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 JNAProductions wrote:
You can do 94 bodies (90 Tacs, 4 HQs) in a 2k list. That's a horde to me.

MW Spam, true! Though who does that better?

90 bodies hasn't been a horde for a while now. The closest marines have to a horde unit are BT crusader squads.

 Jidmah wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You can do 94 bodies (90 Tacs, 4 HQs) in a 2k list. That's a horde to me.

MW Spam, true! Though who does that better?

90 bodies hasn't been a horde for a while now. The closest marines have to a horde unit are BT crusader squads.

Considering my RC CSM spam list contained "only " 60 CSM but still significantly outhorded hordes in regards to durability and combat ability overall even during 8th yes i do think that 90 tacs can quite easily qualify as a "horde"-type playstyle... allbeit, i prefer the more accurate term of Blobbing for it.

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
They do everything better than everything else.

9th edition is going to be a trainwreck.

when's the last time an army that was strong at the START of an edition was ruling the edition by it's end?

8th edition ring any bells.

But seriously how do they increase the lethality of every other faction by the required amount to compete without the game decending into go first table opponent GG after half a battle round.

Let's reword that: which codex that was strong at the start of an edition remained strong at the end?

CSM and cult blobs are actual horde units, unlike tacticals. It was also clarified that this is about Codex Space Marines only.

I also doubt that these hypothetical hordes translate into actual lists that can win stuff. Being able to bring lots of bodies is not the same as being good at hordes.
Orks can bring way more than 120 boyz, but the point is that they don't need to.


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Dudeface wrote:
Let's reword that: which codex that was strong at the start of an edition remained strong at the end?

6th edition's daemons.

But yeah, that's probably the only one in history

I feel "what is a horde" is largely semantics.

I mean on paper no, Marines can't run hordes because a tactical marine is 18 points, while a boy is 8 points and a termagaunt or something is 5 points. So by definition, you can't bring as many.

But you can get up to 70-80 bodies without too much difficulty, and if they all have 2+ wounds, I feel this is going to feel very much like a horde for you and your opponent. I hope you have some AP3 2 damage weapons, or this is probably going to go badly.

But then I philosophically disagree with the premise. All factions should be able to do anything. Its bad design if you go "marines are a castle shooting list, and sure there will be combat units, but we'll have to make them suck to be fair to this faction, which can *only* run assault, because we'll make their shooting units suck". Make everything viable at least in its own context.

 Jidmah wrote:
CSM and cult blobs are actual horde units, unlike tacticals. It was also clarified that this is about Codex Space Marines only.

I also doubt that these hypothetical hordes translate into actual lists that can win stuff. Being able to bring lots of bodies is not the same as being good at hordes.

CSM is 1:1 the same unit as a tac sans doctrines and with worse traits but it IS 1:1 a tac profile and even pricewise (no the 1 pts less doesn't turn it into a horde unit and neither does the 20 man limit instead of 10 because you'd never ever go above 10), stating that he is supposed to be a horde unit and the other not is a bit wierd.

Tacs are 2 wounds and 18 pts/model now.

 Jidmah wrote:
Tacs are 2 wounds and 18 pts/model now.

Which assuming the codex hasn't dones something utterly crazy can still take 60 tacs and 30 devistators plus HQ plus Assualt squad for around 100 2 wound models.
Though thinking about it I'm sure actually 90 dudes plus Chief Apocothory is probably going to be harder for most people to kill.

They can't roll around in vehicles shooting out, without disembarking, like Orks and Dark Eldar can.

They can't readily throw sacrificial units to screen their expensive ones - all the marine units are expensive enough to worry about losing.

They can't share vehicles across their whole army (only ork caveat was warkopta disallowing meganobs, now that's gone entirely).

 Jidmah wrote:
But yeah, that's probably the only one in history

7e Craftworlds, mechanicus and marines, 6e taudar spring to mind. And the second and third books of 5e were 'leafblower' guard and the marine++ space wolves - sometimes GW do overdo it early and then fall into a mid-edition damage control phase.

A.T. wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
But yeah, that's probably the only one in history

7e Craftworlds, mechanicus and marines, 6e taudar spring to mind. And the second and third books of 5e were 'leafblower' guard and the marine++ space wolves - sometimes GW do overdo it early and then fall into a mid-edition damage control phase.

Most of those weren't early edition dexes

A.T. wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
But yeah, that's probably the only one in history

7e Craftworlds, mechanicus and marines, 6e taudar spring to mind. And the second and third books of 5e were 'leafblower' guard and the marine++ space wolves - sometimes GW do overdo it early and then fall into a mid-edition damage control phase.

I feel Marines, Eldar and Tau were good from 6th to 8th, with at most 6-12 month periods of weakness that almost always prompted GW to bring in a new codex, supplement or something to bring them back up.
Its why I'd remain reasonably optimistic as a Tau player, and pessimistic as say a Tyranid player.

Ice_can wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Tacs are 2 wounds and 18 pts/model now.

Which assuming the codex hasn't dones something utterly crazy can still take 60 tacs and 30 devistators plus HQ plus Assualt squad for around 100 2 wound models.
Though thinking about it I'm sure actually 90 dudes plus Chief Apocothory is probably going to be harder for most people to kill.

As I said before, hypothetically being able to drop a pile of guys is not the same as being good at hordes. In 8th facing 70+ primaris was rather normal for me and nothing about that felt like a horde.

Dudeface wrote:
Most of those weren't early edition dexes

All of them were released within a year of the start of the edition. If you set aside the various early marine books guard and wolves were 1&2 in 5th, taudar were 2&3 in 6th (the first non-marine book was the also powerful 6e daemons). Craftwords/admech/marines/crons were all year 1 in 8th ahead of their various super detachments.
To be fair though codex power is all over the place, timing is no guarantee of success (unless you are a sisters player, then your codex is a sure indication of the end of an edition).

when's the last time an army that was strong at the START of an edition was ruling the edition by it's end?

That's easy. It was Marines. In 8th. Even when the over-all book wasn't as good, they still had 2 or 3 builds that were oppressive enough that Alessio C felt compelled to personally shame the people using them. Who can forget the Stormraven spam, or Bobby G and his amazing Razorbacks?

As far as what Marines can't do - I was going to agree with Psychic/Smite spam, but are we counting Blood Angels in this, and can they still take half a dozen psychic dreadnaughts? I've lost touch with that faction a bit.

Other than that, like someone else said, they don't really do mortal wounds well. Both DG and TSons can do it better. On the horde front - actually 96 3+ 2w bodies playing the mission is going to be tough to beat ... yikes ...

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, from this thread (which is a bit of a trainwreck), it was said that Marines, as they are now, have basically every playstyle available to them, and not just "technically"-they can do it well.

I'm curious as to what everyone here thinks is a playstyle Marines CANNOT do-or at least, cannot do well.

Well there's the obvious two -

They can't do horde, and they can't do the Super Heavy Detachment as well as bugs/orks or Knights. Pretty sure they can't do the super elite everything invulnerable Harli/Custodes thing. So given how easy it was to come up with both extremes, I'd say they also can't cash a check written by hyperbole.

What do you consider a horde? How many models is a horse army, in a 2k list?

And I’d argue that invulnerable saves are not a playstyle. They’re a defensive tool, not an entire playstyle.

I choose to answer the question in the thread title instead of the question in the body of the post.

What can Space Marines NOT do?

Crawl through small spaces.

 JNAProductions wrote:
How many models is a horse army, in a 2k list?

Since they removed Rough Riders, I'm not sure those even exist anymore.

 vipoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
How many models is a horse army, in a 2k list?

Since they removed Rough Riders, I'm not sure those even exist anymore.

Autocorrect. Damn it to hell.

But that got me a chuckle

 vipoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
How many models is a horse army, in a 2k list?

Since they removed Rough Riders, I'm not sure those even exist anymore.

AdMech?

My gosh. Another space marine bashing thread. You ever here the phrase "if you can't beat them - join them"?

 Xenomancers wrote:
My gosh. Another space marine bashing thread. You ever here the phrase "if you can't beat them - join them"?

Did you ever learn that when injecting in a conversation you should typically have something useful to add? Let us know your thoughts on what Marines Can't Do!

 Xenomancers wrote:
My gosh. Another space marine bashing thread. You ever here the phrase "if you can't beat them - join them"?

yes, but if i want to play marines on marines i play the superior 30k ruleset, which btw even has better support for non marine factions




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 Jidmah wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
How many models is a horse army, in a 2k list?

Since they removed Rough Riders, I'm not sure those even exist anymore.

AdMech?

is it now a horse with flamthrower or a flamethrower with horse?

I agree they are a strong book, but I think there is a bit of exaggeration on their capabilities.

I play Harlequins and Space Wolves. Definitely taken more interest in the former than the later due to a lot of marines in my club. Though, I always love throwing my wolves on the table.

Played a couple of games vs Space Marines with my Ynnari-Quins on the weekend, and they certainly have some tricks, but not as much as the Aledari!

They are definitely an army which can be built towards a variety of roles. Either to do many well, or one very well, at the expense of others.

I have found them to be weaker in melee, especially if they don't take enough combat specalists, and they are not very mobile (for the most part). I was able to control board space a lot better then my opponents were.

They tend to have a smaller army too, so less units, or models. Especially when taking some of the fancy toys.

The nerf to aggressors, and the removal of fly from their Primaris tanks definitely took some of the sting out of them.

The rely a lot on the 3+ saves for resiliency, but there are a lot of weapons which can chew through them pretty fast.

I need to play more games, against some more diverse builds (played against Dark Angels, and Iron Hands so far, but I think they are far from unbeatable. I also favour my Harlequins ATM in a fight vs them.

I'm more worried about Necrons, I'll be honest. The C'tan and Nightbringer in particular are things I just don't know how I'll deal with. But, this is from a Harlequin/Ynnari perspective.

 jaredb wrote:
I agree they are a strong book, but I think there is a bit of exaggeration on their capabilities.

I play Harlequins and Space Wolves. Definitely taken more interest in the former than the later due to a lot of marines in my club. Though, I always love throwing my wolves on the table.

Played a couple of games vs Space Marines with my Ynnari-Quins on the weekend, and they certainly have some tricks, but not as much as the Aledari!

They are definitely an army which can be built towards a variety of roles. Either to do many well, or one very well, at the expense of others.

I have found them to be weaker in melee, especially if they don't take enough combat specalists, and they are not very mobile (for the most part). I was able to control board space a lot better then my opponents were.

They tend to have a smaller army too, so less units, or models. Especially when taking some of the fancy toys.

The nerf to aggressors, and the removal of fly from their Primaris tanks definitely took some of the sting out of them.

The rely a lot on the 3+ saves for resiliency, but there are a lot of weapons which can chew through them pretty fast.

I need to play more games, against some more diverse builds (played against Dark Angels, and Iron Hands so far, but I think they are far from unbeatable. I also favour my Harlequins ATM in a fight vs them.

I'm more worried about Necrons, I'll be honest. The C'tan and Nightbringer in particular are things I just don't know how I'll deal with. But, this is from a Harlequin/Ynnari perspective.

...smite it in the psychic phase, then run a troupe in, hit it with a couple of fusion pistols, and then smack it in melee.

Harlequins are pretty damn good at taking down a ctan in a single turn.

Tyel wrote:But then I philosophically disagree with the premise. All factions should be able to do anything. Its bad design if you go "marines are a castle shooting list, and sure there will be combat units, but we'll have to make them suck to be fair to this faction, which can *only* run assault, because we'll make their shooting units suck". Make everything viable at least in its own context.

I don't think it's wrong to have factions lend themselves to particular archetypes. Tau shouldn't be doing all-melee, Death Guard shouldn't be doing high-mobility hit-and-run, World Eaters shouldn't be doing gunlines.

That doesn't mean Tau shouldn't have any melee, but even a melee Tau list should still be shootier than a non-Tau melee list, because it's a core part of their design. It doesn't mean Tau melee units should suck either; it means they'll be things like Kroot that are both shooting and melee, so not as optimized at melee as specialists like Bloodletters.

IMO, each faction should have a baseline for what a 'typical' army for that faction looks like which defines their identity, and then be able to lean in other build directions. Put another way, if two army builds of the same archetype meet, the respective strengths and weaknesses should reflect the differences between the factions. A Tau melee army should be better at shooting and worse at melee than a Khorne melee army. A Guard mechanized army should be slower but more durable than an Eldar mechanized army. But there are still some builds that actually should just be not available- Khorne should not have psychic spam as a list archetype, and Tyranids should not have mechanized as an archetype.

The main problem right now- and why this thread exists- is that Marines don't just lean in the direction of particular builds archetypes; they tend to do those builds better than the factions that specialize in those to begin with. It's like if Tau could build a melee list that could both out-shoot and out-fight Khorne Daemons.

 Xenomancers wrote:
My gosh. Another space marine bashing thread. You ever here the phrase "if you can't beat them - join them"?

I did! Why try to continue to make 1ksons work when the entire 9th ed rule set is stacked against them. Better to just get an army that requires a fraction of the effort. Also I've yet to play in an edition where marines were not broken at one point or another in the edition. Hell even when they were "bad" in 8th they were still better than most armies lol.

Apparently, according to the books, Space Wolves are unable to stop Virus Bombs or Exterminatus missiles.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
My gosh. Another space marine bashing thread. You ever here the phrase "if you can't beat them - join them"?

Did you ever learn that when injecting in a conversation you should typically have something useful to add? Let us know your thoughts on what Marines Can't Do!

There is a specific chapter that does everything. Not all at once though. Outside of Greyknights no marines are particularly great in the psychic phase. Marines don't have practically any units that work unsupported. Like a Jetbike captain/hive tyrant/or lord discordant. Marines building to optimize what they are best at (shooting) they aren't at all mobile or able to spread out ether due to needing to ball up to use auras.

Marines are particularly vulnerable to snipers if you guys are looking for an area to attack...that's not what this thread is about though. It's just more petulant whining about marines being the top tier army for what will amount to a brief stent in the scheme of things. Good thing it's happening during a pandemic an no one is actually playing the game.


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The Salt Mine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
My gosh. Another space marine bashing thread. You ever here the phrase "if you can't beat them - join them"?

I did! Why try to continue to make 1ksons work when the entire 9th ed rule set is stacked against them. Better to just get an army that requires a fraction of the effort. Also I've yet to play in an edition where marines were not broken at one point or another in the edition. Hell even when they were "bad" in 8th they were still better than most armies lol.

TS are literally one of the best performing factions in 8th eddition.

 Xenomancers wrote:

TS are literally one of the best performing factions in 8th eddition.

You have a source for that? i havnt checked into it but pretty much everyone ive seen in battle reports seems to think theyre a pretty below average army right now.

EDIT: and i just checked 40kstats and they have a single top 4 that dates back to august. and it was a soup list