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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 13:11:39
Subject: Re:What Can Marines Not Do?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I guess at this exact stage in 9th edition when the only other codex besides Marines is Necrons, we could say Marines might be slightly overtuned.
And I do mean slightly. Let's please remember that the 9th edition keyword changes and mission structure has literally broken three full armies (Tau, Imperial Knights, and Chaos Knights) to make them just not work. The fly and point changes broke Tau. The primary and secondary objectives broke Knights.
We're basically back where we were at start of 8th -- the army with the codex is doing well overall, while other armies are also taking regular top 4 spots (daemons, DG, Harlequins, Orks, etc). Except this time, Marines seem to be able to take a variety of lists, whereas in 8th it was RG parking lots, so overall I'd say we're in a healthier spot.
I'd say we really only need to tweak a couple specific marine units (ERADICATORS lulz), and some of the other armies in a really bad spot probably just need their codex. I have to assume there's something in those codexes to justify the hardcore nerfs and/or point increases Tau, Drukhari, CWE, and Knights (oddly knights are well-off points wise but just can't win the objective game) got.
In summary, I'm saying that I don't think it's so much that Marines are overtuned, it's that they are tuned for 9th, while other factions haven't recieved that 9th edition boost yet.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/30 13:11:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2000/10/30 13:15:28
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The problem is that the game is never actually finished - there never will be a "9th edition completed". As soon as it looks completed, there's SM2.0, and/or there's Psychic Awakening 2: The Awakenenening. Then the words will be "wait for your 2nd codex" or "wait for your awkenenenening" book (I can't tell you how many times I heard this with Daemons, only to have the book be a disappointment in terms of amount of content). Then 10th will hit, and the first codex is SM, and as soon as the other factions are wrapping up, there's SM2, and Psychic Awakening 3: The Psychicening, and then 11th edition... the "wait and see so we can all be on a level playing field" doesn't ring true to people who have been "waiting and seeing" since the end of 5th...
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/30 13:16:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 13:30:28
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Its a bit "Space Marines 2.0 was tuned for 8.5 edition 40k".
I mean things change. I thought Castellan-Hammer would never end, even though it only lasted about 9-10 months. (Sorry Knight Players, but if Knights are never competitively viable again its no skin of my nose.)
The issue is Marines have now been at the top for the best part of a year and a half - and certainly in the next 6 months or so there isn't any indication that's going to change.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 15:01:55
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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jaredb wrote:In piggy backing on that point. I don't think it's fair to compare an 8th edition book to a 9th edition book.
Necrons and Space Marines both are so different than their 8th edition books, I don't think we'll be really playing true "9th edition" Until all the codex's get updated.
For better or for worse. I know it sucks to have to wait, especially for other armies. I play Ynnari and Harlequins, I have no idea when I'll be updated. Space Marines will always have a lot of datatsheets, that's just what it is. But, I think the discussion on power level and capabilities will be very different when more books get updated.
Except even at 1 codex per month that will leave people without a 9th edition codex untill 2022
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 15:18:29
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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CEO Kasen wrote:Testy and irrational stuff in defense of Marines winds up self-fulfilling the prophecies by making it very difficult to keep the fury correctly laser-focused on GW, and winds up with people really, really wanting to attack Marine players. Some of them do, and then the Marine players say "You just hate marines!" And the cycle devolves.
Nah but they really just hate marines. They can't acknowledge the fact marines have been bad for most the history of the game. They overstate periods when marines were actually good. So if they can't be honest about these periods - there is no way to have a real discussion about how bad the situation is now. Generally - the level marines are at right now is not even close to unprecedented.
Nothing even comes close to invis death stars or scatter bikes or wraith knights. There are a few mispointed options in the marine and generally they don't have a lot of bad options. Nothing they put out is unbeatable though. Your standard eldar shinning spear unit with a 2++ save will murder everything in the marine arsenal.
Things marines can not do.
Automatically assault your back line with a psychic power out of range for you to deny. (Quicken/Shinning spears.)
They can't destroy your heavy tank with mortal wounds in the shooting phase. (Harliqens)
They can't 1 shot a warlord titan with a single weapon for under 100 points. ( SAG)
Just a few more examples.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tyel wrote:Its a bit "Space Marines 2.0 was tuned for 8.5 edition 40k".
I mean things change. I thought Castellan-Hammer would never end, even though it only lasted about 9-10 months. (Sorry Knight Players, but if Knights are never competitively viable again its no skin of my nose.)
The issue is Marines have now been at the top for the best part of a year and a half - and certainly in the next 6 months or so there isn't any indication that's going to change. LOL a year and a half. Funny. Hilarious actually.
Ironhands supplement is when marine power started. Dev doctrine nerfed within 3 months of that. Chaplain dreads moved to legends...Ever aspect of that list nerfed to oblivion. Assault cents nerfed to oblivion...tell me...what aspect of those lists which did well still exists? NONE of it does. Dev doctrine is only turn 1 and in 9th you don't even have targets to shoot anymore. It is literally just these new things which are OP now - Changes to MM (basic math shows it's out of line - will be nerfed) Eradicators - obviously will be nerfed.
It's also hilarious you don't aknowledge no one has been playing the game for the past 9 months lol. Automatically Appended Next Post: Ice_can wrote: jaredb wrote:In piggy backing on that point. I don't think it's fair to compare an 8th edition book to a 9th edition book.
Necrons and Space Marines both are so different than their 8th edition books, I don't think we'll be really playing true "9th edition" Until all the codex's get updated.
For better or for worse. I know it sucks to have to wait, especially for other armies. I play Ynnari and Harlequins, I have no idea when I'll be updated. Space Marines will always have a lot of datatsheets, that's just what it is. But, I think the discussion on power level and capabilities will be very different when more books get updated.
Except even at 1 codex per month that will leave people without a 9th edition codex untill 2022
Here is something worthy of complaint. Why can't we get all the rules at ones?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/30 15:31:57
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 15:41:31
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Xenomancers wrote:Things marines can not do.
Automatically assault your back line with a psychic power out of range for you to deny. (Quicken/Shinning spears.)
They can't destroy your heavy tank with mortal wounds in the shooting phase. (Harliqens)
They can't 1 shot a warlord titan with a single weapon for under 100 points. ( SAG)
Just a few more examples.
Shining Spears have a 16" move. 22" with advance, though they lack native Advance and Charge. Quicken is also tied to a T3 W2 4++ Warlock. T4 W3 if you spring for a bike. Eliminators would eat those guys for breakfast. And, if they DO manage to charge something (which is pretty likely, if they get first turn and successfully cast Quickening) then for 320 points on the Spears alone, they kill 8-9 MEQ. If you have an Apothecary nearby, that drops to 6 or less MEQ dead.
That's true-Harlequins have access to Haywire, which is something Marines lack. But are you saying that Marines struggle to kill vehicles? With Eradicators, Devastators, and the plethora of other units?
And it should be noted, if Battlescribe is correct, the SAG is 120 points. Even if you go for the SSAG (which is no longer tournament legal, but sure, let's do it) and double shoot with it, for 4d6 shots, you get an average of five and a half hits. If every hit wounded and every save was failed and an 11 or 12 was rolled for Strength, that's around enough to one-shot a Dominous Knight. Of course, the odds of all that happening are minuscule.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 15:44:25
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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JNAProductions wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Things marines can not do.
Automatically assault your back line with a psychic power out of range for you to deny. (Quicken/Shinning spears.)
They can't destroy your heavy tank with mortal wounds in the shooting phase. (Harliqens)
They can't 1 shot a warlord titan with a single weapon for under 100 points. ( SAG)
Just a few more examples.
Shining Spears have a 16" move. 22" with advance, though they lack native Advance and Charge. Quicken is also tied to a T3 W2 4++ Warlock. T4 W3 if you spring for a bike. Eliminators would eat those guys for breakfast. And, if they DO manage to charge something (which is pretty likely, if they get first turn and successfully cast Quickening) then for 320 points on the Spears alone, they kill 8-9 MEQ. If you have an Apothecary nearby, that drops to 6 or less MEQ dead.
That's true-Harlequins have access to Haywire, which is something Marines lack. But are you saying that Marines struggle to kill vehicles? With Eradicators, Devastators, and the plethora of other units?
And it should be noted, if Battlescribe is correct, the SAG is 120 points. Even if you go for the SSAG (which is no longer tournament legal, but sure, let's do it) and double shoot with it, for 4d6 shots, you get an average of five and a half hits. If every hit wounded and every save was failed and an 11 or 12 was rolled for Strength, that's around enough to one-shot a Dominous Knight. Of course, the odds of all that happening are minuscule.
Always with the odds and never about potential. Just something being possible is enough to ruin a plan or lose you a game with some good/bad luck. In any case - just stating things marines can't do.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 15:51:05
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Xenomancers wrote: JNAProductions wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Things marines can not do.
Automatically assault your back line with a psychic power out of range for you to deny. (Quicken/Shinning spears.)
They can't destroy your heavy tank with mortal wounds in the shooting phase. (Harliqens)
They can't 1 shot a warlord titan with a single weapon for under 100 points. ( SAG)
Just a few more examples.
Shining Spears have a 16" move. 22" with advance, though they lack native Advance and Charge. Quicken is also tied to a T3 W2 4++ Warlock. T4 W3 if you spring for a bike. Eliminators would eat those guys for breakfast. And, if they DO manage to charge something (which is pretty likely, if they get first turn and successfully cast Quickening) then for 320 points on the Spears alone, they kill 8-9 MEQ. If you have an Apothecary nearby, that drops to 6 or less MEQ dead.
That's true-Harlequins have access to Haywire, which is something Marines lack. But are you saying that Marines struggle to kill vehicles? With Eradicators, Devastators, and the plethora of other units?
And it should be noted, if Battlescribe is correct, the SAG is 120 points. Even if you go for the SSAG (which is no longer tournament legal, but sure, let's do it) and double shoot with it, for 4d6 shots, you get an average of five and a half hits. If every hit wounded and every save was failed and an 11 or 12 was rolled for Strength, that's around enough to one-shot a Dominous Knight. Of course, the odds of all that happening are minuscule.
Always with the odds and never about potential. Just something being possible is enough to ruin a plan or lose you a game with some good/bad luck. In any case - just stating things marines can't do.
3 Eradicators are 120 points. 140 with a MultiMelta and Heavy Meltas.
They can do 72 damage to a single unit.
MultiMelta Devs with a Cherub can do 80 damage in a phase.
MultiMelta Devastators can take an armorium cherub for 10 shots total. That's 80 damage if they get lucky.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 15:57:56
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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JNAProductions wrote: Xenomancers wrote: JNAProductions wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Things marines can not do.
Automatically assault your back line with a psychic power out of range for you to deny. (Quicken/Shinning spears.)
They can't destroy your heavy tank with mortal wounds in the shooting phase. (Harliqens)
They can't 1 shot a warlord titan with a single weapon for under 100 points. ( SAG)
Just a few more examples.
Shining Spears have a 16" move. 22" with advance, though they lack native Advance and Charge. Quicken is also tied to a T3 W2 4++ Warlock. T4 W3 if you spring for a bike. Eliminators would eat those guys for breakfast. And, if they DO manage to charge something (which is pretty likely, if they get first turn and successfully cast Quickening) then for 320 points on the Spears alone, they kill 8-9 MEQ. If you have an Apothecary nearby, that drops to 6 or less MEQ dead.
That's true-Harlequins have access to Haywire, which is something Marines lack. But are you saying that Marines struggle to kill vehicles? With Eradicators, Devastators, and the plethora of other units?
And it should be noted, if Battlescribe is correct, the SAG is 120 points. Even if you go for the SSAG (which is no longer tournament legal, but sure, let's do it) and double shoot with it, for 4d6 shots, you get an average of five and a half hits. If every hit wounded and every save was failed and an 11 or 12 was rolled for Strength, that's around enough to one-shot a Dominous Knight. Of course, the odds of all that happening are minuscule.
Always with the odds and never about potential. Just something being possible is enough to ruin a plan or lose you a game with some good/bad luck. In any case - just stating things marines can't do.
3 Eradicators are 120 points. 140 with a MultiMelta and Heavy Meltas.
They can do 72 damage to a single unit.
MultiMelta Devs with a Cherub can do 80 damage in a phase.
MultiMelta Devastators can take an armorium cherub for 10 shots total. That's 80 damage if they get lucky.
Yeah I literally mentioned...it is insane. MM needs a points increase to 30-35 points. Eradicators need to go up 10 points a pop.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 16:02:35
Subject: Re:What Can Marines Not Do?
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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I dont see how the maximum potential is a better metric than the average of a unit.
Sure, a single skyweaver can technically do 18 mortal wounds to a vehicle but in most game its going to be 2-3 mortal wounds (i didnt math it out).
So if you say that skyweavers should always be treated as 18 mortal wounds machines then youre way off the mark.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 16:04:55
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I mean, 10 Tactical Marines could one-shot a Dominus Knight with just their bolters, a combi-plasma, a plasma gun, and a multi-melta.
So about the same as the not-legal SSAG.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 16:07:22
Subject: Re:What Can Marines Not Do?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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VladimirHerzog wrote:I dont see how the maximum potential is a better metric than the average of a unit.
Sure, a single skyweaver can technically do 18 mortal wounds to a vehicle but in most game its going to be 2-3 mortal wounds (i didnt math it out).
So if you say that skyweavers should always be treated as 18 mortal wounds machines then youre way off the mark.
Potential is more important than average to me. Most of the time and average result will deal 0 damage after saves and command rerolls and fnp - it is killer rolls you need to get results most the time. Both need to be looked at though. Unlikely is not impossible. Marines aren't gonna get lucky and get 6 shots with a single smasha gun and kill a knight. It can happen though. It is worth noting the average result or close to it only happens about half the time.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/30 16:08:34
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 16:18:43
Subject: Re:What Can Marines Not Do?
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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Regarding the original question: If I'm not mistaken, marines can't take trackguards on their vehicles, other than IG who can keep some of their tanks running at full speed in the last bracket.
They also lack- as far as I know - a suicide bomb like the Cyclops (I don't know if those are still around in the new book). I can't say if that is a strategic disadvantage, but it is something they cannot do.
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~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 16:20:21
Subject: Re:What Can Marines Not Do?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Xenomancers wrote: VladimirHerzog wrote:I dont see how the maximum potential is a better metric than the average of a unit. Sure, a single skyweaver can technically do 18 mortal wounds to a vehicle but in most game its going to be 2-3 mortal wounds (i didnt math it out). So if you say that skyweavers should always be treated as 18 mortal wounds machines then youre way off the mark.
Potential is more important than average to me. Most of the time and average result will deal 0 damage after saves and command rerolls and fnp - it is killer rolls you need to get results most the time. Both need to be looked at though. Unlikely is not impossible. Marines aren't gonna get lucky and get 6 shots with a single smasha gun and kill a knight. It can happen though. It is worth noting the average result or close to it only happens about half the time.
Do us a favor-calculate the odds of one-shotting a knight with a Smasha Gun. Because, back of the corner math says that if we just assume they get 4 hits (which is pretty good, when the average is 7/6 hits) they've got a .00015% chance of doing that, if the Knight has a 4++. Or, to put another way, if you got 4 hits with a Smasha Gun 2,000,000 times, you'd expect to one-shot the Knight three times. Assuming the Knight isn't Taranis, of course.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/30 16:20:39
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 16:22:22
Subject: Re:What Can Marines Not Do?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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VladimirHerzog wrote:I dont see how the maximum potential is a better metric than the average of a unit.
Sure, a single skyweaver can technically do 18 mortal wounds to a vehicle but in most game its going to be 2-3 mortal wounds (i didnt math it out).
So if you say that skyweavers should always be treated as 18 mortal wounds machines then youre way off the mark.
The total poential damage from skyweavers is redic. each shot can deal 4 damage with 3 being mortal wounds. each skyweaver has 6 potential shots. a single skyweavers can 1 shot a knight possibly. Now that is not what I am saying you should fear. A full unit though. It is well within reason they could kill 3 vehicals in a turn without you ever getting to roll a save.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 16:29:47
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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A single Skyweaver has a .00000000067% chance of one-shotting a Knight.
Or, one in about 150,000,000,000 times it will happen. If you rolled that once every second, it will, on average, happen once in the next 5,000 years.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 16:33:20
Subject: Re:What Can Marines Not Do?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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JNAProductions wrote: Xenomancers wrote: VladimirHerzog wrote:I dont see how the maximum potential is a better metric than the average of a unit.
Sure, a single skyweaver can technically do 18 mortal wounds to a vehicle but in most game its going to be 2-3 mortal wounds (i didnt math it out).
So if you say that skyweavers should always be treated as 18 mortal wounds machines then youre way off the mark.
Potential is more important than average to me. Most of the time and average result will deal 0 damage after saves and command rerolls and fnp - it is killer rolls you need to get results most the time. Both need to be looked at though. Unlikely is not impossible. Marines aren't gonna get lucky and get 6 shots with a single smasha gun and kill a knight. It can happen though. It is worth noting the average result or close to it only happens about half the time.
Do us a favor-calculate the odds of one-shotting a knight with a Smasha Gun.
Because, back of the corner math says that if we just assume they get 4 hits (which is pretty good, when the average is 7/6 hits) they've got a .00015% chance of doing that, if the Knight has a 4++. Or, to put another way, if you got 4 hits with a Smasha Gun 2,000,000 times, you'd expect to one-shot the Knight three times. Assuming the Knight isn't Taranis, of course. ofc A knight is a tall target though. Something like a repulsor and a redemptor...a lot easier. Or even worse ... a carnifex. Lascannon cant one shot a carni. A smasha on a decent roll will.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 16:34:41
Subject: Re:What Can Marines Not Do?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Xenomancers wrote: JNAProductions wrote: Xenomancers wrote: VladimirHerzog wrote:I dont see how the maximum potential is a better metric than the average of a unit. Sure, a single skyweaver can technically do 18 mortal wounds to a vehicle but in most game its going to be 2-3 mortal wounds (i didnt math it out). So if you say that skyweavers should always be treated as 18 mortal wounds machines then youre way off the mark.
Potential is more important than average to me. Most of the time and average result will deal 0 damage after saves and command rerolls and fnp - it is killer rolls you need to get results most the time. Both need to be looked at though. Unlikely is not impossible. Marines aren't gonna get lucky and get 6 shots with a single smasha gun and kill a knight. It can happen though. It is worth noting the average result or close to it only happens about half the time.
Do us a favor-calculate the odds of one-shotting a knight with a Smasha Gun. Because, back of the corner math says that if we just assume they get 4 hits (which is pretty good, when the average is 7/6 hits) they've got a .00015% chance of doing that, if the Knight has a 4++. Or, to put another way, if you got 4 hits with a Smasha Gun 2,000,000 times, you'd expect to one-shot the Knight three times. Assuming the Knight isn't Taranis, of course. ofc A knight is a tall target though. Something like a repulsor and a redemptor...a lot easier. Or even worse ... a carnifex. Lascannon cant one shot a carni. A smasha on a decent roll will.
A suppressor squad squad can one-shot a Repulsor.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/30 16:35:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 16:39:39
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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JNAProductions wrote:A single Skyweaver has a .00000000067% chance of one-shotting a Knight.
Or, one in about 150,000,000,000 times it will happen. If you rolled that once every second, it will, on average, happen once in the next 5,000 years.
That is the magic perfect roll. If you take all the results that deal 10+ wounds. You have a much better number there. Instead of 1 and 150 billion. You are down what - one in 200? And you have 6 of them? shooting every turn? Crazy results happen in games - practically every game I see tripps or quads rolled. Not even sure how we got here. Just because I said Marines aren't gonna 1 shot a castellan with a SAG I guess. I can confirm though...I've seen this happen 3 times in person. Every single one of those situations is an automatic win for the orks.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 16:42:34
Subject: Re:What Can Marines Not Do?
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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In that logic an IG conscript squad can oneshot a Knight outside of rapid fire range with wounds to spare. They have 30 shots, so that can be 30 wounds, right?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 16:50:38
Subject: Re:What Can Marines Not Do?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Pyroalchi wrote:In that logic an IG conscript squad can oneshot a Knight outside of rapid fire range with wounds to spare. They have 30 shots, so that can be 30 wounds, right? I even saw it happen exactly 17 times in 8th edition, and each time ended in a crushing victory for the IG player! Crazy stuff happens in games! Did you know I once saw a warlock reroll a snakeeyes perils into a snakeeyes perils? Clearly they should be worth 0 points, or even negative points, since they have the potential to self-destruct and do d3 mortal wounds to everyone around them, including friendlies. After all, it's the potential that matters, not the average!!
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/30 16:51:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 17:01:54
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Complete intellectual dishonesty. Complete and utter. The SAG with proper strat useage and command rerolls had a 20% chance of doing 20 damage or more to a knight - and it was like 80 points. A nice guy laid out an excellent grid about 1.5 years ago to demonstrate on dakka. Plus yes - IG infantry have a lot of damage potential. It is part of the reason that 5 point IG infantry were way to low compare to a space marine. Yet - even then the same space marine haters refused to acknowledge how weak marines were.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/30 17:02:22
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 17:05:44
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 17:22:44
Subject: Re:What Can Marines Not Do?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Pyroalchi wrote:In that logic an IG conscript squad can oneshot a Knight outside of rapid fire range with wounds to spare. They have 30 shots, so that can be 30 wounds, right?
I even saw it happen exactly 17 times in 8th edition, and each time ended in a crushing victory for the IG player! Crazy stuff happens in games! Did you know I once saw a warlock reroll a snakeeyes perils into a snakeeyes perils? Clearly they should be worth 0 points, or even negative points, since they have the potential to self-destruct and do d3 mortal wounds to everyone around them, including friendlies.
After all, it's the potential that matters, not the average!!
What is that logical fallacy where you restate someone's argument incorrectly? Oh yeah the strawman...never seen that before. Never said Average doesn't matter. I said average results are underwhelming sometimes. It is big hits that you need to kill units and win game. Do you really think it makes a difference wether you do 3 or 4 damage to a 24 wound vehicle most the time? Killing in it 1 turn though...that makes a big difference. ESP when it can act as normal regardless of damage. To not acknowledge this is baffling to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Brilliant...I know you are but what am I. Actually children in here.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/30 17:24:53
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 17:35:04
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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Xenomancers wrote:Complete intellectual dishonesty. Complete and utter. The SAG with proper strat useage and command rerolls had a 20% chance of doing 20 damage or more to a knight - and it was like 80 points. A nice guy laid out an excellent grid about 1.5 years ago to demonstrate on dakka. Plus yes - IG infantry have a lot of damage potential. It is part of the reason that 5 point IG infantry were way to low compare to a space marine. Yet - even then the same space marine haters refused to acknowledge how weak marines were.
yeah, can we get a source on that claim?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 17:40:02
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Xenomancers wrote:Complete intellectual dishonesty. Complete and utter. The SAG with proper strat useage and command rerolls had a 20% chance of doing 20 damage or more to a knight - and it was like 80 points. A nice guy laid out an excellent grid about 1.5 years ago to demonstrate on dakka. Plus yes - IG infantry have a lot of damage potential. It is part of the reason that 5 point IG infantry were way to low compare to a space marine. Yet - even then the same space marine haters refused to acknowledge how weak marines were.
No people weren't agreeing because maine everything as points efficent as 5ppm guardsmen made tha game too dang lethal.
Yets thats exactly what GW did with codex 2.0 and guess what Marines jumped to being OP.
Taking a foot infantry tack list and wiping the floor of an IG gunline in 8th was the clear tell tale game for me of new marines being the new problem child.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 17:40:40
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Dakka Veteran
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Rather than fixing 5 ppm guardsmen, GW just made marines that good across the board. I really need to stop expecting them to ever implement sensible fixes.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/30 17:41:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 17:44:18
Subject: Re:What Can Marines Not Do?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Xenomancers wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote: Pyroalchi wrote:In that logic an IG conscript squad can oneshot a Knight outside of rapid fire range with wounds to spare. They have 30 shots, so that can be 30 wounds, right?
I even saw it happen exactly 17 times in 8th edition, and each time ended in a crushing victory for the IG player! Crazy stuff happens in games! Did you know I once saw a warlock reroll a snakeeyes perils into a snakeeyes perils? Clearly they should be worth 0 points, or even negative points, since they have the potential to self-destruct and do d3 mortal wounds to everyone around them, including friendlies.
After all, it's the potential that matters, not the average!!
What is that logical fallacy where you restate someone's argument incorrectly? Oh yeah the strawman...never seen that before. Never said Average doesn't matter. I said average results are underwhelming sometimes. It is big hits that you need to kill units and win game. Do you really think it makes a difference wether you do 3 or 4 damage to a 24 wound vehicle most the time? Killing in it 1 turn though...that makes a big difference. ESP when it can act as normal regardless of damage. To not acknowledge this is baffling to me..
1 only Mechnicus Knights can act in top bracket with a strategum. Not any knight and certainly not all knights.
Avarage dice matter a lot to non marine units because.
GUESS WHAT we don't get to keep rerolling every dice we throw.
If you throw 10 dice for most factions the result is what it is.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 17:46:09
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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VladimirHerzog wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Complete intellectual dishonesty. Complete and utter. The SAG with proper strat useage and command rerolls had a 20% chance of doing 20 damage or more to a knight - and it was like 80 points. A nice guy laid out an excellent grid about 1.5 years ago to demonstrate on dakka. Plus yes - IG infantry have a lot of damage potential. It is part of the reason that 5 point IG infantry were way to low compare to a space marine. Yet - even then the same space marine haters refused to acknowledge how weak marines were.
yeah, can we get a source on that claim?
so 5 point guardsmen were balanced?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote: Xenomancers wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote: Pyroalchi wrote:In that logic an IG conscript squad can oneshot a Knight outside of rapid fire range with wounds to spare. They have 30 shots, so that can be 30 wounds, right?
I even saw it happen exactly 17 times in 8th edition, and each time ended in a crushing victory for the IG player! Crazy stuff happens in games! Did you know I once saw a warlock reroll a snakeeyes perils into a snakeeyes perils? Clearly they should be worth 0 points, or even negative points, since they have the potential to self-destruct and do d3 mortal wounds to everyone around them, including friendlies.
After all, it's the potential that matters, not the average!!
What is that logical fallacy where you restate someone's argument incorrectly? Oh yeah the strawman...never seen that before. Never said Average doesn't matter. I said average results are underwhelming sometimes. It is big hits that you need to kill units and win game. Do you really think it makes a difference wether you do 3 or 4 damage to a 24 wound vehicle most the time? Killing in it 1 turn though...that makes a big difference. ESP when it can act as normal regardless of damage. To not acknowledge this is baffling to me..
1 only Mechnicus Knights can act in top bracket with a strategum. Not any knight and certainly not all knights.
Avarage dice matter a lot to non marine units because.
GUESS WHAT we don't get to keep rerolling every dice we throw.
If you throw 10 dice for most factions the result is what it is.
I've never seen a none mechanicus knight. There is no need to ever take one. For this exact reason.
It's also completely false. Every army can reroll in some capacity. The only army really struggling in this area is tyranids as far as I can recall.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/30 17:48:43
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/30 17:47:36
Subject: What Can Marines Not Do?
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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Xenomancers wrote: VladimirHerzog wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Complete intellectual dishonesty. Complete and utter. The SAG with proper strat useage and command rerolls had a 20% chance of doing 20 damage or more to a knight - and it was like 80 points. A nice guy laid out an excellent grid about 1.5 years ago to demonstrate on dakka. Plus yes - IG infantry have a lot of damage potential. It is part of the reason that 5 point IG infantry were way to low compare to a space marine. Yet - even then the same space marine haters refused to acknowledge how weak marines were.
yeah, can we get a source on that claim?
so 5 point guardsmen were balanced?
not on the 5pts guardsmen, on the "20% chance to do 20 damage to a knight". What were the stratagems that were used to achieve that? And more importantly, What was the average damage it did. Automatically Appended Next Post: Xenomancers wrote:
I've never seen a none mechanicus knight. There is no need to ever take one. For this exact reason.
It's also completely false. Every army can reroll in some capacity. The only army really struggling in this area is tyranids as far as I can recall.
What are chaos knights?
And no, only marines and belisarius cawl get to reroll ALL hits and wounds of 1.
And cawl is locked to a single subfaction.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/30 17:50:05
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