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That's exactly what we're talking about. A Warlock can be the guy who sits up front and tanks damage, but if that's that players preferred playstyle, he's deliberately made a suboptimal choice.
I know this isn't your point. But a tank warlock is an incredibly optimal build with the right choices in 5th XD... Tank Sorcs and Warlocks are OPlol (to be fair you need to throw in at least 3 levels of fighter to really make them pop).
Now saying that, and getting more on topic...
Sometimes I like to take the less optimal build if it feels fluffier to me.
Hence sometimes playing with my webway gates and playing pretty exclusively with FB marines... even if it isn't always exactly "cannon" fluff but rather if it feels fluffier to my "brain" fluff, that's my preferred choice... I take the same approach in DnD, my tank Sorc was born that way... and holy damn,,, by level 15 that was by far the tankiest guy in the party, including a Pali and a Fighter... Sometimes we are even plesently surprised (but of course, dnd is a leveling system which is a lot harder to predict in terms of late campaign builds) .
I am just saying, I can't be the only person in the hobby who loves to see thematic or fluffy style rules on the table regardless of power level ? ... again acknowledging that, even if I think some things are fluffy, I can see how frustrating "the marinening" is and how frustrating their constant power creep can be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 16:23:13
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
Unit1126PLL wrote: That's exactly what we're talking about. A Warlock can be the guy who sits up front and tanks damage, but if that's that players preferred playstyle, he's deliberately made a suboptimal choice. More or less optimal is exactly what we're talking about.
Yes. I guess what I'm saying is that everything should move relatively close together - and factions should gain new units where they are missing obvious gaps - because this is likely to give all factions multiple viable builds. I think (perhaps incorrectly) that you are saying this will dilute faction identity too much.
It depends on the manner in which it is done and how close together you mean, which is fuzzy. I think there is a degree of closeness that is unacceptable, and I think we've reached that with Marines, which is the topic of this thread. Although, rather than the factions being too close together in this case, the real problem is that the Marines currently include every playstyle except superheavy spam and hordes of >100 models, which leaves very little space for other armies who aren't Imperial or Chaos Knights to have a playstyle in which they excel.
JNAProductions wrote: Marines aren’t vulnerable to snipers-their characters are good, but not essential. They’re also decently durable.
Daemons are vulnerable to snipers.
Nah - marines literally can't win without their characters. Take out their chapter master and its game over. Donezo. Decently durable yes - but low T. Theres a reason I am bringing 20-30 deathmarks. 20 deathmarks 1 shots a chapter master, 10 1 shots an apoth. Sure all characters are vunerable in this way but not all characters are paying extra for these powerful auras.
Intercessors outshoot Fire Warriors and outfight Genestealers Without buffs.
Whereas 30 Plaguebearers, Without buffs, kill one Gravis Marine.
The same need +1 Strength, +1 to-hit, RR1s to-hit, 7s to-hit get an extra attack, and 2 damage on 6s to-wound to kill 5 Ordinary MEQ.
That’s close to 300 points, buffed by three separate characters, to kill a min squad.
That's exactly what we're talking about. A Warlock can be the guy who sits up front and tanks damage, but if that's that players preferred playstyle, he's deliberately made a suboptimal choice.
I know this isn't your point. But a tank warlock is an incredibly optimal build with the right choices in 5th XD... Tank Sorcs and Warlocks are OPlol (to be fair you need to throw in at least 3 levels of fighter to really make them pop).
Now saying that, and getting more on topic... Sometimes I like to take the less optimal build if it feels fluffier to me.
Hence sometimes playing with my webway gates and playing pretty exclusively with FB marines... even if it isn't always exactly "cannon" fluff but rather if it feels fluffier to my "brain" fluff, that's my preferred choice... I take the same approach in DnD, my tank Sorc was born that way... and holy damn,,, by level 15 that was by far the tankiest guy in the party, including a Pali and a Fighter... Sometimes we are even plesently surprised (but of course, dnd is a leveling system which is a lot harder to predict in terms of late campaign builds) .
I am just saying, I can't be the only person in the hobby who loves to see thematic or fluffy style rules on the table regardless of power level ? ... again acknowledging that, even if I think some things are fluffy, I can see how frustrating "the marinening" is and how frustrating their constant power creep can be.
I'm not really talking about power-levels here, except in the ways in which factions are specifically powerful. For example, if you like the slow and tanky playstyle, you can take Iron Hands with dreadnoughts and Heavy Intercessors, who for the moment are much more fun to play on the table with that playstyle than mixed Nurgle, even if mixed Nurgle is technically more powerful in tournament terms because you can bog everything down with Nurglings.
Fundamentally, if someone wants the slow and tanky playstyle, they don't want to bog everyone down with Nurglings. They want to be able to trade blow for blow in a titanic struggle and come out on top through sheer brute durability. It doesn't matter that Nurgle is technically more powerful than Iron Hands in the tournament meta - what matters is Iron Hands play that style than Death Guard.
Gimmicks are not playstyles, but tournament armies are built for gimmicks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 16:28:41
That's exactly what we're talking about. A Warlock can be the guy who sits up front and tanks damage, but if that's that players preferred playstyle, he's deliberately made a suboptimal choice.
I know this isn't your point. But a tank warlock is an incredibly optimal build with the right choices in 5th XD... Tank Sorcs and Warlocks are OPlol (to be fair you need to throw in at least 3 levels of fighter to really make them pop).
Now saying that, and getting more on topic...
Sometimes I like to take the less optimal build if it feels fluffier to me.
Hence sometimes playing with my webway gates and playing pretty exclusively with FB marines... even if it isn't always exactly "cannon" fluff but rather if it feels fluffier to my "brain" fluff, that's my preferred choice... I take the same approach in DnD, my tank Sorc was born that way... and holy damn,,, by level 15 that was by far the tankiest guy in the party, including a Pali and a Fighter... Sometimes we are even plesently surprised (but of course, dnd is a leveling system which is a lot harder to predict in terms of late campaign builds) .
I am just saying, I can't be the only person in the hobby who loves to see thematic or fluffy style rules on the table regardless of power level ? ... again acknowledging that, even if I think some things are fluffy, I can see how frustrating "the marinening" is and how frustrating their constant power creep can be.
I'm not really talking about power-levels here, except in the ways in which factions are specifically powerful. For example, if you like the slow and tanky playstyle, you can take Iron Hands with dreadnoughts and Heavy Intercessors, who for the moment are much more fun to play on the table with that playstyle than mixed Nurgle, even if mixed Nurgle is technically more powerful in tournament terms because you can bog everything down with Nurglings.
Fundamentally, if someone wants the slow and tanky playstyle, they don't want to bog everyone down with Nurglings. They want to be able to trade blow for blow in a titanic struggle and come out on top through sheer brute durability. It doesn't matter that Nurgle is technically more powerful than Iron Hands in the tournament meta - what matters is Iron Hands play that style than Death Guard.
Gimmicks are not playstyles, but tournament armies are built for gimmicks.
I totally see where your coming from...
I personally think iron hands SHOULD feel like they are good at being the slow and tanky playstyle... but your right,,, they should never feel like they are a better slow tanky playstyle then nurgle/DG. They should feel like a jack of all trades master of none army with a slow tanky tilt. The subfactions and their unique rules, I feel, should still be fluffy, but mechanically should be at most a tilt from the "jack of all trades master of none" not a full out mastering + well rounded in everything else type of thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 16:33:02
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
JNAProductions wrote: Marines aren’t vulnerable to snipers-their characters are good, but not essential. They’re also decently durable.
Daemons are vulnerable to snipers.
Nah - marines literally can't win without their characters. Take out their chapter master and its game over. Donezo. Decently durable yes - but low T. Theres a reason I am bringing 20-30 deathmarks. 20 deathmarks 1 shots a chapter master, 10 1 shots an apoth. Sure all characters are vunerable in this way but not all characters are paying extra for these powerful auras.
Intercessors outshoot Fire Warriors and outfight Genestealers Without buffs.
Whereas 30 Plaguebearers, Without buffs, kill one Gravis Marine.
The same need +1 Strength, +1 to-hit, RR1s to-hit, 7s to-hit get an extra attack, and 2 damage on 6s to-wound to kill 5 Ordinary MEQ.
That’s close to 300 points, buffed by three separate characters, to kill a min squad.
Jesus. Is that right?
Yes , has show this multiple times, it also showed up when banshees got a new KIT.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Type40 wrote: I totally see where your coming from...
I personally think iron hands SHOULD feel like they are good at being the slow and tanky playstyle... but your right,,, they should never feel like they are a better slow tanky playstyle then nurgle/DG. They should feel like a jack of all trades master of none army with a slow tanky tilt. The subfactions and their unique rules, I feel, should still be fluffy, but mechanically should be at most a tilt from the "jack of all trades master of none" not a full out mastering + well rounded in everything else type of thing.
Exactly. Iron Hands should be slowish and tankyishwhen compared with other Marines, but not moreso than Death Guard. Though Marines also have a problem with proliferation of subfactions - if Iron Hands are slow and tanky, what are Salamanders? If BT are aggressive and fighty, what are Blood Angels and SW?
That's why I say some folding together of the "marine family" rather than increased uniqueness is vital for the health of the game. Marines have cannibalized each other almost totally, so now they're moving out and devouring everyone else's shtick as well.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/28 16:40:41
Yes , has show this multiple times, it also showed up when banshees got a new KIT.
I should have clarified, I knew about the Firewarriors and Genestealers thing, but the idea that 30 Plaguebearers only killed one marine is totally shocking to me. (and ridiculously stupid)
Type40 wrote: I totally see where your coming from...
I personally think iron hands SHOULD feel like they are good at being the slow and tanky playstyle... but your right,,, they should never feel like they are a better slow tanky playstyle then nurgle/DG. They should feel like a jack of all trades master of none army with a slow tanky tilt. The subfactions and their unique rules, I feel, should still be fluffy, but mechanically should be at most a tilt from the "jack of all trades master of none" not a full out mastering + well rounded in everything else type of thing.
Exactly. Iron Hands should be slowish and tankyishFor Marines, but not moreso than Death Guard. Though Marines also have a problem with proliferation of subfactions - if Iron Hands are slow and tanky, what are Salamanders? If BT are aggressive and fighty, what are Blood Angels and SW?
That's why I say some folding together of the "marine family" rather than increased uniqueness is vital for the health of the game. Marines have cannibalized each other almost totally, so now they're moving out and devouring everyone else's shtick as well.
100%. Which is why all the supplement stuff is really terrible. For the supplement to even have reason to exist means that it's encouraged to deviate pretty hard towards that Chapters "specialty flavor", and if Marines are starting out being "pretty good but not excellent" in any particular area, the supplement will push already decent stats well into "excellent" territory, and conflict with the areas of expertise of other factions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 16:44:14
Yes , has show this multiple times, it also showed up when banshees got a new KIT.
I should have clarified, I knew about the Firewarriors and Genestealers thing, but the idea that 30 Plaguebearers only killed one marine is totally shocking to me. (and ridiculously stupid)
Why is that surprising, ignoring melee limitations at best 30 pb 31 a.
15.5 Hits, 7.75 wounds 1 rerolls so count that upwards as a hit because we are benevolent.
8.75 wounds 3 wounds.
1 dead primaris 1 wounded.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 16:51:51
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Yes , has show this multiple times, it also showed up when banshees got a new KIT.
I should have clarified, I knew about the Firewarriors and Genestealers thing, but the idea that 30 Plaguebearers only killed one marine is totally shocking to me. (and ridiculously stupid)
Why is that surprising, ignoring melee limitations at best 30 pb 31 a.
15.5 Hits, 7.75 wounds 1 rerolls so count that upwards as a hit because we are benevolent.
8.75 wounds 3 wounds.
1 dead primaris 1 wounded.
It's probably surprising since I haven't seen plagubearers on the table in a long time, and my memory is shaped by a time when the lesser daemons were still decent/good.
I hope they tank hits ok (but I'm guessing they don't really)
Type40 wrote: I totally see where your coming from...
I personally think iron hands SHOULD feel like they are good at being the slow and tanky playstyle... but your right,,, they should never feel like they are a better slow tanky playstyle then nurgle/DG. They should feel like a jack of all trades master of none army with a slow tanky tilt. The subfactions and their unique rules, I feel, should still be fluffy, but mechanically should be at most a tilt from the "jack of all trades master of none" not a full out mastering + well rounded in everything else type of thing.
Exactly. Iron Hands should be slowish and tankyishwhen compared with other Marines, but not moreso than Death Guard. Though Marines also have a problem with proliferation of subfactions - if Iron Hands are slow and tanky, what are Salamanders? If BT are aggressive and fighty, what are Blood Angels and SW?
That's why I say some folding together of the "marine family" rather than increased uniqueness is vital for the health of the game. Marines have cannibalized each other almost totally, so now they're moving out and devouring everyone else's shtick as well.
See I just don't want to see the rules flavor removed. I would have prefered that SWs went the way of GK... easily could of been explained in the lore/fluff that SWs wouldnt want primaris... in terms of model range,,, SWs certainly have enough unique kits already. To be honest, I personally do not see primaris as "real" SW kits... they are just vanilla marines XD... but I know that is a silly way to look at it these days.
I guess the big problem is... GW wanted to sell the primaris kits to the SW players... and then GW ended up in a situation with two types of SW players. The ones like me who are like, "damn i love these unique units that my army uses and don't want to play this vanilla bloat" and the other players who went "Oh i love primaris, SW colours, and their chapter tactic." and they are frantically trying to appease both.
I am sure this is true with some of the other power armor factions as well...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/28 16:59:29
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
TS are literally one of the best performing factions in 8th eddition.
You have a source for that? i havnt checked into it but pretty much everyone ive seen in battle reports seems to think theyre a pretty below average army right now.
40k stats. For years TS were at the top of the charts for win rates. Virtually every choas army was taking a TS detachment.
Lol, take x detachment and suddendly the whole dex performs well that is a non argument and just shows the lackluster state of most chaos dexes needing to soup to be relevant....
This is how choas functions. They are specifically designed this way. In 8th - no one was bringing mono army so it's pointless to even make this argument. Interestingly...can you name another army other than marines that has to give up all their special rules to take allies? It's almost like they are specifically designed to be a mono force.
Sisters.
Actually, nobody, because space marines give up ONE of their special rules to take allies. Not all.
When they take allies. they ONLY give up doctrines. Other armies lose their doctrines if they take allies as well - they just don't get them in the first place, because GW hasn't fething added them to 75% of the rest of the armies in the game, because apparently it wasn't important that people just had to continuously play games against opponents who get to have a special blanket rule on their whole army they didn't get.
How 'bout this: we play a game, but I get an extra 100pts. That's not much! Just 100pts! NBD - I mean it's like 1 unit in a 2000pt game.
Would that 2100pts not just bug the absolute hell out of you every time you lost against me? Would it not frustrate you, any time that extra unit that I get that you don't get for no good reason killed something, or scored an objective? Especially in close games, wouldn't it just drive you crazy when you think about the fact that if I hadn't had that extra unit, you would have won that game?
That's how playing against doctrines has felt as anybody that's not a marine. every time you roll an armor save, get a six, and your opponent goes "shoot - sorry, that was actually AP-4, i'm in devastator" and then rolls a 5 or 6 for damage it just makes you wish you were playing against any other person there playing any other army.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Yes , has show this multiple times, it also showed up when banshees got a new KIT.
I should have clarified, I knew about the Firewarriors and Genestealers thing, but the idea that 30 Plaguebearers only killed one marine is totally shocking to me. (and ridiculously stupid)
Why is that surprising, ignoring melee limitations at best 30 pb 31 a.
15.5 Hits, 7.75 wounds 1 rerolls so count that upwards as a hit because we are benevolent.
8.75 wounds 3 wounds.
1 dead primaris 1 wounded.
It's probably surprising since I haven't seen plagubearers on the table in a long time, and my memory is shaped by a time when the lesser daemons were still decent/good.
I hope they tank hits ok (but I'm guessing they don't really)
5+++ and sv6+ -1 isn't stackable anymore ...
For most enemies still steep with t4 but against the intercessors in the exemple....
Yeah ,no.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
This is how choas functions. They are specifically designed this way. In 8th - no one was bringing mono army so it's pointless to even make this argument. Interestingly...can you name another army other than marines that has to give up all their special rules to take allies? It's almost like they are specifically designed to be a mono force.
The majority of what you are talking about is imperial soup.
While some effective hero hammer type armies could really do well and even dominate the game. That really has nothing to do with the space marine codex. Invisibility was a spell that every army had access too and pretty much every winning army was abusing it in some way shape or form...Just some broken forge world option let you pick your power...(also...not in the space marine codex) ofc.
Bark star...thunder star...Cent star...Super friends? Space marines right? Actually no...we call that hero hammer for a reason. It was a broken game.
Xenomancers wrote:This antimarine sentiment is outrageous. Almost as outrageous as how bad marines were in 8th eddition before they got a real codex. 40% WR in competitive for 2 consecutive years. Where was the outrage then?
Xenomancers wrote: For several editions marines have been my primary army. It's always been below top tier. Requiring gimmicks to function with better armies.
Xenomancers wrote: Like seriously Marines were the worst army in 40k for the 85% of the edition and the best for the last 15%.
So to summarize, Thousand Sons are in a great place in 8th and 9th because they can soup with Chaos and do well. But Space Marines, while winning tournaments and placing extremely well in LVO and Adepticon, were trash because they had to soup, and had a low W/L rate. Also, SM's were only the best in 8th edition for "15%" of the time. Just ignore the index phase, change the definition of "Worst" from meaning the most terrible option to "Not the best" and than ignore Tournament results and assume that SM 2.0 was only 15% of the game
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 17:06:24
Type40 wrote: See I just don't want to see the rules flavor removed.
Unfortunately, this is necessary right now, at least if there is going to be anything left for anyone else flavorwise. The game does not have infinite capacity for expansion, so there is a finite amount of "things which can be done" to give an army a unique identity. SW and BT especially are autocannibalizing each other. Which army has "Abhor the Witch!" as a battlecry? BT Which army got the anti-Psyker unit? SW Which army is known for their righteous godly fury? BT Which army gets rules to represent righteous fury? SW Which army is famous for grit and fighting through pain? SW. Which army gets more of the FNP style rule? BT.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 17:05:40
Yes , has show this multiple times, it also showed up when banshees got a new KIT.
I should have clarified, I knew about the Firewarriors and Genestealers thing, but the idea that 30 Plaguebearers only killed one marine is totally shocking to me. (and ridiculously stupid)
Why is that surprising, ignoring melee limitations at best 30 pb 31 a.
15.5 Hits, 7.75 wounds 1 rerolls so count that upwards as a hit because we are benevolent.
8.75 wounds 3 wounds.
1 dead primaris 1 wounded.
It's probably surprising since I haven't seen plagubearers on the table in a long time, and my memory is shaped by a time when the lesser daemons were still decent/good.
I hope they tank hits ok (but I'm guessing they don't really)
5+++ and sv6+ -1 isn't stackable anymore ...
For most enemies still steep with t4 but against the intercessors in the exemple....
Yeah ,no.
Yeah, see I'm looking at a time when Plaguebearers were T5, were 2A each and always wounded on a 4+, in an era where marines were 1W.
Sigh. Man, lesser daemons have taken a huge tumble.
This is how choas functions. They are specifically designed this way. In 8th - no one was bringing mono army so it's pointless to even make this argument. Interestingly...can you name another army other than marines that has to give up all their special rules to take allies? It's almost like they are specifically designed to be a mono force.
The majority of what you are talking about is imperial soup.
While some effective hero hammer type armies could really do well and even dominate the game. That really has nothing to do with the space marine codex. Invisibility was a spell that every army had access too and pretty much every winning army was abusing it in some way shape or form...Just some broken forge world option let you pick your power...(also...not in the space marine codex) ofc.
Bark star...thunder star...Cent star...Super friends? Space marines right? Actually no...we call that hero hammer for a reason. It was a broken game.
Xenomancers wrote:This antimarine sentiment is outrageous. Almost as outrageous as how bad marines were in 8th eddition before they got a real codex. 40% WR in competitive for 2 consecutive years. Where was the outrage then?
Xenomancers wrote: For several editions marines have been my primary army. It's always been below top tier. Requiring gimmicks to function with better armies.
Xenomancers wrote: Like seriously Marines were the worst army in 40k for the 85% of the edition and the best for the last 15%.
So to summarize, Thousand Sons are in a great place in 8th and 9th because they can soup with Chaos and do well. But Space Marines, while winning tournaments and placing extremely well in LVO and Adepticon, were trash because they had to soup, and had a low W/L rate. Also, SM's were only the best in 8th edition for "15%" of the time. Just ignore the index phase, change the definition of "Worst" from meaning the most terrible option to "Not the best" and than ignore Tournament results and assume that SM 2.0 was only 15% of the game
That checks out, yup!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 17:05:51
Type40 wrote: See I just don't want to see the rules flavor removed.
Unfortunately, this is necessary right now, at least if there is going to be anything left for anyone else flavorwise. The game does not have infinite capacity for expansion, so there is a finite amount of "things which can be done" to give an army a unique identity. SW and BT especially are autocannibalizing each other. Which army has "Abhor the Witch!" as a battlecry? BT Which army got the anti-Psyker unit? SW Which army is known for their righteous godly fury? BT Which army gets rules to represent righteous fury? SW Which army is famous for grit and fighting through pain? SW. Which army gets more of the FNP style rule? BT.
See I disagree.
I agree the game doesn't have infinite capacity for expansion... the solution is to stop expanding.
SWs do not need expansion, SMs do not need expansion... the solution is to stop focusing on the power armor factions not too remove one... removing one doesnt leave more room for future expansion, the expansion has already happened. Putting in more work to remove an unique subfaction that has been a flavour twist/divergent from mainline marines in different capacities since 2nd edition is not going to solve the fact that GW is only focusing on power/armor and primaris marines... What solves the problem is to just leave the power armor alone and start giving attention to everyone else...
Removing stuff doesn't fix anything.
Let the SWs and marines feel like craftworlds for a while, leave em alone, give them some slow minor updates for a year or two. tweak them later when necissary... why remove what's already there ? that feels like more work, they ll have to figure out what to do with all the rules for the current unique kits that exist, they arn't just going to throw those kits out. Even if that means replacing the SW datasheets with generic marine ones,,, that is extra work for the design team... Leave it alone for a long while and stop expanding them...
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
Nah - marines literally can't win without their characters. Take out their chapter master and its game over. Donezo. Decently durable yes - but low T. Theres a reason I am bringing 20-30 deathmarks. 20 deathmarks 1 shots a chapter master, 10 1 shots an apoth. Sure all characters are vunerable in this way but not all characters are paying extra for these powerful auras.
??
Marines have the best "standalone" units in the game, they don't need the character support to function, thats why CM were at the center of many complaints, because they were overkill.
You saying that marines are MORE character dependent then demons is quite telling. Slaanesh demons with no character lose 1 strength and cannot advance and charge, THATS a meaningful buff considering their fragility.
Minus the fluff what is ACTUALLY unique about them? Mechanically thunderwolves being calvery isn't really different from a bike. Wolfkin arn't really that different from jump infantry with claws. Frost weapons are just another version of power weapons.
Are they the melee army? Well so are the blood angles, parts of the deathwing, and the raven guard.
Do they hate psykers? So do the black templar except the black templar don't use them by a different name. Or do they now?
As has been mentioned, SM are so bloated they step on their own toes let alone everyone elses.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Type40 wrote: See I just don't want to see the rules flavor removed.
Unfortunately, this is necessary right now, at least if there is going to be anything left for anyone else flavorwise. The game does not have infinite capacity for expansion, so there is a finite amount of "things which can be done" to give an army a unique identity. SW and BT especially are autocannibalizing each other. Which army has "Abhor the Witch!" as a battlecry? BT Which army got the anti-Psyker unit? SW Which army is known for their righteous godly fury? BT Which army gets rules to represent righteous fury? SW Which army is famous for grit and fighting through pain? SW. Which army gets more of the FNP style rule? BT.
See I disagree. I agree the game doesn't have infinite capacity for expansion... the solution is to stop expanding. SWs do not need expansion, SMs do not need expansion... the solution is to stop focusing on the power armor factions not too remove one... removing one doesnt leave more room for future expansion, the expansion has already happened. Putting in more work to remove an unique subfaction that has been a flavour twist/divergent from mainline marines in different capacities since 2nd edition is not going to solve the fact that GW is only focusing on power/armor and primaris marines... What solves the problem is to just leave the power armor alone and start giving attention to everyone else... Removing stuff doesn't fix anything. Let the SWs and marines feel like craftworlds for a while, leave em alone, give them some slow minor updates for a year or two. tweak them later when necissary... why remove what's already there ? that feels like more work, they ll have to figure out what to do with all the rules for the current unique kits that exist, they arn't just going to throw those kits out. Even if that means replacing the SW datasheets with generic marine ones,,, that is extra work for the design team... Leave it alone for a long while and stop expanding them...
The problem with "stopping focus" is that it simply can't work. GWhas to update Space Marines - and reasonably so, they're the most popular faction - but if you leave the rest of the Space Marines (e.g SW/BA/whomever) unupdated, you end up with pretty extreme feelbads [e.g. black templars end up better than wolves]. So GW has to update ALL of the Space Marines at once. GW can't just shout "STASIS BOMB" and never update Marines again. The process of these updates consumes a gakload of GW's time - both in terms of actual time and energy of the workers, and in terms of the time and energy building and creating new model kits and the limited amount of release slots in a year. Perhaps they could have before Primaris, but now the genie is out of the bottle, and they've got a whole second Space Marine range to finish up and release.
There are 52 release slots in a year, provided GW releases something every Saturday...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 17:27:28
Firewrriors aren't there to outshoot intercessors. They are there to keep your riptides killing intercessors at a massive rate.
Tyranids are fething bad. One of my favorite armies too it is disgraceful. Though - with advance and charge - geensteelers ALWAYS hit intercessors first and pretty much maul the unit for a weak reprisal and then fight again and wipe them out.
Plaugebearers aren't intended to kill things. They are a tarpit unit. If they locked in with intercessors they would be there the whole game.
I mean nothing you are saying is wrong but not sure what the point is. Intercessors can't do a lot of things firewarriors can...like put a reroll 1's to hit buff on any unit within 36". Give supporting fire for units being charged within 6" of them for free. Plus with a str 5 weapon they aren't bad for chipping wounds off 3+ save t8 tanks. Intercessors might as well be guardsmen vs t8 tanks.
Go ahead and try it. Pay 600 points for your 30 intercessors that have no ability to engage tanks and remove infantry at a "decent" clip unless they can with a 6 inch move and without advancing if they want to shoot with a bolt rifle make it into melee without being destroyed (unlikely).
It's like you guys play in metas where ap-2/3/4 weapons with multiple shots and multi damage aren't the norm. Like...the legit norm.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 17:30:48
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I mean I guess my criticism here is that what a "typical" army is, often ends up hamstringing the faction.
So for example, something I disagree about - is venom spam. And to an extent raider spam. There is a strong feeling that any Dark Eldar unit deigning to touch the earth at the start of a game is unfluffy - so the mechanics should make you not want to do it. But this just results in most DE armies looking and playing much the same, because if you have to take transports, there are limited points left for other things.
But the response goes "but the Dark Eldar are fast (cos transports) and fragile (cos T3 and T5 Transports) and... and I guess Talos exist but that's just how its meant to be".
The result is you have a sort of mutilated faction. It can't really *do anything* but fast transport/vehicle spam or loads of Talos - and we are meant to believe its fundamentally unfluffy so the rules shouldn't allow anything else anyway. So no new models for you. But Dark Eldar could have so much more.
In the same way, I don't really see how it hurts the game if Tau were to get the "combat Tau update" and those units were "good". There are issues of synergies - but "you can't just run just these combat units, you must take triptide" doesn't seem like good or necessary design. I don't think World Eaters should be running sorcerers - but there's no reason they can't have "magic priests" who on the table do essentially the same thing. The limit is the imagination.
By way of examples - where I feel GW have done well - is new Sisters and new Necrons. There are inevitably more and less optimal ways to play - but I feel you can do whatever you like with those factions. You can play horde (or at least massed infantry). You can play mechanised. You can play with an assault focus, or a defensive shooting focus or a hybrid. There isn't (at least for me) an obvious A-list build encompassing how the faction *is meant to play*, and then a range of units which GW would prefer you just didn't use.
(the_scotsman sometimes talks about using Marine rules for Eldar - I think there is a real case for using Sisters rules for DE.)
I think your example with DE highlights bad design: The way to characterize DE as the mobile, aggressive, transport-based army isn't to make taking troops on foot not useful for their points. It's to give you lots of options to take transports, and options to take other mobility upgrades, and if you really want you can run an army on foot... in which case your infantry will still be faster and made of glass relative to other factions' infantry, because that's a core part of your faction identity.
Does that make sense? I'm saying sure, every army should be able to do a foot infantry horde- and then the DE one will be fast and glass hammery, the Tau one will be shooty but suck at melee, the Death Guard one will be tough but slow, and so on. None of them should be bad because you're 'doing it wrong', just that they should each play in line with their faction identity.
If you want to make a DE gunline you should be able to do that- but you won't be able to outshoot a Tau gunline directly, since you'll still be paying for the higher mobility that is emblematic to the faction, and you'll need to use that mobility to make them effective. And Tau should be able to make a melee army that out-fights a generalist Marine army, but not one that out-fights Berserkers, because shooting is a core part of the Tau identity so you can't lean into melee quite as hard as the faction for whom that's their identity. You'll have to leverage your short-ranged support shooting (eg Farsight Enclaves) to tip the scale.
Taking Necrons as an example, no matter what kind of build you spec into you will still have durability and regeneration as key army traits. You can make a skimmer-borne infantry army like DE, but it won't be as fast or glass hammer-y as the DE equivalent.
Should you be able to build glass hammer Necrons that don't actually feel 'Necron' in any meaningful way, and can do the glass hammer thing in exactly the same way as DE? I'd argue no. If each of the different factions doesn't convey a distinct feel and distinct specialization- even while having the ability to build into a variety of archetypes that leverage that specialization in different ways- then what's the point of having different factions?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/28 17:33:09
This is how choas functions. They are specifically designed this way. In 8th - no one was bringing mono army so it's pointless to even make this argument. Interestingly...can you name another army other than marines that has to give up all their special rules to take allies? It's almost like they are specifically designed to be a mono force.
The majority of what you are talking about is imperial soup.
While some effective hero hammer type armies could really do well and even dominate the game. That really has nothing to do with the space marine codex. Invisibility was a spell that every army had access too and pretty much every winning army was abusing it in some way shape or form...Just some broken forge world option let you pick your power...(also...not in the space marine codex) ofc.
Bark star...thunder star...Cent star...Super friends? Space marines right? Actually no...we call that hero hammer for a reason. It was a broken game.
Xenomancers wrote:This antimarine sentiment is outrageous. Almost as outrageous as how bad marines were in 8th eddition before they got a real codex. 40% WR in competitive for 2 consecutive years. Where was the outrage then?
Xenomancers wrote: For several editions marines have been my primary army. It's always been below top tier. Requiring gimmicks to function with better armies.
Xenomancers wrote: Like seriously Marines were the worst army in 40k for the 85% of the edition and the best for the last 15%.
So to summarize, Thousand Sons are in a great place in 8th and 9th because they can soup with Chaos and do well. But Space Marines, while winning tournaments and placing extremely well in LVO and Adepticon, were trash because they had to soup, and had a low W/L rate. Also, SM's were only the best in 8th edition for "15%" of the time. Just ignore the index phase, change the definition of "Worst" from meaning the most terrible option to "Not the best" and than ignore Tournament results and assume that SM 2.0 was only 15% of the game
Semper's smack down has a damage characteristic of 3d6
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Nah - marines literally can't win without their characters. Take out their chapter master and its game over. Donezo. Decently durable yes - but low T. Theres a reason I am bringing 20-30 deathmarks. 20 deathmarks 1 shots a chapter master, 10 1 shots an apoth. Sure all characters are vunerable in this way but not all characters are paying extra for these powerful auras.
??
Marines have the best "standalone" units in the game, they don't need the character support to function, thats why CM were at the center of many complaints, because they were overkill.
You saying that marines are MORE character dependent then demons is quite telling. Slaanesh demons with no character lose 1 strength and cannot advance and charge, THATS a meaningful buff considering their fragility.
Example of best stand alone units in the game pls. You can't say eradicators...they are going to be heavily nerfed. They are a mistake unit and everyone knows it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 17:32:21
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Xenomancers wrote: Firewrriors aren't there to outshoot intercessors. They are there to keep your riptides killing intercessors at a massive rate.
Tyranids are fething bad. One of my favorite armies too it is disgraceful. Though - with advance and charge - geensteelers ALWAYS hit intercessors first and pretty much maul the unit for a weak reprisal and then fight again and wipe them out.
Plaugebearers aren't intended to kill things. They are a tarpit unit. If they locked in with intercessors they would be there the whole game.
I mean nothing you are saying is wrong but not sure what the point is. Intercessors can't do a lot of things firewarriors can...like put a reroll 1's to hit buff on any unit within 36". Give supporting fire for units being charged within 6" of them for free. Plus with a str 5 weapon they aren't bad for chipping wounds off 3+ save t8 tanks. Intercessors might as well be guardsmen vs t8 tanks.
Go ahead and try it. Pay 600 points for your 30 intercessors that have no ability to engage tanks and remove infantry at a "decent" clip unless they can with a 6 inch move and without advancing if they want to shoot with a bolt rifle make it into melee without being destroyed (unlikely).
It's like you guys play in metas where ap-2/3/4 weapons with multiple shots and multi damage aren't the norm. Like...the legit norm.
Except Firewarriors can't do half the stuff you just said.
Also take breachers or kroot as they are also Tau Troops and guess what both get convincingly trounced by marine troops.
Xenomancers wrote: Firewrriors aren't there to outshoot intercessors. They are there to keep your riptides killing intercessors at a massive rate.
Exactly, a SMtac unit should absolutely out perform a dedicated troop choice in its role, point for point.
Xenomancers wrote: Tyranids are fething bad. One of my favorite armies too it is disgraceful. Though - with advance and charge - geensteelers ALWAYS hit intercessors first and pretty much maul the unit for a weak reprisal and then fight again and wipe them out.
Exactly, don't worry about doing the math, just trust me, and also, always give the advantage to the Nids because reasons. Oh, and ignore anyone who shows you the math that Genestealers actually LOSE to Intercessors if the intercessors go first.
Xenomancers wrote: Plaugebearers aren't intended to kill things. They are a tarpit unit. If they locked in with intercessors they would be there the whole game.
I'll actually give you this one, that is in fact their purpose...however, they aren't locked in combat thanks to GW's new rules So you are wrong in that regard.
Xenomancers wrote: I mean nothing you are saying is wrong but not sure what the point is. Intercessors can't do a lot of things firewarriors can...like put a reroll 1's to hit buff on any unit within 36". Give supporting fire for units being charged within 6" of them for free. Plus with a str 5 weapon they aren't bad for chipping wounds off 3+ save t8 tanks. Intercessors might as well be guardsmen vs t8 tanks.
Yeah i'm lost on your 1st part here, Firewarriors can not give a hit buff to other units. Unless you are talking about the buff to the Sgt and than giving him a markerlight...but even than its only a 50/50. Atm Firewarriors are 9pts or basically half of what intercessors are. 20 Firewarriors = 9 Intercessors. At Max range 20 firewarriors get 10 hits, 5 wounds and 1.66 dmg. At Max range 9 Intercessors get 18 shots, 12 hits, 4 wounds and 2 Dmg. So yet again, Intercessors out perform Tau Firewarriors LMAO! Dude you keep trying to make these arguments but never do the math.
Xenomancers wrote: Go ahead and try it. Pay 600 points for your 30 intercessors that have no ability to engage tanks and remove infantry at a "decent" clip unless they can with a 6 inch move and without advancing if they want to shoot with a bolt rifle make it into melee without being destroyed (unlikely).
Just proved that they are BETTER vs T8 3+ vehicles than those firewarriors, and proved before that they are better at killing infantry than those firewarriors. They also are ridiculously better in CC. And since 9th relies on you taking and holding an objective...
Xenomancers wrote: It's like you guys play in metas where ap-2/3/4 weapons with multiple shots and multi damage aren't the norm. Like...the legit norm.
I think basically everyone plays in that meta now because the biggest part of the meta right now is...Space Marines. And Space Marines gear themselves to take on....space marines.
Type40 wrote: See I just don't want to see the rules flavor removed.
Unfortunately, this is necessary right now, at least if there is going to be anything left for anyone else flavorwise. The game does not have infinite capacity for expansion, so there is a finite amount of "things which can be done" to give an army a unique identity. SW and BT especially are autocannibalizing each other. Which army has "Abhor the Witch!" as a battlecry? BT Which army got the anti-Psyker unit? SW Which army is known for their righteous godly fury? BT Which army gets rules to represent righteous fury? SW Which army is famous for grit and fighting through pain? SW. Which army gets more of the FNP style rule? BT.
See I disagree.
I agree the game doesn't have infinite capacity for expansion... the solution is to stop expanding.
SWs do not need expansion, SMs do not need expansion... the solution is to stop focusing on the power armor factions not too remove one... removing one doesnt leave more room for future expansion, the expansion has already happened. Putting in more work to remove an unique subfaction that has been a flavour twist/divergent from mainline marines in different capacities since 2nd edition is not going to solve the fact that GW is only focusing on power/armor and primaris marines... What solves the problem is to just leave the power armor alone and start giving attention to everyone else...
Removing stuff doesn't fix anything.
Let the SWs and marines feel like craftworlds for a while, leave em alone, give them some slow minor updates for a year or two. tweak them later when necissary... why remove what's already there ? that feels like more work, they ll have to figure out what to do with all the rules for the current unique kits that exist, they arn't just going to throw those kits out. Even if that means replacing the SW datasheets with generic marine ones,,, that is extra work for the design team... Leave it alone for a long while and stop expanding them...
The problem with "stopping focus" is that it simply can't work. GWhas to update Space Marines - and reasonably so, they're the most popular faction - but if you leave the rest of the Space Marines (e.g SW/BA/whomever) unupdated, you end up with pretty extreme feelbads [e.g. black templars end up better than wolves]. So GW has to update ALL of the Space Marines at once. GW can't just shout "STASIS BOMB" and never update Marines again. The process of these updates consumes a gakload of GW's time - both in terms of actual time and energy of the workers, and in terms of the time and energy building and creating new model kits and the limited amount of release slots in a year. Perhaps they could have before Primaris, but now the genie is out of the bottle, and they've got a whole second Space Marine range to finish up and release.
There are 52 release slots in a year, provided GW releases something every Saturday...
honestly, the backlash from pausing updates v.s. squating the unique rules ...
If the argument is the extreme "feelbads" is why they have to update all the marine factions at once... your solution is 100% the wrong one compared to, you know, focusing on other factions for a while... Sure the marine players will complain that everyone else is getting kits... but they had their turn...
v.s. the backlash of telling people "oh,,, your stuff is simply a clone of this other faction now and everything that made your faction unique ruleswise is no longer existence anymore,,, btw this is to stop you from feeling bad that a few other similar factions are better then yours when they get updated before you."
Honestly, if we ant to use that logic... why bother having multiple factions at all (i know this is extreme, but really, removing a sub faction is not going to solve people being upset that their faction isn't "as good" it would make people so much more upset... Imagine telling that to xenos faction... "we know you are upset marines are so good, soooo, now your just going to be a clone of them."
I know the argument is that wolves "arn't different enough." well, if that's the case they don't take a lot of effort to maintain compared to the completely different factions and as a SWs player, I will 100% prefer to wait my turn then to just have the rules squatted completely... 100% I think the non-power armor factions need attention and need it now,,, in fact they needed it 6 months ago. But squating SW rules is not going to fix the attention that is on SMs. I don't even want the SM releases, let me have my unique stuff, stop releasing vanilla marines that I don't want, and let me play with my faction. Then when its the SW turn, put a little time into tweaking them, shouldn't take to long because 60% of their stuff will get tweaked with SM tweaks...
The problem is 100% too much attention on power armor, so lets focus on solving that...
Squatting a faction because people feel bad they have to wait their turn is definitely not the way to make the "feelbads" go away XD. That is how you make the feelbads 1000% worse.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
catbarf wrote: Should you be able to build glass hammer Necrons that don't actually feel 'Necron' in any meaningful way, and can do the glass hammer thing in exactly the same way as DE? I'd argue no. If each of the different factions doesn't convey a distinct feel and distinct specialization- even while having the ability to build into a variety of archetypes that leverage that specialization in different ways- then what's the point of having different factions?
I don't think we are miles apart.
I guess my issue is that if say "Tau melee" was "bad for its points" (or at least worse than "fighty factions") - then the reality is it will never get used. Which makes it a dead unit, and bad game design. It doesn't necessarily have to be "Khorne Berzerker 2.0" - it can be different - but it shouldn't be objectively *bad*.
I mean to go with the example - Tomb Blades exist. Nothing stops you bringing 27 of them if you want, making up about 40%~ of a 2k points army.
They are tougher than say Eldar bikes (base stats and rules) - and not quite as fast. But the combination is still reasonable in itself.
Is this fluffy/not fluffy?
I guess my point is Necron's "core identity" - is in RP, Living Metal and the various empowerment synergies. I.E. their core rules, semi-regardless of what units they take.
Theoretically Dark Eldar's "core identity" should be in Power From Pain. But it isn't really, its in transport/vehicle/talos spam (and the artificial PA Wrack synergy etc.) Which fair enough, is just because DE are done badly - but I'm trying to show the point. Tau's identity is not meant to be codex triptide and shield drone.
