Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 catbarf wrote:
Breton, like, are you even aware that the units you're comparing Eradicators to aren't used because they're generally considered bad, while 3x3 Eradicators are regularly showing up in tournament-winning lists?

I’m aware we’ve had people already point out 3x3 aren’t showing up in tournament lists anymore - in fact someone earlier said it was 2x3 and a Dev squad, but you’re still claiming they are.

I’m aware when other Marine AT options are mentioned people laugh and say some version “that just proves more units are broken” but when you say Guard Eldar and others are finding other better anti-tank in their army, apparent it...


Doesn’t count.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
No one mentioned terrain or LoS in regards to SWS.

It’s range-12” is a lot worse than 24”, especially when you’re super fragile.

I’m shocked. It doesn’t count.

How are Fire Dragons better than Eradicators?
Or SWS?

Well apparently, range doesn't count to you because of terrain that may or may not exist.

Ice_can wrote:
And the mods wonder why people loose the plot when people keep posting utter rubbish and ignore facts when the inconsistencies are called out.

Mods should be romoving posts that are flat out incorrect, not complaining that people don't play nice with liers.

I’d certainly miss your posts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SecondTime wrote:
Well apparently, range doesn't count to you because of terrain that may or may not exist.

Amazing how often Planet Bowling Ball makes a comeback when it’s convenient.

Not within 24 -5 inch movement, - 6” advance is still not within Melta bonus range. Even on Planet Bowling Ball, going first, deployed directly across from a juicy target.

I know, I know it doesn’t count. Unless we’re talking about Melta Tacs in a Drop Pod.

You are missing the difference between Unit A has x,y,z properties that make its current cost not fair compared to Unit B with i,j,k properties and Unit B "doesn't count".

"Amazing how often Planet Bowling Ball makes a comeback when it’s convenient."

It's not planet bowling ball if a great deal of the terrain doesn't function as LoS blocking despite the table looking quite good. This happens a lot.

"still not within Melta bonus range."

What if I don't care about or need that?

 JNAProductions wrote:
How are Fire Dragons better than Eradicators?
Or SWS?

Well, they can both get a ride.
They can both be spammed easier in an army that’s far cheaper in other places.
They’ll require more shots by virtue of being immune to multi damage weapons.

But none of that counts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SecondTime wrote:
You are missing the difference between Unit A has x,y,z properties that make its current cost not fair compared to Unit B with i,j,k properties and Unit B "doesn't count".

"Amazing how often Planet Bowling Ball makes a comeback when it’s convenient."

It's not planet bowling ball if a great deal of the terrain doesn't function as LoS blocking despite the table looking quite good. This happens a lot.

"still not within Melta bonus range."

What if I don't care about or need that?

In other news 24+ inches - 11 inches is still more than 12 inches. But that still doesn’t count.

And if you don’t care or need it, you don’t need or care about Melta. Not that that counts or anything.

What if it really *doesn't* count? This is getting really philosophical. But there's the real chance you're just trolling at this point.

Getting a ride requires extra points-and Erads can get a ride too.

Cheaper=/=better, when they’re not cheap enough.

And they require far less dedicated firepower to take down-SWS can die to a single 5-man Intercessor squad throwing chip fire at them. Fire Dragons require a bit more, but a 10-man should do them in just fine, taking out a five-man with an Exarch

The overall package is a lot worse.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Getting a ride requires extra points-and Erads can get a ride too.

Cheaper=/=better, when they’re not cheap enough.

And they require far less dedicated firepower to take down-SWS can die to a single 5-man Intercessor squad throwing chip fire at them. Fire Dragons require a bit more, but a 10-man should do them in just fine, taking out a five-man with an Exarch

The overall package is a lot worse.

That doesn't count.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Getting a ride requires extra points-and Erads can get a ride too.

They sure can. In Repulsors. Is that the argument you want to make?

Cheaper=/=better, when they’re not cheap enough.

And they require far less dedicated firepower to take down-SWS can die to a single 5-man Intercessor squad throwing chip fire at them.

so 100 points of Intercessors kill 45 points of SWS and the other 90 points of SWS take down.. the three Eradicators. This is fun.

Also 10*.67*.67*.67 is only 3.00763. AKA the Ablative wounds.

Fire Dragons require a bit more, but a 10-man should do them in just fine, taking out a five-man with an Exarch

The overall package is a lot worse.

20*.67*.67*.5 is only 4 and change damage, but sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SecondTime wrote:
What if it really *doesn't* count? This is getting really philosophical. But there's the real chance you're just trolling at this point.

Oh I’m not trolling, but I’m not taking you/this seriously either.

A) Whining in Dakka isn’t going to change a GW rulebook.

B) whining on Dakka not backed up with math and evidence REALLY isn’t going to do it.

C) it only counts when it’s a marine model with a left boot slightly larger than the right boot. And we hate the unit because it’s new and decent
Y priced.

Lets move on please, any further posts just going back and forth just dismissing whatever someone else posted and saying "doesn't count" or the like will be treated as spam. If you're not going to engage in the conversation in good faith, please leave it.

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Getting a ride requires extra points-and Erads can get a ride too.

They sure can. In Repulsors. Is that the argument you want to make?

Cheaper=/=better, when they’re not cheap enough.

And they require far less dedicated firepower to take down-SWS can die to a single 5-man Intercessor squad throwing chip fire at them.

so 100 points of Intercessors kill 45 points of SWS and the other 90 points of SWS take down.. the three Eradicators. This is fun.

Also 10*.67*.67*.67 is only 3.00763. AKA the Ablative wounds.

Fire Dragons require a bit more, but a 10-man should do them in just fine, taking out a five-man with an Exarch

The overall package is a lot worse.

20*.67*.67*.5 is only 4 and change damage, but sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SecondTime wrote:
What if it really *doesn't* count? This is getting really philosophical. But there's the real chance you're just trolling at this point.

Oh I’m not trolling, but I’m not taking you/this seriously either.

A) Whining in Dakka isn’t going to change a GW rulebook.

B) whining on Dakka not backed up with math and evidence REALLY isn’t going to do it.

C) it only counts when it’s a marine model with a left boot slightly larger than the right boot. And we hate the unit because it’s new and decent
Y priced.

Unless there's a rule that says "Fire Dragons get a free Wave Serpent," you need to account for the cost.
And they need a transport more than Eradicators-both because they're more fragile and shorter ranged.

AP-1 on Bolt Rifles, or 15 shots on AutoBolt. And add an extra point of AP Turns 2 and 3.

Moreover, how are you getting the SWS in range of the Eradicators? Are you taking a transport? In which case, they now cost a lot more, and the transport is very vulnerable to Eradicators.

Do you honestly believe SWS or Fire Dragons are on par with Eradicators?

All this chat about Eradicators and no one is mentioning how absurd the new Redemptor is for its points.

Darsath wrote:
All this chat about Eradicators and no one is mentioning how absurd the new Redemptor is for its points.

I had the feeling someone was about to...

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Getting a ride requires extra points-and Erads can get a ride too.

They sure can. In Repulsors. Is that the argument you want to make?

Oh wait, you said Redemptor. Is there a new Redemptor, or do you mean the old one with new rules?

Darsath wrote:
All this chat about Eradicators and no one is mentioning how absurd the new Redemptor is for its points.

It's very good, but undone by said eradicators pretty easily. 2 damage weapons are best used vs the marines, leaving massive damage and 1 damage chipping to use vs the redemptor.

SecondTime wrote:

Darsath wrote:
All this chat about Eradicators and no one is mentioning how absurd the new Redemptor is for its points.

It's very good, but undone by said eradicators pretty easily. 2 damage weapons are best used vs the marines, leaving massive damage and 1 damage chipping to use vs the redemptor.

Isn't it T8 now? So most 1 damage weapons aren't as good anymore versus it.

 JNAProductions wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

Darsath wrote:
All this chat about Eradicators and no one is mentioning how absurd the new Redemptor is for its points.

It's very good, but undone by said eradicators pretty easily. 2 damage weapons are best used vs the marines, leaving massive damage and 1 damage chipping to use vs the redemptor.

Isn't it T8 now? So most 1 damage weapons aren't as good anymore versus it.

wait, so they upped the redemptor to T8 but dropped the leviathan to T7??

Nope redemptor is still T7. It's a wave serpent that punches. T7 13W, -1 damage.

SecondTime wrote:
Nope redemptor is still T7. It's a wave serpent that punches. T7 13W, -1 damage.

Oh, ok i was about to be even sadder about my WIP leviathan if that was the case.
Still, giving so much stuff serpent shields seems strange, its always been one of the strongest defensive abilities you could give to a unit.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Nope redemptor is still T7. It's a wave serpent that punches. T7 13W, -1 damage.

Oh, ok i was about to be even sadder about my WIP leviathan if that was the case.
Still, giving so much stuff serpent shields seems strange, its always been one of the strongest defensive abilities you could give to a unit.

It's less true now than it was in 8th.

SecondTime wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Nope redemptor is still T7. It's a wave serpent that punches. T7 13W, -1 damage.

Oh, ok i was about to be even sadder about my WIP leviathan if that was the case.
Still, giving so much stuff serpent shields seems strange, its always been one of the strongest defensive abilities you could give to a unit.

It's less true now than it was in 8th.

Because of the many new buffed heavy weapons? Its still strong even if youre getting shot at with damage 6 weapons. But yes, not AS good as before

 JNAProductions wrote:
Unless there's a rule that says "Fire Dragons get a free Wave Serpent," you need to account for the cost.

For what wave serpent? There wasn’t a wave serpent in any of the math I did?

And they need a transport more than Eradicators-both because they're more fragile and shorter ranged.

And Eradicators are slower, and less spammable.

Moreover, how are you getting the SWS in range of the Eradicators? Are you taking a transport? In which case, they now cost a lot more, and the transport is very vulnerable to Eradicators.

And the SWS pile out and torch the Eradicators. Mostly I was going to do it the same way the Eradicators were in range of not-within 24 stuff. I don’t know how, but I’ve been told it’s possible.

Do you honestly believe SWS or Fire Dragons are on par with Eradicators?

SWS is a resounding yes, Fire Dragons not quite yet, but I suspect they will be. MUCH cheaper troops and delivery choices, combined with the Elites instead of Heavy Support slot make them much easier to leverage.

Yeah it's not very impressive vs a heavy melta rifle or a heavy gauss cannon.

I hope I don't overstretch it and apologize if I do, but regarding Bretons point that other units can be spammed easier: IG can have 3 SWS max. That's 9 BS4+ meltashots (135 points). Lets be generous and add 3 command squads with another 12 meltashots (256 points) 3 full sized Scion (390 points) and Scion Command Squads (240 points) with 12 each. All combined IG can "spam" 45 × 12" Melta shots (9 of those with BS4+) for 931 points.

Eradicators alone (3×9) have 54 × 24" shots for EDIT 27×40= 1080 points.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
I hope I don't overstretch it and apologize if I do, but regarding Bretons point that other units can be spammed easier: IG can have 3 SWS max. That's 9 BS4+ meltashots (135 points). Lets be generous and add 3 command squads with another 12 meltashots (256 points) 3 full sized Scion (390 points) and Scion Command Squads (240 points) with 12 each. All combined IG can "spam" 45 × 12" Melta shots for 931 points)

Eradicators alone (3×9) have 54 × 24" shots for 18×40= 760 points.

Eradicators cap at 6, not 9.

So that's 3*6=18 Eradicators. Admittedly, you can take two MultiMeltas per squad of 6, so that's 8 shots (before double shoot) per 3 man Combat Squad, for a total of 48 24" Melta Shots.

Ok, fair point

Breton wrote:

Do you honestly believe SWS or Fire Dragons are on par with Eradicators?

SWS is a resounding yes, . . .

WAT?

Like not even close. 24" range covers so much more area than 12".

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

Do you honestly believe SWS or Fire Dragons are on par with Eradicators?

SWS is a resounding yes, . . .

WAT?

Like not even close. 24" range covers so much more area than 12".

They're also a crapton more fragile, and have less buffs available to them.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

Do you honestly believe SWS or Fire Dragons are on par with Eradicators?

SWS is a resounding yes, . . .

WAT?

Like not even close. 24" range covers so much more area than 12".

"yes but sws move faster"

SWS :
12" + 6", hits on 5+, can't advance and shoot

Erads:
24" + 5", hits on 3+, can advance and shoot at 4+.

So the real effective range of these units is :
SWS 18", Erads 32.5"

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

Do you honestly believe SWS or Fire Dragons are on par with Eradicators?

SWS is a resounding yes, . . .

WAT?

Like not even close. 24" range covers so much more area than 12".

They're also a crapton more fragile, and have less buffs available to them.

I mean, besides all that stuff too, obvioiusly.