bad.

**Xenomancers**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Blackie wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

In addition to him not getting his exploding 6s in melee if taken with another Klan just because, he also loses access to Strats and other rules because of his Monster status. Hell I don't even know if they erratad him to benefit from his own rules!

If ghaz is part of non goffs detachment of course it loses exploding 6s. Exploding 6s is a goffs rule, not a ghaz one. Badrukk can also be included in any clan's detachment but unless it's freeboota he won't get the freeboota bonus as well.

Ghaz has access to all those stratagems that are related to <characters> though or generic ork units, like Medi Squig, Orks Are Never Beaten, Tellyporta, More Dakka etc... Of course he's not an <infantry> or a <vehicle> and he can't use stratagems that are designed only for units with those keywords. The only stratagem that could be useful for him and not allowed is the Fight Twice thing, eveything else works on him.

Why shouldn't the big boss not benefit from his own exploding 6s in another army though? Whats this artifical attempt on balance really achieving? Also he didn't even affect himself in his own aura whereas every other Warboss did.

There's a reason why he was called bad.

Well hes winning tournaments so hes not bad.

It is an attempt to make people play mono. IMO it should only be mono unless narrative.

**Slayer6**

Xenomancers wrote:I would drop his points by about 100 and give him 1 ctan power. I would also give the mehnris 3++ saves.

Only 100? He's still highly vulnerable to MW spam. Why stop at a 3++?

Reduce his cost by 200, give his Mehnris (these are the very best bodyguards in the entire Necron race) a 2++ and a 3+++.

Also remove the keywords: MONSTER and VEHICLE, so certain stratagems and orders can't cheese him down. Orders such as Elimination Protocols Sanctioned, when used in tandem with a triple drop of Kappic Eagles Plasmagun Command Squads receiving Elimination Protocols Sanctioned, and attempting to also receive Take Aim from the Laurels of Command. I managed to completely eliminate him on T1 with just such a drop...

Unit1126PLL wrote:Good god in heaven, I hope GW doesn't ever hire you.

They hired Matt Ward didn't they?

**Seabass**

OK, I will say this at the risk of sounding like an ass, but it is VERY obvious many of you have not faced him.

He's likely fine. I have only played against him twice, but...he is likely quite fine.

**Lance845**

I don't think giving him a C'tan power is unreasonable. I mean its right there isn't it? And just the 1 power isn't crazy game breaking.

**Amishprn86**

vipoid wrote:
Want me to give you an honest but almost certainly unpopular answer?

Models like The Silent King should not exist in the first place. Because these are characters that have no place whatsoever just appearing on a random battlefield somewhere. It would be like statting The Emperor and just having him arrive in a random skirmish, throne and all, and start fighting like any other mook. These are characters that should stay entirely within the background. Their influence should be felt in the movement of fleets and in strategies that decide the fate of entire systems - not in tiny battlefield skirmishes. It makes the world feel very small and puts these characters on the level of Saturday-morning cartoon villains.

"I'll get you next time, Guilliman!" The Silent King cries from the ruins of his throne, his defeated army lying in charred bits around him. "Next time!"

However, if you absolutely, positively, must include a character like the Silent King, just make him an actual character. Same as they've already done with the Stormlord. Just because a given character is important, it don't mean they need their own diorama. If they do, this might be yet another splendid opportunity to go back and ask yourself whether they really need to exist on the table in the first place.

Anyway, by having them as just an infantry character (which the Silent King clearly is, sans his stupid throne), then you don't need to worry about trying to balance a pseudo-super-heavy in a game with a dismal history of such.

Alternatively, maybe use what you've already got and put the Silent King on a modified Catacomb Command Barge. That way, he can still have a more centrepiece-type model, but you've already got a reasonable set of rules for how it should work, which can be tweaked as necessary, rather than needing to stat a ludicrous hover-throne thing from scratch.

Who says its a small random skirmish battle? All my battles are giant in scale, its just a snap shot at one point of the battlefield.

**Canadian 5th**

Lance845 wrote:
I don't think giving him a C'tan power is unreasonable. I mean its right there isn't it? And just the 1 power isn't crazy game breaking.

Sure Mr. Game Designer, let's just randomly buff a model that's already seeing play in top tournament lists. That seems like good game design right there.

**Twilight Pathways**

I'm not one to dunk on GW too harshly, the game is what it is and I play and enjoy it... but I do find the insinuation that the suggested buff would somehow be upsetting their great and balanced 'game design' quite funny. We all know they're notoriously bad at creating balanced rules - a glance at Eliminators or some of the bizarre new Forgeworld rules shows this.

**Lance845**

Canadian 5th wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
I don't think giving him a C'tan power is unreasonable. I mean its right there isn't it? And just the 1 power isn't crazy game breaking.

Sure Mr. Game Designer, let's just randomly buff a model that's already seeing play in top tournament lists. That seems like good game design right there.

It's cute that you are following me from thread to thread like this but you should remember rule #1.

**vipoid**

Amishprn86 wrote:

Who says its a small random skirmish battle? All my battles are giant in scale, its just a snap shot at one point of the battlefield.

I would explain that battlefields don't work like that - least of all ones working on the scale you're trying to claim.

Now, it's possible that infantry platoons will work that way - if only because there's simply not much they can do to influence the battle elsewhere. All they can really focus on is taking or holding their assigned objectives.

However, you're talking about a battle that involves stuff like tanks, lightning-fast hover-tanks/transports, artillery, aircraft, titans etc.

These are all examples of machines that are able to either move to other areas of the battlefield very quickly or else target other areas of the battlefield very quickly. I mean, just from the range of many weapons in 40k, we know that they can fire well beyond the length of a standard table. And fliers are so fast that they're not even on the board half the time. Hence, it makes absolutely no sense for all of these to not only magically ignore what is apparently the most important area of the battlefield (as it contains all the objectives that will decide whether said battle is won or lost) but to also ignore the fact that one of the most prominent enemy commanders in the entire galaxy is sitting right there in full sight and range.

Imagine if, in the midst of a WW2 battle on the Eastern Front, Hitler himself was carried into battle on a monolithic throne, emblazoned with swastika flags. Do you really think that all the Soviet generals would have just shrugged and thought 'well, he's not in precise area I was planning to fire on so i guess he's someone else's problem'? As opposed to thinking 'man, imagine what a crushing victory it will be if the enemy sees their Fuhrer himself getting pasted by an artillery shell, and how I'll be awarded if I'm the one to do it', and ordering his artillery to alter their fire accordingly.

**Drachii**

He doesn't need a c'tan power. 1) He already does enough. 2) It's already being used to power the considerable amount of 'feth you' that the throne & its floating friends can throw out.

**Lance845**

But your forgetting that it's 40k and not reality. Real world battlefields is not what this is emulating on any level. Their tanks still have side sponsons for some reason.

**Drachii**

Ok. He still already does enough. He does not need to crap out a bunch of extra mortal wounds every turn 'because it's there'.

**Lance845**

Sorry Drachii my comment wasn't to you it was to Vipod.

**Matt Swain**

Xenomancers wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I've had some games in with the Silent King and at this point I don't think he is that good or that bad really. Yes he loses fire power as he loses wounds, but from the get go he can do some serious work. I do not mind the fact that he degrades in the manner that he does and it is a system that I hope they bring to other center piece models.

I've not had him dominate the battlefield, except in one game against Grey Knights but Grey Knights are just bad, nor have I ever felt like he was a waste of points.

450 point models...when they don't get destroyed. Should dominate games. It's how the game works.

I just saw a necron vs daemons batrep where a necron vault dominated pretty well. The seraptek got killed tho. Nightbringer did a lot of damage too.

**Sasori**

The Silent King really doesn't need to be changed. He's already shown up in several tournament winning lists, so he's about where he should be. If you buffed him anymore he'd probably end up being opressive.

**Void__Dragon**

Lance845 wrote:
Canadian 5th wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
I don't think giving him a C'tan power is unreasonable. I mean its right there isn't it? And just the 1 power isn't crazy game breaking.

Sure Mr. Game Designer, let's just randomly buff a model that's already seeing play in top tournament lists. That seems like good game design right there.

It's cute that you are following me from thread to thread like this but you should remember rule #1.

Be that as it may he appears to be right and you appear to be wrong.

**Lance845**

There really isnt a right and wrong yet. I voiced an opinion for a model that has seen very little play and against a single other codex. The data pool we have is shallow at best. Nobody knows how this is going to shake out.

**Canadian 5th**

Lance845 wrote:
There really isnt a right and wrong yet. I voiced an opinion for a model that has seen very little play and against a single other codex. The data pool we have is shallow at best. Nobody knows how this is going to shake out.

The evidence we have is that he's working well in the current meta. How is that giving you any reason to buff this model?