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7th (7.5) they had some success before they were power creeped by ynnari and daemonic incursion quit palying after ynnari in 7th because in all honesty the game had become a joke. 8th comes and during index time (before armies had any function rules or stratagems) they did pretty well for a few months until other amries started getting rules and they floundered all the way to the bottom. Then they had dominating success at the end of the edition after getting essentially their 9th eddition codex early. Revisionist historians man...scum of the earth.
I've disproved this myth several times already but you like to keep stating it. Is the hope that if you tell a lie often enough people won't question the veracity of it?
At no point, literally NO POINT were SM's bottom tier in 8th. Literally NEVER. In 7th they were NEVER bottom tier.
This again goes back to my statement, if SM's aren't top tier you just assume you are bottom tier garbage and can never win. You also used biased stats like W/L rate at tournaments to justify this statement...completely ignoring top finishes. "Mehreens only had a 40% win rate at LVO!" you guys placed in the top 8 though. "That doesn't count because they are an outlier" Absolute cognitive dissonance. You scream SM are bottom tier while you have dudes finishing at the hardest tournament in the game in the top 8.
You want to see Bottom tier? Go back to 7th and try winning against SM, Eldar, Tau, Crons, admech, Nidz (only flying circus for nids) as an ork or DE player.
That statement about TS primary was to help people find the choas armies I was talking about in 40k stats. No other reason. TS have a great win rate in 8th when you consider all choas armies that include them in their army. You could say the same thing about blood angels too I suppose or custodians. If you seriously don't think marine players don't know what it's like to be bottom tier you live in an alternate reality. The have been bottom tier in literally every eddition of 40k since 4th eddition.
7th (7.5) they had some success before they were power creeped by ynnari and daemonic incursion quit palying after ynnari in 7th because in all honesty the game had become a joke. 8th comes and during index time (before armies had any function rules or stratagems) they did pretty well for a few months until other amries started getting rules and they floundered all the way to the bottom. Then they had dominating success at the end of the edition after getting essentially their 9th eddition codex early. Revisionist historians man...scum of the earth.
Why do you insist of not counting index era as a legitimate period of time? Marines were top tier then.
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
That statement about TS primary was to help people find the choas armies I was talking about in 40k stats. No other reason. TS have a great win rate in 8th when you consider all choas armies that include them in their army. You could say the same thing about blood angels too I suppose or custodians. If you seriously don't think marine players don't know what it's like to be bottom tier you live in an alternate reality. The have been bottom tier in literally every eddition of 40k since 4th eddition.
7th (7.5) they had some success before they were power creeped by ynnari and daemonic incursion quit palying after ynnari in 7th because in all honesty the game had become a joke. 8th comes and during index time (before armies had any function rules or stratagems) they did pretty well for a few months until other amries started getting rules and they floundered all the way to the bottom. Then they had dominating success at the end of the edition after getting essentially their 9th eddition codex early. Revisionist historians man...scum of the earth.
Why do you insist of not counting index era as a legitimate period of time? Marines were top tier then.
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
Because why?
Did people not play in it?
Were no tournaments held?
Or are you just arbitrarily discluding it because it makes your argument weaker?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
We called them sisters of battle back then. Essentially an unsupported army. Did they even have a codex honestly dont remember.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
That seems like an odd take, considering it took what, 1 and a half year, basically half of the entire editions runtime, before everyone got their Codex. Just in time for muhreens to get their second one of course.
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
LMAO, who cares about that first 18 months of 8th edition where not everyone had a codex, that doesn't count.
It wasn't 18 months. It was like 4-6.
Once imperial guard and eldar came out. Marines were out of the game essentially. What's funny is index orks and index sisters out performed marines after this point lol.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
LMAO, who cares about that first 18 months of 8th edition where not everyone had a codex, that doesn't count.
It wasn't 18 months. It was like 4-6.
Once imperial guard and eldar came out. Marines were out of the game essentially. What's funny is index orks and index sisters out performed marines after this point lol.
Show the evidence. Show your work.
And here's the rub-let's say you're able to find a dozen top-level tournaments where Marines get handily crushed and their highest ranking was 50/200 or so. Does that mean that it's okay for Marines to be OP now, because they sucked before? Even accepting the "they sucked before" as true, that doesn't follow to "So they should be OP now."
Before you say "They're not OP!" one of their basic troops choices, which is a generalist unit, outfights Orks and Genestealers, and outshoots Tau.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
That seems like an odd take, considering it took what, 1 and a half year, basically half of the entire editions runtime, before everyone got their Codex. Just in time for muhreens to get their second one of course.
Simplistic way to look at it. At what point did most armies in competitive play enter with a codex army? That is the end of index hammer and the beginning of codex hammer 8th edition. I think it was about the time of the first chapter approved. The game changed so much in this time - there is no reason to even look at results before this. First turn deep strike is such a huge change too. It's why I mentioned the first chapter approved.
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
LMAO, who cares about that first 18 months of 8th edition where not everyone had a codex, that doesn't count.
It wasn't 18 months. It was like 4-6.
Once imperial guard and eldar came out. Marines were out of the game essentially. What's funny is index orks and index sisters out performed marines after this point lol.
Show the evidence. Show your work.
And here's the rub-let's say you're able to find a dozen top-level tournaments where Marines get handily crushed and their highest ranking was 50/200 or so. Does that mean that it's okay for Marines to be OP now, because they sucked before? Even accepting the "they sucked before" as true, that doesn't follow to "So they should be OP now."
Before you say "They're not OP!" one of their basic troops choices, which is a generalist unit, outfights Orks and Genestealers, and outshoots Tau.
Does it matter if my 100 point intercessors outshoot your 90 point firewarriors if...your 250 point broadsides are immune to my intercessors and remove intercessors with trival ease? This argument is so easily countered by custodian gaurd. The gaurd shoot pretty even with them against each other. In melee its a joke. They wipe them out. Per point. Space marines should be beating troops. They pay extra to do that - with the risk that you might not have any troops or have more elite troops.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/29 19:44:10
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
LMAO, who cares about that first 18 months of 8th edition where not everyone had a codex, that doesn't count.
It wasn't 18 months. It was like 4-6. Once imperial guard and eldar came out. Marines were out of the game essentially. What's funny is index orks and index sisters out performed marines after this point lol.
Space Marine Codex #1 Release date: July 2017 Orkz Codex Release Date: November 2018 GSC: February 2019 SoB: November 2019
So when you say it was 4-6 months you are ....lying. SoB took 2 years after release to get their codex. Hell, SM got their 2nd codex before SoB got their codex. Also, 4-6 months would be October 2017 to December 2017 and by that point the only factions with a codex were:
Adeptus Mechanicus Astra Militarum Craftworlds Grey Knights Tyranids Blood Angels Chaos Space Marines Dark Angels Death Guard Space Marines
So Nidz, Eldar, Mechanicus and Imperial Guard plus 6 flavors of Power armor. You had Several major factions like Necrons, Space Wolves, Tau, DE, Orkz without a codex for significantly longer
Also, Codex SM wasn't worse than Index Orkz/Sob no matter how you want to slice it. Your girlyman gunline which you don't count for some reason was winning tournaments all the way up until Codex 2.0 came out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 19:48:28
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
That seems like an odd take, considering it took what, 1 and a half year, basically half of the entire editions runtime, before everyone got their Codex. Just in time for muhreens to get their second one of course.
Simplistic way to look at it. At what point did most armies in competitive play enter with a codex army? That is the end of index hammer and the beginning of codex hammer 8th edition. I think it was about the time of the first chapter approved. The game changed so much in this time - there is no reason to even look at results before this. First turn deep strike is such a huge change too. It's why I mentioned the first chapter approved.
Yes I wonder why competitive play was dominated by armies with a codex, such a mystery. Even then Marines did not compare unfavourably to at least half the field. Your assertion marines were trash for most of 8th is unfounded.
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
That seems like an odd take, considering it took what, 1 and a half year, basically half of the entire editions runtime, before everyone got their Codex. Just in time for muhreens to get their second one of course.
Simplistic way to look at it. At what point did most armies in competitive play enter with a codex army? That is the end of index hammer and the beginning of codex hammer 8th edition. I think it was about the time of the first chapter approved. The game changed so much in this time - there is no reason to even look at results before this. First turn deep strike is such a huge change too. It's why I mentioned the first chapter approved.
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
LMAO, who cares about that first 18 months of 8th edition where not everyone had a codex, that doesn't count.
It wasn't 18 months. It was like 4-6.
Once imperial guard and eldar came out. Marines were out of the game essentially. What's funny is index orks and index sisters out performed marines after this point lol.
Show the evidence. Show your work.
And here's the rub-let's say you're able to find a dozen top-level tournaments where Marines get handily crushed and their highest ranking was 50/200 or so. Does that mean that it's okay for Marines to be OP now, because they sucked before? Even accepting the "they sucked before" as true, that doesn't follow to "So they should be OP now."
Before you say "They're not OP!" one of their basic troops choices, which is a generalist unit, outfights Orks and Genestealers, and outshoots Tau.
Does it matter if my 100 point intercessors outshoot your 90 point firewarriors if...your 250 point broadsides are immune to my intercessors and remove intercessors with trival ease? This argument is so easily countered by custodian gaurd. The gaurd shoot pretty even with them against each other. In melee its a joke. They wipe them out. Per point.
Gasp shock and horror! An artillery heavy support unit can wipe out a generalist troop unit? Say it ain't so! It's certainly not like you could deep strike turn one and melt them with Multi-Meltas to the face! Or use obscuring terrain to avoid taking anything but 4 S5 AP-1 D1 shots hitting on a 4+ from each 100+ point Broadside!
Not to mention, you cap at 9 Broadsides, for over 1,000 points. By all means, put at least half your points in nine T5 W6 2+ baskets. There's certainly no weapons that Marines have that can pop them without too much difficulty.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
ITT 'my basic generalist unit beating every other basic generalist unit (and many specialist units, for that matter) is fine because dedicated anti-MEQ specialists can beat it'
Anyone remember back when Xeno was complaining that Guard were underpriced and beat the crap out of Intercessors point-for-point? Someone should have informed him that his complaint was invalid because Aggressors exist.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/29 20:05:52
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
LMAO, who cares about that first 18 months of 8th edition where not everyone had a codex, that doesn't count.
It wasn't 18 months. It was like 4-6.
Once imperial guard and eldar came out. Marines were out of the game essentially. What's funny is index orks and index sisters out performed marines after this point lol.
Space Marine Codex #1 Release date: July 2017
Orkz Codex Release Date: November 2018
GSC: February 2019
SoB: November 2019
So when you say it was 4-6 months you are ....lying. SoB took 2 years after release to get their codex. Hell, SM got their 2nd codex before SoB got their codex. Also, 4-6 months would be October 2017 to December 2017 and by that point the only factions with a codex were:
Adeptus Mechanicus
Astra Militarum
Craftworlds
Grey Knights
Tyranids
Blood Angels
Chaos Space Marines
Dark Angels
Death Guard
Space Marines
So Nidz, Eldar, Mechanicus and Imperial Guard plus 6 flavors of Power armor. You had Several major factions like Necrons, Space Wolves, Tau, DE, Orkz without a codex for significantly longer
Also, Codex SM wasn't worse than Index Orkz/Sob no matter how you want to slice it. Your girlyman gunline which you don't count for some reason was winning tournaments all the way up until Codex 2.0 came out.
Incorrect - SOB index had higher winrate than all marine factions. Especially after the first few months of the edition shook out.
Tau probably were better before their codex came out. Rule of 3 hurt them more than any other rules they got in their codex. Same with nids. Space wolves? Who cares...they are just another marine faction doing poorly - like they all were. Orks once they got their codex were great. Still outperforming marines with their own index. 40 stats is down right now or I'd show you exactly by time period. GK/SM/SW/DA - consistently below 45% WR for over 2 years. It is the bottom of the barrel dude!
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
You also haven't answered the rather important question of "Even if they sucked before, why should they be OP now?"
You really think that someone playing pre codex BA, DA, SW or GK cared that early 8th ultramarines lists were winning? You know when players of those armies cared about those wins? When GW decided to nerf BA/DA/SW/GK, because vehicles spam armies with re-rolls, those armies didn't have, were too good. Or when rules of 3 was made thing, for everyone because of hive tyrants and tau commanders. Or when GW was telling that psychic powers were too powerful, gave GK nerf psychic mechanics only to put out powerful psychic options for eldar, chaos and other armies just right after they released codex GK.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
You also haven't answered the rather important question of "Even if they sucked before, why should they be OP now?"
You really think that someone playing pre codex BA, DA, SW or GK cared that early 8th ultramarines lists were winning? You know when players of those armies cared about those wins? When GW decided to nerf BA/DA/SW/GK, because vehicles spam armies with re-rolls, those armies didn't have, were too good. Or when rules of 3 was made thing, for everyone because of hive tyrants and tau commanders. Or when GW was telling that psychic powers were too powerful, gave GK nerf psychic mechanics only to put out powerful psychic options for eldar, chaos and other armies just right after they released codex GK.
Find me a Chaos list that won with, say, Word Bearers. Or World Eaters.
Or pure Daemons.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
catbarf wrote: ITT 'my basic generalist unit beating every other basic generalist unit (and many specialist units, for that matter) is fine because dedicated anti-MEQ specialists can beat it'
Anyone remember back when Xeno was complaining that Guard were underpriced and beat the crap out of Intercessors point-for-point? Someone should have informed him that his complaint was invalid because Aggressors exist.
Theres that word basic and also generalist.
Basic troops dont cost 20 PPM compared to the average 7-9. Generalist aren't specialist anti infantry units like intercessors. Fire warriors are a support unit. Space marine are shock troops. Stop trying to break it down to being more simple than it is while simultaneously getting these units roles. The reason marines have sucked forever is because they have paid too much for stats they cant use. Decent melee with no real way to make melee. Decent toughness that is completely ignored by heavy weapons. That is a huge risk putting points into those stats with very little gains capable because they don't deal a lot of damage. You can't expect units like this "full price" for everything.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
catbarf wrote: ITT 'my basic generalist unit beating every other basic generalist unit (and many specialist units, for that matter) is fine because dedicated anti-MEQ specialists can beat it'
Anyone remember back when Xeno was complaining that Guard were underpriced and beat the crap out of Intercessors point-for-point? Someone should have informed him that his complaint was invalid because Aggressors exist.
Theres that word basic and also generalist.
Basic troops dont cost 20 PPM compared to the average 7-9. Generalist aren't specialist anti infantry units like intercessors. Fire warriors are a support unit. Space marine are shock troops. Stop trying to break it down to being more simple than it is while simultaneously getting these units roles. The reason marines have sucked forever is because they have paid too much for stats they cant use. Decent melee with no real way to make melee. Decent toughness that is completely ignored by heavy weapons. That is a huge risk putting points into those stats with very little gains capable because they don't deal a lot of damage. You can't expect units like this "full price" for everything.
Simple question, Xeno.
Should Intercessors be better at shooting than Fire Warriors? Should they be better at fighting than Ork Boys or Genestealers? This is point for point, not model to model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 20:27:55
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
That seems like an odd take, considering it took what, 1 and a half year, basically half of the entire editions runtime, before everyone got their Codex. Just in time for muhreens to get their second one of course.
Simplistic way to look at it. At what point did most armies in competitive play enter with a codex army? That is the end of index hammer and the beginning of codex hammer 8th edition. I think it was about the time of the first chapter approved. The game changed so much in this time - there is no reason to even look at results before this. First turn deep strike is such a huge change too. It's why I mentioned the first chapter approved.
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
LMAO, who cares about that first 18 months of 8th edition where not everyone had a codex, that doesn't count.
It wasn't 18 months. It was like 4-6.
Once imperial guard and eldar came out. Marines were out of the game essentially. What's funny is index orks and index sisters out performed marines after this point lol.
Show the evidence. Show your work.
And here's the rub-let's say you're able to find a dozen top-level tournaments where Marines get handily crushed and their highest ranking was 50/200 or so. Does that mean that it's okay for Marines to be OP now, because they sucked before? Even accepting the "they sucked before" as true, that doesn't follow to "So they should be OP now."
Before you say "They're not OP!" one of their basic troops choices, which is a generalist unit, outfights Orks and Genestealers, and outshoots Tau.
Does it matter if my 100 point intercessors outshoot your 90 point firewarriors if...your 250 point broadsides are immune to my intercessors and remove intercessors with trival ease? This argument is so easily countered by custodian gaurd. The gaurd shoot pretty even with them against each other. In melee its a joke. They wipe them out. Per point.
Gasp shock and horror! An artillery heavy support unit can wipe out a generalist troop unit? Say it ain't so! It's certainly not like you could deep strike turn one and melt them with Multi-Meltas to the face! Or use obscuring terrain to avoid taking anything but 4 S5 AP-1 D1 shots hitting on a 4+ from each 100+ point Broadside!
Not to mention, you cap at 9 Broadsides, for over 1,000 points. By all means, put at least half your points in nine T5 W6 2+ baskets. There's certainly no weapons that Marines have that can pop them without too much difficulty.
That's not the point. That heavy support units kills marines like they are gaurdsmen. But you still pay 3x more for a marine. Seriously you are trolling if you can not acknowledge this.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
JNAProductions wrote: Find me a Chaos list that won with, say, Word Bearers. Or World Eaters.
Or pure Daemons.
Wait why are suddenly using my side of the argument and claim that WB or WE are somehow different from AL or The Ahriman soup. the ahriman soup aside for ahrimans and the sorcs consisted essentialy of demons. And those monster mash or Ahriman list were winning.
If a BA "army" that consited mostly of IG and a castellan is to be considered an army for all marines, according to people like you, then telling me that I somehow have to prove that WB are different from other chaos stuff is a strange one. Either different factions are different, or no factions are. So either I am wrong, or your demons had a good army, you just should have used more tzeench ones and more ahrimans&csmDPs.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
JNAProductions wrote: Find me a Chaos list that won with, say, Word Bearers. Or World Eaters.
Or pure Daemons.
Wait why are suddenly using my side of the argument and claim that WB or WE are somehow different from AL or The Ahriman soup. the ahriman soup aside for ahrimans and the sorcs consisted essentialy of demons. And those monster mash or Ahriman list were winning.
If a BA "army" that consited mostly of IG and a castellan is to be considered an army for all marines, according to people like you, then telling me that I somehow have to prove that WB are different from other chaos stuff is a strange one. Either different factions are different, or no factions are. So either I am wrong, or your demons had a good army, you just should have used more tzeench ones and more ahrimans&csmDPs.
That was not a BA army, no matter what anyone says.
Quasistellar wrote: They can't do a carpet of bodies. Pretty much everything else they can do to some extent well, but just maybe not as well as other armies.
Again, what's considered a horde?
Marines can field 90+ bodies in a 2k list.
They can field 60+ and still have plenty of room for toys.
I'd agree that it's not the most optimal way to play them, but that's not so much because they CAN'T horde, and more because their other options are better. Hell, this top-placing Ork list only had about 100 bodies, and they were not NEARLY as durable as Space Marine bodies.
I said carpet of bodies.
Compare the number of models Orks or Nids can take to the number that Space marines can take. One will be significantly higher than the other.
Call me when Marines can field 300+ bodies at 2k.
If you simply go by # of wounds, that's different altogether. Quantity (of models) has a quality all its own, and all that.
I'm not saying that having a carpet of bodies is always good, but it's a thing that can and has been done, and Marines can't.
catbarf wrote: ITT 'my basic generalist unit beating every other basic generalist unit (and many specialist units, for that matter) is fine because dedicated anti-MEQ specialists can beat it'
Anyone remember back when Xeno was complaining that Guard were underpriced and beat the crap out of Intercessors point-for-point? Someone should have informed him that his complaint was invalid because Aggressors exist.
Theres that word basic and also generalist.
Basic troops dont cost 20 PPM compared to the average 7-9. Generalist aren't specialist anti infantry units like intercessors. Fire warriors are a support unit. Space marine are shock troops. Stop trying to break it down to being more simple than it is while simultaneously getting these units roles. The reason marines have sucked forever is because they have paid too much for stats they cant use. Decent melee with no real way to make melee. Decent toughness that is completely ignored by heavy weapons. That is a huge risk putting points into those stats with very little gains capable because they don't deal a lot of damage. You can't expect units like this "full price" for everything.
Simple question, Xeno.
Should Intercessors be better at shooting than Fire Warriors?
Should they be better at fighting than Ork Boys or Genestealers?
This is point for point, not model to model.
Well they don't do ether of those things. Both those units are just bad vs units with good armor saves. You have to evaluate their shooting vs the same target with different profiles. Plus - a certain value of a unit is just existing. The less total points you spend on a unit means the less points they are putting into points that deal damage.
Example. Unit A cost half as much as unit B and shoots half as good.
You have 2 units A's each on an objective vs 1 unit B on 1 objective.
Tell me...How will unit B ever win? Especially when Unit B has to use melee to get any advantage...and is therefore...losing 2 objectives to 0 or 1 to 0 at best case?
Unit B needs to shoot better and melee better than unit A because unit A can only be in 1 place at a time just like all units and you have half as many of them .
Intercessors do pretty well against any type of infantry.
Chaff infantry out damage intercessors vs other chaff infantry though. Pretty much across the board.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/29 20:51:36
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
That seems like an odd take, considering it took what, 1 and a half year, basically half of the entire editions runtime, before everyone got their Codex. Just in time for muhreens to get their second one of course.
Simplistic way to look at it. At what point did most armies in competitive play enter with a codex army? That is the end of index hammer and the beginning of codex hammer 8th edition. I think it was about the time of the first chapter approved. The game changed so much in this time - there is no reason to even look at results before this. First turn deep strike is such a huge change too. It's why I mentioned the first chapter approved.
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
LMAO, who cares about that first 18 months of 8th edition where not everyone had a codex, that doesn't count.
It wasn't 18 months. It was like 4-6.
Once imperial guard and eldar came out. Marines were out of the game essentially. What's funny is index orks and index sisters out performed marines after this point lol.
Show the evidence. Show your work.
And here's the rub-let's say you're able to find a dozen top-level tournaments where Marines get handily crushed and their highest ranking was 50/200 or so. Does that mean that it's okay for Marines to be OP now, because they sucked before? Even accepting the "they sucked before" as true, that doesn't follow to "So they should be OP now."
Before you say "They're not OP!" one of their basic troops choices, which is a generalist unit, outfights Orks and Genestealers, and outshoots Tau.
Does it matter if my 100 point intercessors outshoot your 90 point firewarriors if...your 250 point broadsides are immune to my intercessors and remove intercessors with trival ease? This argument is so easily countered by custodian gaurd. The gaurd shoot pretty even with them against each other. In melee its a joke. They wipe them out. Per point.
Gasp shock and horror! An artillery heavy support unit can wipe out a generalist troop unit? Say it ain't so! It's certainly not like you could deep strike turn one and melt them with Multi-Meltas to the face! Or use obscuring terrain to avoid taking anything but 4 S5 AP-1 D1 shots hitting on a 4+ from each 100+ point Broadside!
Not to mention, you cap at 9 Broadsides, for over 1,000 points. By all means, put at least half your points in nine T5 W6 2+ baskets. There's certainly no weapons that Marines have that can pop them without too much difficulty.
That's not the point. That heavy support units kills marines like they are gaurdsmen. But you still pay 3x more for a marine. Seriously you are trolling if you can not acknowledge this.
So, each Broadside kills, with 8 S7 AP-2 Dd3 shots and 4 S5 AP-1 D1 shots...
About four and a half GEQ in one turn.
...or...
One and four fifths MEQ.
The MEQ do bleed points faster (about 70 points of Intercessors compared to only 22.5 points of GEQ) but against, say, Fire Warriors, they die at exactly the same rate in points. Unless cover gets involved-that favors the Marines by a large margin.
catbarf wrote: ITT 'my basic generalist unit beating every other basic generalist unit (and many specialist units, for that matter) is fine because dedicated anti-MEQ specialists can beat it'
Anyone remember back when Xeno was complaining that Guard were underpriced and beat the crap out of Intercessors point-for-point? Someone should have informed him that his complaint was invalid because Aggressors exist.
Theres that word basic and also generalist.
Basic troops dont cost 20 PPM compared to the average 7-9. Generalist aren't specialist anti infantry units like intercessors. Fire warriors are a support unit. Space marine are shock troops. Stop trying to break it down to being more simple than it is while simultaneously getting these units roles. The reason marines have sucked forever is because they have paid too much for stats they cant use. Decent melee with no real way to make melee. Decent toughness that is completely ignored by heavy weapons. That is a huge risk putting points into those stats with very little gains capable because they don't deal a lot of damage. You can't expect units like this "full price" for everything.
Simple question, Xeno.
Should Intercessors be better at shooting than Fire Warriors?
Should they be better at fighting than Ork Boys or Genestealers?
This is point for point, not model to model.
Well they don't do ether of those things. Both those units are just bad vs units with good armor saves. You have to evaluate their shooting vs the same target with different profiles. Plus - a certain value of a unit is just existing. The less total points you spend on a unit means the less points they are putting into points that deal damage.
Example. Unit A cost half as much as unit B and shoots half as good.
You have 2 units A's each on an objective vs 1 unit B on 1 objective.
Tell me...How will unit B ever win? Especially when Unit B has to use melee to get any advantage...and is therefore...losing 2 objectives to 0 or 1 to 0 at best case?
Intercessors do pretty well against any type of infantry.
Chaff infantry out damage intercessors vs other chaff infantry though. Pretty much across the board.
Give me a unit to compare to. Go on-let me run the numbers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 20:51:43
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Quasistellar wrote: They can't do a carpet of bodies. Pretty much everything else they can do to some extent well, but just maybe not as well as other armies.
Again, what's considered a horde?
Marines can field 90+ bodies in a 2k list.
They can field 60+ and still have plenty of room for toys.
I'd agree that it's not the most optimal way to play them, but that's not so much because they CAN'T horde, and more because their other options are better. Hell, this top-placing Ork list only had about 100 bodies, and they were not NEARLY as durable as Space Marine bodies.
I said carpet of bodies.
Compare the number of models Orks or Nids can take to the number that Space marines can take. One will be significantly higher than the other.
Call me when Marines can field 300+ bodies at 2k.
If you simply go by # of wounds, that's different altogether. Quantity (of models) has a quality all its own, and all that.
I'm not saying that having a carpet of bodies is always good, but it's a thing that can and has been done, and Marines can't.
I'm not buying that an army has to consist of 300 bodies to be a horde.
Quasistellar wrote: They can't do a carpet of bodies. Pretty much everything else they can do to some extent well, but just maybe not as well as other armies.
Again, what's considered a horde?
Marines can field 90+ bodies in a 2k list.
They can field 60+ and still have plenty of room for toys.
I'd agree that it's not the most optimal way to play them, but that's not so much because they CAN'T horde, and more because their other options are better. Hell, this top-placing Ork list only had about 100 bodies, and they were not NEARLY as durable as Space Marine bodies.
I said carpet of bodies.
Compare the number of models Orks or Nids can take to the number that Space marines can take. One will be significantly higher than the other.
Call me when Marines can field 300+ bodies at 2k.
If you simply go by # of wounds, that's different altogether. Quantity (of models) has a quality all its own, and all that.
I'm not saying that having a carpet of bodies is always good, but it's a thing that can and has been done, and Marines can't.
I'm not buying that an army has to consist of 300 bodies to be a horde.
Yeah... That's 2,400 points of Ork Boys.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
That seems like an odd take, considering it took what, 1 and a half year, basically half of the entire editions runtime, before everyone got their Codex. Just in time for muhreens to get their second one of course.
Simplistic way to look at it. At what point did most armies in competitive play enter with a codex army? That is the end of index hammer and the beginning of codex hammer 8th edition. I think it was about the time of the first chapter approved. The game changed so much in this time - there is no reason to even look at results before this. First turn deep strike is such a huge change too. It's why I mentioned the first chapter approved.
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
LMAO, who cares about that first 18 months of 8th edition where not everyone had a codex, that doesn't count.
It wasn't 18 months. It was like 4-6.
Once imperial guard and eldar came out. Marines were out of the game essentially. What's funny is index orks and index sisters out performed marines after this point lol.
Show the evidence. Show your work.
And here's the rub-let's say you're able to find a dozen top-level tournaments where Marines get handily crushed and their highest ranking was 50/200 or so. Does that mean that it's okay for Marines to be OP now, because they sucked before? Even accepting the "they sucked before" as true, that doesn't follow to "So they should be OP now."
Before you say "They're not OP!" one of their basic troops choices, which is a generalist unit, outfights Orks and Genestealers, and outshoots Tau.
Does it matter if my 100 point intercessors outshoot your 90 point firewarriors if...your 250 point broadsides are immune to my intercessors and remove intercessors with trival ease? This argument is so easily countered by custodian gaurd. The gaurd shoot pretty even with them against each other. In melee its a joke. They wipe them out. Per point.
Gasp shock and horror! An artillery heavy support unit can wipe out a generalist troop unit? Say it ain't so! It's certainly not like you could deep strike turn one and melt them with Multi-Meltas to the face! Or use obscuring terrain to avoid taking anything but 4 S5 AP-1 D1 shots hitting on a 4+ from each 100+ point Broadside!
Not to mention, you cap at 9 Broadsides, for over 1,000 points. By all means, put at least half your points in nine T5 W6 2+ baskets. There's certainly no weapons that Marines have that can pop them without too much difficulty.
That's not the point. That heavy support units kills marines like they are gaurdsmen. But you still pay 3x more for a marine. Seriously you are trolling if you can not acknowledge this.
So, each Broadside kills, with 8 S7 AP-2 Dd3 shots and 4 S5 AP-1 D1 shots...
About four and a half GEQ in one turn.
...or...
One and four fifths MEQ.
The MEQ do bleed points faster (about 70 points of Intercessors compared to only 22.5 points of GEQ) but against, say, Fire Warriors, they die at exactly the same rate in points. Unless cover gets involved-that favors the Marines by a large margin.
catbarf wrote: ITT 'my basic generalist unit beating every other basic generalist unit (and many specialist units, for that matter) is fine because dedicated anti-MEQ specialists can beat it'
Anyone remember back when Xeno was complaining that Guard were underpriced and beat the crap out of Intercessors point-for-point? Someone should have informed him that his complaint was invalid because Aggressors exist.
Theres that word basic and also generalist.
Basic troops dont cost 20 PPM compared to the average 7-9. Generalist aren't specialist anti infantry units like intercessors. Fire warriors are a support unit. Space marine are shock troops. Stop trying to break it down to being more simple than it is while simultaneously getting these units roles. The reason marines have sucked forever is because they have paid too much for stats they cant use. Decent melee with no real way to make melee. Decent toughness that is completely ignored by heavy weapons. That is a huge risk putting points into those stats with very little gains capable because they don't deal a lot of damage. You can't expect units like this "full price" for everything.
Simple question, Xeno.
Should Intercessors be better at shooting than Fire Warriors?
Should they be better at fighting than Ork Boys or Genestealers?
This is point for point, not model to model.
Well they don't do ether of those things. Both those units are just bad vs units with good armor saves. You have to evaluate their shooting vs the same target with different profiles. Plus - a certain value of a unit is just existing. The less total points you spend on a unit means the less points they are putting into points that deal damage.
Example. Unit A cost half as much as unit B and shoots half as good.
You have 2 units A's each on an objective vs 1 unit B on 1 objective.
Tell me...How will unit B ever win? Especially when Unit B has to use melee to get any advantage...and is therefore...losing 2 objectives to 0 or 1 to 0 at best case?
Intercessors do pretty well against any type of infantry.
Chaff infantry out damage intercessors vs other chaff infantry though. Pretty much across the board.
Give me a unit to compare to. Go on-let me run the numbers.
Well and then special rules come into play and tau win this by a landslide. More to the point though. Those broadside also can kill tanks. That there is your generalist unit. It doesn't matter what it's shooting - it gets good returns. The intercessors on the other hand...only good against infantry. You want them to go even with infantry even though they bleed 3x the points against heavy shooting?
Quasistellar wrote: They can't do a carpet of bodies. Pretty much everything else they can do to some extent well, but just maybe not as well as other armies.
Again, what's considered a horde?
Marines can field 90+ bodies in a 2k list.
They can field 60+ and still have plenty of room for toys.
I'd agree that it's not the most optimal way to play them, but that's not so much because they CAN'T horde, and more because their other options are better. Hell, this top-placing Ork list only had about 100 bodies, and they were not NEARLY as durable as Space Marine bodies.
I said carpet of bodies.
Compare the number of models Orks or Nids can take to the number that Space marines can take. One will be significantly higher than the other.
Call me when Marines can field 300+ bodies at 2k.
If you simply go by # of wounds, that's different altogether. Quantity (of models) has a quality all its own, and all that.
I'm not saying that having a carpet of bodies is always good, but it's a thing that can and has been done, and Marines can't.
I'm not buying that an army has to consist of 300 bodies to be a horde.
It's semantics. A horde beats you by preventing you from moving and scoring objectives. Marines aren't really doing that. Too many points spent on being "killy".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/29 21:05:26
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