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 JNAProductions wrote:
Breton, do you honestly think Eradicators are well-balanced?

I don’t think they’re that far off.

I think a lot of people hate them because they’re marine and new, not based on any rational, factual, mathematical basis.

The math DOES get a little wonky when they take a MM upgrade instead of their special rule being their MM upgrade. They’re not my preference, but comparing them to a lot of different units comes out pretty similar. The list is above. In many cases the difference is personal preference between speed, delivery method etc.

I think if you took other units that can’t take a MM but used it and the army wide cost, they’d fit in this pattern too. A Sentinel with a Multimelta isn’t “legal”, but would slot in pretty similar to the attack bike and speeder on price which is similar to the eradicators.

I think they’re getting a double whammy bonus with changes to MM and being first in the update cycle that will smooth out as more factions get their update.

I think every edition has an “element” flavor of the month/edition, and this time it’s Melta.

I think there are bigger problems resulting from that theory than 40 point eradicators - Orks, Nids etc not having any Melta at all for example. Tanks still being dead weight for another.

Finally I think this is another example of wanting to nerf a marine datasheet not fix the problem that sheet is a symptom/example of.

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Breton, do you honestly think Eradicators are well-balanced?

I don’t think they’re that far off.

I think a lot of people hate them because they’re marine and new, not based on any rational, factual, mathematical basis.

The math DOES get a little wonky when they take a MM upgrade instead of their special rule being their MM upgrade. They’re not my preference, but comparing them to a lot of different units comes out pretty similar. The list is above. In many cases the difference is personal preference between speed, delivery method etc.

I think if you took other units that can’t take a MM but used it and the army wide cost, they’d fit in this pattern too. A Sentinel with a Multimelta isn’t “legal”, but would slot in pretty similar to the attack bike and speeder on price which is similar to the eradicators.

I think they’re getting a double whammy bonus with changes to MM and being first in the update cycle that will smooth out as more factions get their update.

I think every edition has an “element” flavor of the month/edition, and this time it’s Melta.

I think there are bigger problems resulting from that theory than 40 point eradicators - Orks, Nids etc not having any Melta at all for example. Tanks still being dead weight for another.

Finally I think this is another example of wanting to nerf a marine datasheet not fix the problem that sheet is a symptom/example of.

Can you name a unit that has similar damage output and durability?

Because 125 points of Melta Chosen gets you 5 Melta Shots at 12", on five T4 W1 3+ bodies.

For 5 more points, they get one less shot, at half the range, on a less durable body.

Edit I should've specified, a non-Marine unit. I'm aware Marines have other broken gak.

I think 52-56 is a more fair price for eradicators. That, or make them 30-34 and take away total eradication.

They seem to have removed melta for BA ASM, so that's one fewer point of comparison. I guess tactical guys can get melta, but its hard to use without a drop pod.

Your claim that BS 5+ vrs BS 3+ or BS4+ is arguing in extremely bad faith.

It takes on avarage dice without rerolls 3 shots at BS 3 to achieve 2 hits
It takes 4 shots at BS4+, to achieve 2 hits
It takes 6 shots at BS5+ to achieve 2 hits.

Assuming S T Sv etc are all the same for the same damage output. A BS 5+ weapon should cost 3/6 or 1/2 what it does for a BS3+ unit.
A BS 4+ weapon should cost 3/4 of the same weapon on a BS 3+ platform.

This works fairly well for Shooting but I will admit has some quirks if you try and apply it to WS. Also made a tad more complicated when you have to price in a basic weapon thats traded out.

Thankfully neither of these quirks apply to eradicators.

An eradicator with MultiMelta costs 50 points.
MultiMeltas for marines cost 20 points.
So the eradicator without weapon costs 30 points for a T5 3W BS3+ model with double shoot ability.

Assuming double shoot is priced at the cost of the weapon that puts eradicators at 20ppm for T5 3W aka 0 points more than an intercessor is +1W and +1T realy worth the same as a boltrifle and obsec? Dont think so.

Servitor with MultiMelta is 27 points even assuming they were paying the "fair points of 10 points for MultiMelta but they can be BS4 with a techpriest so even saying 15 points that means GW thinks a Servitor is worth 12 points for 1W T3 and 4+Sv

1W T3 4+Sv 12 points
3W T5 3+Sv 20 points

Somethings totally wrong there.

Double shoot is hard to cost. Double shoot on a bolter? Super meh. Double shoot on melta? That's probably the strongest possible beneficiary.

The other problem being single shot melta is EXTREMELY anemic at S8 with T8 out there and a plethora of invulns. This is why strength bonuses and/or invuln penetration is a better solution to me. MOAR shots invalidates non-invuln targets even harder and allows them to be efficient vs more targets than a buffed single shot.

a Str 6-7 weapon that has 3+ shots and has an AP2 or better with D2 or higher is , if such weapon exists, the best target for shoting a second time. Specialy if it can be spamed on a single target. Just as good as a twice shoting melta vs most tanks, and much better vs infantry of all kinds.

I said probably. Accelerator autocannon would be really good, too.

Karol wrote:
a Str 6-7 weapon that has 3+ shots and has an AP2 or better with D2 or higher is , if such weapon exists, the best target for shoting a second time. Specialy if it can be spamed on a single target. Just as good as a twice shoting melta vs most tanks, and much better vs infantry of all kinds.

I believe you're describing the Accelerator Autocannon.

It got an AP nerf, though with an extra shot. I guess that's a buff, but there are cases (like salamanders) where its an issue. In general, I feel much better with -2 AP over -1 AP.

 JNAProductions wrote:


Can you name a unit that has similar damage output and durability?

Because 125 points of Melta Chosen gets you 5 Melta Shots at 12", on five T4 W1 3+ bodies.

For 5 more points, they get one less shot, at half the range, on a less durable body.

You mean like Fire Dragons that get two 3+ Wounds on 2 models? That are faster and have more delivery options? Let me guess. That doesn’t count.

How about guard special weapons squads that get three Melta shots for 5 points more than Erads pay for 2, and thee ablative wound models, and are faster (but less so) and have delivery options? Don’t count?

The attack bike is T5, 4W, for a small price increase. And almost 3x faster.

The land speeder tornado is T6 W6 while trading one Melta shot for 3 AssCan shots per 45ish points.

A 5 man Dev Squad with 3 MM and 2 ablative 2W bodies Is in this zone.

The Stormspeeder Hammer strike is in the parking lot outside the ballpark but hard to compare because it’s got more going on.


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 JNAProductions wrote:

Karol wrote:
a Str 6-7 weapon that has 3+ shots and has an AP2 or better with D2 or higher is , if such weapon exists, the best target for shoting a second time. Specialy if it can be spamed on a single target. Just as good as a twice shoting melta vs most tanks, and much better vs infantry of all kinds.

I believe you're describing the Accelerator Autocannon.

I don’t think he’s talking about the Accellerator - it’s -1 and AP2 is/was usually -4 depending on how you’re using the AP scale:

Not to take anything away from Suppressors. And Firestrike Turrets, but Suppressors are the way to go there. You pay almost as much for one turret as you do three suppressors.

And - somewhat - the Assault Incinerator I mentioned above but everyone glossed over. Hellblasters got a nice boost, but it’s going to take a while to shake out because most people built the one version of the three that didn’t. Assault 3, S6 -4 D1 with plasma/overcharge rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
.
So the eradicator without weapon costs 30 points for a T5 3W BS3+ model with double shoot ability.

Assuming double shoot is priced at the cost of the weapon that puts eradicators at 20ppm for T5 3W aka 0 points more than an intercessor
Somethings totally wrong there.

You mean like you not accounting for the 10-ish point base weapon they have? Or “assuming” the cost of a double shoot that isn’t used all the time every time is the same cost as the first shoot ability I.e. the weapon? Thank God one of us argues in bad faith.

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


Can you name a unit that has similar damage output and durability?

Because 125 points of Melta Chosen gets you 5 Melta Shots at 12", on five T4 W1 3+ bodies.

For 5 more points, they get one less shot, at half the range, on a less durable body.

You mean like Fire Dragons that get two 3+ Wounds on 2 models? That are faster and have more delivery options? Let me guess. That doesn’t count.

How about guard special weapons squads that get three Melta shots for 5 points more than Erads pay for 2, and thee ablative wound models, and are faster (but less so) and have delivery options? Don’t count?

The attack bike is T5, 4W, for a small price increase. And almost 3x faster.

The land speeder tornado is T6 W6 while trading one Melta shot for 3 AssCan shots per 45ish points.

A 5 man Dev Squad with 3 MM and 2 ablative 2W bodies Is in this zone.

The Stormspeeder Hammer strike is in the parking lot outside the ballpark but hard to compare because it’s got more going on.

Fire Dragons are immensely less durable. T3 W1 3+ is nowhere close to T5 W3 3+. (The extra wound on the Exarch will usually help-but not NEARLY enough.)
Special Weapon Squads get 3 Melta Shots for 45 points, at 12". On 6 T3 W1 5+ bodies. It takes 11 AP-1 Bolter hits to kill them all-that same firepower will do one or two wounds to an Eradicator. Once again, they might have similar firepower, but nowhere near the durability.
The last four ones are all Marine units-saying "Marines aren't broken! Look at other powerful Marine options!" doesn't really help your case.

Breton wrote:


Yeah, I’ve pointed out a few times how ridiculous the changing claim has gotten. Other people pay more. Except they don’t. But you’re getting us closer to that model with a left boot larger than the right boot while sacrificing a goat at midnight criteria. Guard special weapons get it cheaper. But don’t count. Retributors get it cheaper. But don’t count. AM Servitors get it cheaper. But don’t count. Fire Dragons get it cheaper, but don’t count.

Special weapons squads have bs4+, so they get 2 12" Melta Hits for 60 points (4 SWS gunners+4 normal ones +4 meltaguns
Eradicators have BS3+ and get 2 hits for 60 points. So exactly the same price but at twice the range and much sturdier.

@ Servitors: I'm not sure what the new MM cost, it was 35 points for two shots, right? + the 14 for two Servitors with BS 5+ (4+ with a techpriest). So 98 points for two hits. 68 should MM stay at 20 points for Ad mech. Again: not cheaper.

 Pyroalchi wrote:

Breton wrote:


Yeah, I’ve pointed out a few times how ridiculous the changing claim has gotten. Other people pay more. Except they don’t. But you’re getting us closer to that model with a left boot larger than the right boot while sacrificing a goat at midnight criteria. Guard special weapons get it cheaper. But don’t count. Retributors get it cheaper. But don’t count. AM Servitors get it cheaper. But don’t count. Fire Dragons get it cheaper, but don’t count.

Special weapons squads have bs4+, so they get 2 12" Melta Hits for 60 points (4 SWS gunners+4 normal ones +4 meltaguns
Eradicators have BS3+ and get 2 hits for 60 points. So exactly the same price but at twice the range and much sturdier.

@ Servitors: I'm not sure what the new MM cost, it was 35 points for two shots, right? + the 14 for two Servitors with BS 5+ (4+ with a techpriest). So 98 points for two hits. 68 should MM stay at 20 points for Ad mech. Again: not cheaper.

Excellent point, yeah. 30 points on the SWS to Melta HIT, whereas Eradicators pay the same 30 points, but with greater range and durability.

SecondTime wrote:
. I guess tactical guys can get melta, but its hard to use without a drop pod.

Eradicators cant even use a drop pod. And are 1” slower.

I know, I know. That doesn’t count.

Fire dragons are unplayable, Eradicators are #1.

Fire dragons die to bolter fire, and every wound lost is a shot less.
Fire dragons have 12" range. Eradicators 24".
Fire dragons have the wave serpent/falcon. Eradicators just outflank or walk up the middle of the table to reach any target.
120 pts of Fire dragons get 5 shots. 120 Pts of eradicators get 6 (or 8 with the bigger gun)

They have a 24" gun. They don't need a pod. WTF are you talking about?

" Eradicators just outflank or walk up the middle of the table to reach any target."

This ^^^^^

Breton wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
. I guess tactical guys can get melta, but its hard to use without a drop pod.

Eradicators cant even use a drop pod. And are 1” slower.

I know, I know. That doesn’t count.

120 points for 1 12" Melta shot and 2 24" Melta shots in a 5-man Squad.
240 for two.
310 with the Drop Pod.

So you get 6 Melta Shots for just over 300 points, two of which are out of Melta Range, four of which are at -1 to-hit.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Excellent point, yeah. 30 points on the SWS to Melta HIT, whereas Eradicators pay the same 30 points, but with greater range and durability.

From the HS not the Elite... I know. Doesn’t count. With ablative 4+ wounds. Doesn’t count. In multiple models and multiple squads because for each individual Erad model you’re getting an entire squad. In an already target saturated t3 4+ target bracket. I know. Doesn’t count. The models left boot is not larger than the right boot! Doesn’t count!


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 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
. I guess tactical guys can get melta, but its hard to use without a drop pod.

Eradicators cant even use a drop pod. And are 1” slower.

I know, I know. That doesn’t count.

120 points for 1 12" Melta shot and 2 24" Melta shots in a 5-man Squad.
240 for two.
310 with the Drop Pod.

So you get 6 Melta Shots for just over 300 points, two of which are out of Melta Range, four of which are at -1 to-hit.

You guys are hillarious.

Nerf Eradicators.

They’re not really out of whack.

Melta is hard to use without a drop pod.

Eradicators cant even use drop pods.

DOESNT COUNT!!!

Snark doesn't support your position. Rather than these comparisons, I'm just going with simple recosting. Recostings you don't agree with, obviously.

"You guys are hillarious."

I guess everyone is when you think you are the smartest guy in the room.

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Excellent point, yeah. 30 points on the SWS to Melta HIT, whereas Eradicators pay the same 30 points, but with greater range and durability.

From the HS not the Elite... I know. Doesn’t count. With ablative 4+ wounds. Doesn’t count. In multiple models and multiple squads because for each individual Erad model you’re getting an entire squad. In an already target saturated t3 4+ target bracket. I know. Doesn’t count. The models left boot is not larger than the right boot! Doesn’t count!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
. I guess tactical guys can get melta, but its hard to use without a drop pod.

Eradicators cant even use a drop pod. And are 1” slower.

I know, I know. That doesn’t count.

120 points for 1 12" Melta shot and 2 24" Melta shots in a 5-man Squad.
240 for two.
310 with the Drop Pod.

So you get 6 Melta Shots for just over 300 points, two of which are out of Melta Range, four of which are at -1 to-hit.

You guys are hillarious.

Nerf Eradicators.

They’re not really out of whack.

Melta is hard to use without a drop pod.

Eradicators cant even use drop pods.

DOESNT COUNT!!!

12 inches Vrs 24 inches Doesn't COUNT your the hilarious one.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24.

Obviously the same.

Breton wrote:
How about guard special weapons squads that get three Melta shots for 5 points more than Erads pay for 2, and thee ablative wound models, and are faster (but less so) and have delivery options? Don’t count?

45pts gets you 6 T3/5+ wounds with three melta shots at 12", at BS4+ averaging 1.5 hits.

40pts gets you 3 T5/3+ wounds with two melta shots at 24", at BS3+ averaging 1.33 hits.

When you adjust for points, both the SWS and the Eradicator average the same number of hits. Except the Eradicator has double the range. And is hurt less by negative modifiers. And has greater access to re-rolls. And when within the SWS's range, inflicts significantly more damage.

Then you look at durability, where that one Eradicator is significantly harder to kill. SWS get 3 T3/5+ ablative wounds before they start losing firepower; the Eradicator has 2 T5/3+ ablative wounds. The Eradicator has double the save and higher T at the cost of half the wounds- the Eradicator is nearly as hard to kill with Heavy Bolters, let alone with anything D1.

Yes, the SWS are an entire inch faster. Yes, they have delivery options. Neither of these are relevant if you can hit enemy vehicles turn 1 with no delivery needed and the durability to not die instantly if you don't get the first turn. Special Weapon Squads are so fragile and short-ranged that they outright need a delivery option to be at all useful, while Eradicators do not, and you're trying to frame that as an advantage to the SWS.

I really don't understand how you can set up these comparisons and not recognize just how bad Eradicators make virtually every other anti-tank unit look in comparison. If they had the range limitation of SWSes, or the fragility of SWSes, or just didn't have that double-shoot mechanic (they'd probably even be deserving of a points drop in that case!), there wouldn't be complaining.

Inb4 the inevitable 'well SWS suck and nobody uses them so it's okay if Eradicators are way better'.

SecondTime wrote:
Snark doesn't support your position. Rather than these comparisons, I'm just going with simple recosting. Recostings you don't agree with, obviously.

"You guys are hillarious."

I guess everyone is when you think you are the smartest guy in the room.

Who’s even trying to support a position any more? What point is there? This all started (today)with a guy who refused to read supporting evidence to protect his narrative bubble. I don’t have to be the smartest guy in the room to predict all the “That doesn’t count” replies. Having someone make such a reply while I’m simultaneously predicting it’s imminent arrival is funny.

12" melta covers 452 sq inches, while 24" melta covers 1,809 sq inches for targeting purposes. Does that count?

Breton wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Snark doesn't support your position. Rather than these comparisons, I'm just going with simple recosting. Recostings you don't agree with, obviously.

"You guys are hillarious."

I guess everyone is when you think you are the smartest guy in the room.

Who’s even trying to support a position any more? What point is there? This all started (today)with a guy who refused to read supporting evidence to protect his narrative bubble. I don’t have to be the smartest guy in the room to predict all the “That doesn’t count” replies. Having someone make such a reply while I’m simultaneously predicting it’s imminent arrival is funny.

Damn, you're so much smarter than the rest. I totally didnt take into account that we could disregard the range and resilience of eradicators when comparing them to other non-marine anti tank infantry.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Breton wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Snark doesn't support your position. Rather than these comparisons, I'm just going with simple recosting. Recostings you don't agree with, obviously.

"You guys are hillarious."

I guess everyone is when you think you are the smartest guy in the room.

Who’s even trying to support a position any more? What point is there? This all started (today)with a guy who refused to read supporting evidence to protect his narrative bubble. I don’t have to be the smartest guy in the room to predict all the “That doesn’t count” replies. Having someone make such a reply while I’m simultaneously predicting it’s imminent arrival is funny.

Damn, you're so much smarter than the rest. I totally didnt take into account that we could disregard the range and resilience of eradicators when comparing them to other non-marine anti tank infantry.

Don't forget the free Double tap. But that is also irrelevant , because can in some cases be compensated by massive cp investment

Breton, like, are you even aware that the units you're comparing Eradicators to aren't used because they're generally considered bad, while 3x3 Eradicators are regularly showing up in tournament-winning lists?

Do you think all these Guard and Eldar players are just sleeping on some of the best anti-tank available?

Or do you think these Marine players have no idea what they're doing and are taking a crap unit?

Like if you really think these units are comparable, how do you explain the fact that Eradicators are used competitively and SWSes and Fire Dragons aren't?

 catbarf wrote:


Yes, the SWS are an entire inch faster. Yes, they have delivery options. Neither of these are relevant if you can hit enemy vehicles turn 1 with no delivery needed and the durability to not die instantly if you don't get the first turn. Special Weapon Squads are so fragile and short-ranged that they outright need a delivery option to be at all useful, while Eradicators do not, and you're trying to frame that as an advantage to the SWS.

So you’re saying a unit with 24 inch guns are going to be in range on all those not within 24” deployment boards chocked with terrain and LOS blockers that they make SWS not count?

Breton wrote:

 catbarf wrote:


Yes, the SWS are an entire inch faster. Yes, they have delivery options. Neither of these are relevant if you can hit enemy vehicles turn 1 with no delivery needed and the durability to not die instantly if you don't get the first turn. Special Weapon Squads are so fragile and short-ranged that they outright need a delivery option to be at all useful, while Eradicators do not, and you're trying to frame that as an advantage to the SWS.

So you’re saying a unit with 24 inch guns are going to be in range on all those not within 24” deployment boards chocked with terrain and LOS blockers that they make SWS not count?

Not all boards are like that. Many boards are primarily cover, even with the new terrain rules. Range matters. A lot.

No one mentioned terrain or LoS in regards to SWS.

It’s range-12” is a lot worse than 24”, especially when you’re super fragile.

And the mods wonder why people loose the plot when people keep posting utter rubbish and ignore facts when the inconsistencies are called out.

Mods should be romoving posts that are flat out incorrect, not complaining that people don't play nice with liers.