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Breton wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Breton: again: IG can take maximum 3 SWS. Not 6.

I'll take Command Squads for 45 Alex. SWS are just one of the small Melta Squads that can be running around. Hell someone else already pointed out there could be 9 of the things running around if you mix and match Tempestus.

dude just give it up.
I think people are getting too worked up about eradicators but even I can see this line of argument isn't going to convince anyone.

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Breton: again: IG can take maximum 3 SWS. Not 6.

I'll take Command Squads for 45 Alex. SWS are just one of the small Melta Squads that can be running around. Hell someone else already pointed out there could be 9 of the things running around if you mix and match Tempestus.

dude just give it up.
I think people are getting too worked up about eradicators but even I can see this line of argument isn't going to convince anyone.

I'm pretty sure pointing out Command Squads can take Melta Guns will convince some people, 6 Melta Gun squads can be taken.

I haven't been "trying" to convince anyone for a while. They ask a question - and entertainingly its almost always prefaced with "honest question", I answer, they get apoplectic over some falsehood or strawman they want to throw up - SWS are the only way to get a small team of melta running around - I correct it. They rinse and repeat.

Breton wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Breton: again: IG can take maximum 3 SWS. Not 6.

I'll take Command Squads for 45 Alex. SWS are just one of the small Melta Squads that can be running around. Hell someone else already pointed out there could be 9 of the things running around if you mix and match Tempestus.

That was me by the way.

Command squads have BS 3+ and cost 6 Points/dude. So 24+ 40 = 64 points for 4 melta shots.
To do it again. If we take a look at the absolute Maximum Meltaspam IG can do:
3 SWS (135 Points) => 4.5 hits
3 CS (192 Points) => 8 hits
3 Tempestus CS (240 Points) => 8 hits
Full sized Tempestus Scions (each 190) => 2.66 hits each
So far everything at 12''

3x Servitors (72) with 2 MM each (6 x 35 = 210, right?) and a Techpriest (35) for BS 4+ (317 Points in total) => 6 hits, but at 24'' range

So in its extreme (you talked about spamming) we could fit in a 2000 Point batallion (we have to take 2 Commanders for 70 Points)
all of the above + 5.5 Tempestus Squads and reach 1999 Points (note that we would have to many elite choices but ignore that for the Moment.)
This extreme Meltaspam list would reach 35.17 melta HITS at 12'' and 6 at 24''.

So compare that to Marine Meltaspam that is possible:
3 x 6 Eradicators with MM (840 Points) => 32 melta HITS at 24'' range.
Add attack bikes, Land speeders and other infantry that can wield meltas and you see that marines can spam more Melta for less Points at higher range with more durability.

Breton wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Breton: again: IG can take maximum 3 SWS. Not 6.

I'll take Command Squads for 45 Alex. SWS are just one of the small Melta Squads that can be running around. Hell someone else already pointed out there could be 9 of the things running around if you mix and match Tempestus.

Not sure how you're taking a Command Squad (regular or Tempestus) loaded with meltaguns for 45 points but ok.
Also that's 9 Elite slots, so you'll need a second Detachment.
Plus you need 1 Tempestor Prime per Tempestus Command Squad and 1 <Regiment> Commander per regular Command Squad.

Why is it that spending 1 Heavy Support slot on an Eradictor unit is seen as a massive detriment, but 3-6 HQs and 9-12 Elites (and a second Detachment) is not?

@ Matt.Kingsley: totally forgot that you need a Fitting commander for each Command squad. So my calculation in the last post is too high for a 2000 Points army. You would have to shave of one of the Tempestos Squads to fit in the 3 necessary Tempestors (120 Points) and the 3rd Commander (35 Points). So we would land at slightly less than 32 melta HITS at 12'' range. Or slightly less than the 3 x 6 Eradicators do at 24'' range for less than half the Points

EDIT But of course the IG army would still have thos 6 MM hits from the servitors that the SM army had to balance with one of their various other melter options.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Breton: again: IG can take maximum 3 SWS. Not 6.

I'll take Command Squads for 45 Alex. SWS are just one of the small Melta Squads that can be running around. Hell someone else already pointed out there could be 9 of the things running around if you mix and match Tempestus.

Not sure how you're taking a Command Squad (regular or Tempestus) loaded with meltaguns for 45 points but ok.
Also that's 9 Elite slots, so you'll need a second Detachment.
Plus you need 1 Tempestor Prime per Tempestus Command Squad and 1 <Regiment> Commander per regular Command Squad.

Why is it that spending 1 Heavy Support slot on an Eradictor unit is seen as a massive detriment, but 3-6 HQs and 9-12 Elites (and a second Detachment) is not?

You're right they're not 45 - that was the number for something else. SWS? Something stuck in my head about 45 points.

I'ts not a massive detriment. HS slots for Marines are kind of thin right now anyway. But it's also not 6+ slots deep in a Batallion like Elite slot. And if I'm playing Guard I'm already likely taking a Brigade - which allows 12 Infantry Squads, 3+ HQ's, and a crapton of Elites.. Truth be told I'm probably taking a Brigade, and a Spearhead for some Leman Russ. If I take LR.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Matt.Kingsley: totally forgot that you need a Fitting commander for each Command squad. So my calculation in the last post is too high for a 2000 Points army. You would have to shave of one of the Tempestos Squads to fit in the 3 necessary Tempestors (120 Points) and the 3rd Commander (35 Points). So we would land at slightly less than 32 melta HITS at 12'' range. Or slightly less than the 3 x 6 Eradicators do at 24'' range for less than half the Points

EDIT But of course the IG army would still have thos 6 MM hits from the servitors that the SM army had to balance with one of their various other melter options.

That's OK, I was only "counting" 6 as a "pure" Guard instead of mix and match.

@ Breton: but do you see, that IG can not spam Melta for cheap compared with Marines? And that Command Squads and Scions have to pay 10 points per meltagun?

By the way just that I don't argument wrongly, is my memory correct that the new 2 shot MM are 35 points on platforms like Servitors?

Wow. Still going after the red text. That's dedication.

Just outright ban this Ultramarine fanboy guy, there's no point in arguing with a toxic troll that denies evidence for the sake of his argumentations

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Just outright ban this Ultramarine fanboy guy, there's no point in arguing with a toxic troll that denies evidence for the sake of his argumentations

I don't think that's necessary.

At this point I think it might be. He’s one of the biggest shot posters I’ve ever seen next to a couple of other select names.

There really is kind of an artform to figuring out what's really good, I think. It's more than just counting melta shots. I know that even three eradicators would change movement phase pretty significantly. That's really good.

The thing is a major part of this forum is people disagreeing over unit stats - in bad faith or otherwise. If they all eventually go, its just going to be "but I liked 5th edition" "but I didn't" "no but you don't get it - I really liked 5th edition" - repeat until heat death of the universe.

It would be great to try and stimulate some debate into how the going second disadvantage could be reduced for all armies beyond Harlequins and Slaanesh Daemons - but I don't think many posters are interested.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Breton: but do you see, that IG can not spam Melta for cheap compared with Marines? And that Command Squads and Scions have to pay 10 points per meltagun?

6 Melta squads, each about half the price or less of an Erads squad. Most even cheaper than 1 MM AB "squad"? Sure sounds like they can.

By the way just that I don't argument wrongly, is my memory correct that the new 2 shot MM are 35 points on platforms like Servitors?

Not even with the Servitor included. At least according to CA2020.

Breton wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Breton: again: IG can take maximum 3 SWS. Not 6.

I'll take Command Squads for 45 Alex. SWS are just one of the small Melta Squads that can be running around. Hell someone else already pointed out there could be 9 of the things running around if you mix and match Tempestus.

Not sure how you're taking a Command Squad (regular or Tempestus) loaded with meltaguns for 45 points but ok.
Also that's 9 Elite slots, so you'll need a second Detachment.
Plus you need 1 Tempestor Prime per Tempestus Command Squad and 1 <Regiment> Commander per regular Command Squad.

Why is it that spending 1 Heavy Support slot on an Eradictor unit is seen as a massive detriment, but 3-6 HQs and 9-12 Elites (and a second Detachment) is not?

You're right they're not 45 - that was the number for something else. SWS? Something stuck in my head about 45 points.

I'ts not a massive detriment. HS slots for Marines are kind of thin right now anyway. But it's also not 6+ slots deep in a Batallion like Elite slot. And if I'm playing Guard I'm already likely taking a Brigade - which allows 12 Infantry Squads, 3+ HQ's, and a crapton of Elites.. Truth be told I'm probably taking a Brigade, and a Spearhead for some Leman Russ. If I take LR.

If you're taking 12 Infantry Squads and all these Command Squads, SWS & duplicate Commanders, you're not going to have enough points for a proper Spearhead of Leman Russes, unless you want all the non-Tempestus Command Squads and the SWS to forgo their transports. At that point, you might as well just use the Leman Russes to fill out the HS slots of the Brigade (instead of something cheaper and less effective) and just take a Patrol or squeeze a Battalion in for your extra HQs and Elites.

At that point you have a bunch of squishy, short-ranged dudes with decent firepower that maybe has a transport; a couple of units of short ranged dudes that can deep strike but are easily screened; and maybe a few tanks with actual firepower. Everything else are just slow, paper-mache flashlights.

And after all that, the heavy firepower from the few non-vehicle units is still quite a bit worse than that of 3 full strength Eliminator units. And the marines have far more points to spare on other units that are just as good as the Eliminators while also not needing to spend points on tax units like Sentinels or the excessive Commanders.

SecondTime wrote:
There really is kind of an artform to figuring out what's really good, I think. It's more than just counting melta shots. I know that even three eradicators would change movement phase pretty significantly. That's really good.

More than just counting T5 and 3+ too. Nobody has even thought to point out armies like Nids could/would have the unit numbers to shoot the Infantry squads AND the Melta squads. And I've been waiting for it. But not holding my breath, knowing the Marine laser focus around here. Almost nobody REALLY wants to talk about balance, or improving someone ELSE's army for that balance. Watch the rare non-Marine thread. Everyone loves the Guard until you start talking about some of the problems they have and fixing those instead of how much worse off they are than Marines. Guard have issues, I've brought it up before. I've been thoroughly entertained to see the same people argue those problems don't need to be fixed (unless it can be swung around to fixing it by nerfing Marines). For Example: Guard and Tau have two of the worst Troop Point to Filled Detachment ratios. They also have a dearth of close combat units in a close combat edition. Guard have the worst/squishiest HQ's, period as GW tries/appears-to-be-trying to get a secondary game-within-the-game going with Snipers and Bodyguards.

How many months ago was I pointing out Eradicators were overhyped, and pointing at AB's, Speeders, and ATVs? Same-ish results, on a faster platform for Super Melta, in the even thinner FA slot opening up HS for Grav Devs that don't care about their "nerf" and still outshine Heavy Bolters 99% of the time. Nobody cared or listened. Must Nerf Eradicators. Hellblasters just got a boost. But they got a boost on the loads most people didn't make, so it's going to take a while (even compared to normal Covid "a whiles") for people to get more kits and build the "good" version(s). OC'able Assault 3 S6 -4 D1 that fits in an Impulsor with Assault Vehicle (which is probably overkill as they're Assault 3 and can just advance not Rapid Fire and slow)

Breton wrote:
Everyone loves the Guard until you start talking about some of the problems they have and fixing those instead of how much worse off they are than Marines.

Bruh, I'm a Guard player and I argued for most of 8th Ed that Guardsmen were underpriced. If we want to talk about changes to Guard, I also dislike the shoot-twice implementation of Grinding Advance, the artificiality and lopsided balance of Orders, how Commissars were nerfed into irrelevance, how Conscripts are the same price as Infantry Squads but just worse, and how Command Squads are just better Special Weapons Squads.

There are things I think should be nerfed, things I think should be buffed, and things I think should be changed for just about every faction. This whole 'everyone just hates Marines' shtick gets really tiresome.

Breton wrote:
How many months ago was I pointing out Eradicators were overhyped, and pointing at AB's, Speeders, and ATVs? Same-ish results, on a faster platform for Super Melta, in the even thinner FA slot opening up HS for Grav Devs that don't care about their "nerf" and still outshine Heavy Bolters 99% of the time. Nobody cared or listened.

Nobody missed that. Yes, those are all effective anti-tank now too.

But you seem to be under the impression that this indicates Eradicators are balanced units, and not that Marines now have a variety of over-the-top anti-tank options thanks to the huge multimelta buff. And yes, these are all overpowered, not the new standard that surely everyone else's codex will bring them up to- because a game where all units can delete their value of the enemy in one turn and games are over at the end of the second battle round is not a game that anyone wants to show up to, and given that Necrons didn't get that treatment, it seems unlikely to actually happen.

Eradicators are the focus because their stats were revealed before the melta change, so at that point these multimelta platforms weren't nearly as good. And because they're easy to compare to other anti-tank infantry. And because they don't pay for mobility like ABs, Speeders, and ATVs, so they have a much better chance to make their points back in one volley. And because they're a new unit explicitly designed with these capabilities, rather than a potential platform indirectly benefiting from a weapon buff. And because the people who defended them before keep defending them now.

On the previous page I posted a sample of high-placing tournament lists that feature Eradicators. If you're still convinced that Special Weapon Squads are just as good, show us the tournament lists that use them.

Breton wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
There really is kind of an artform to figuring out what's really good, I think. It's more than just counting melta shots. I know that even three eradicators would change movement phase pretty significantly. That's really good.

More than just counting T5 and 3+ too. Nobody has even thought to point out armies like Nids could/would have the unit numbers to shoot the Infantry squads AND the Melta squads. And I've been waiting for it. But not holding my breath, knowing the Marine laser focus around here. Almost nobody REALLY wants to talk about balance, or improving someone ELSE's army for that balance. Watch the rare non-Marine thread. Everyone loves the Guard until you start talking about some of the problems they have and fixing those instead of how much worse off they are than Marines. Guard have issues, I've brought it up before. I've been thoroughly entertained to see the same people argue those problems don't need to be fixed (unless it can be swung around to fixing it by nerfing Marines). For Example: Guard and Tau have two of the worst Troop Point to Filled Detachment ratios. They also have a dearth of close combat units in a close combat edition. Guard have the worst/squishiest HQ's, period as GW tries/appears-to-be-trying to get a secondary game-within-the-game going with Snipers and Bodyguards.

How many months ago was I pointing out Eradicators were overhyped, and pointing at AB's, Speeders, and ATVs? Same-ish results, on a faster platform for Super Melta, in the even thinner FA slot opening up HS for Grav Devs that don't care about their "nerf" and still outshine Heavy Bolters 99% of the time. Nobody cared or listened. Must Nerf Eradicators. Hellblasters just got a boost. But they got a boost on the loads most people didn't make, so it's going to take a while (even compared to normal Covid "a whiles") for people to get more kits and build the "good" version(s). OC'able Assault 3 S6 -4 D1 that fits in an Impulsor with Assault Vehicle (which is probably overkill as they're Assault 3 and can just advance not Rapid Fire and slow)

As a learning necron player, I can tell you that the eradicators will change my movement patterns way more than the IG melta squads. Assuming I ever see IG melta squads. To match the firepower, they have to get what? 8 melta guardsmen within 12" to match 3 eradicators at 24". That's much much harder. How are 8 melta guardsmen going to survive the gauss gauntlet?

Breton wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
There really is kind of an artform to figuring out what's really good, I think. It's more than just counting melta shots. I know that even three eradicators would change movement phase pretty significantly. That's really good.

More than just counting T5 and 3+ too. Nobody has even thought to point out armies like Nids could/would have the unit numbers to shoot the Infantry squads AND the Melta squads. And I've been waiting for it. But not holding my breath, knowing the Marine laser focus around here. Almost nobody REALLY wants to talk about balance, or improving someone ELSE's army for that balance. Watch the rare non-Marine thread. Everyone loves the Guard until you start talking about some of the problems they have and fixing those instead of how much worse off they are than Marines. Guard have issues, I've brought it up before. I've been thoroughly entertained to see the same people argue those problems don't need to be fixed (unless it can be swung around to fixing it by nerfing Marines). For Example: Guard and Tau have two of the worst Troop Point to Filled Detachment ratios. They also have a dearth of close combat units in a close combat edition. Guard have the worst/squishiest HQ's, period as GW tries/appears-to-be-trying to get a secondary game-within-the-game going with Snipers and Bodyguards.

How many months ago was I pointing out Eradicators were overhyped, and pointing at AB's, Speeders, and ATVs? Same-ish results, on a faster platform for Super Melta, in the even thinner FA slot opening up HS for Grav Devs that don't care about their "nerf" and still outshine Heavy Bolters 99% of the time. Nobody cared or listened. Must Nerf Eradicators. Hellblasters just got a boost. But they got a boost on the loads most people didn't make, so it's going to take a while (even compared to normal Covid "a whiles") for people to get more kits and build the "good" version(s). OC'able Assault 3 S6 -4 D1 that fits in an Impulsor with Assault Vehicle (which is probably overkill as they're Assault 3 and can just advance not Rapid Fire and slow)

I'm not sure you're making the point you want to make.

If you're trying to say "Marines are way too good, even if Eradicators were deleted wholesale!" then job well done. If you're trying to say Eradicators aren't an issue... Not so much.

Breton wrote:

Look at the entire argument. Retributors don't count because No Reason. Arguing Semantically was the "rules" of the argument. Even you're about to do it. T3 5+ that isn't shot at is a lot more durable than T5 3+ that is. I already pointed out a MEQ priced army could have (generally at best) 10 units to "act" (read shoot/fight) opposing units. With 12 Infantry squads on objectives, and 6 little melta units running around, something isn't being shot at. Well except for the guy who thinks his Vanguard Vet unit is going to be running around 6 different places wiping out 6 different units all at once.

When the premise of the argument is to change 20 points per melta shot to everyone else pays more for Multi Meltas - except for the only other unit he can think of that can take Multi Meltas so honestly there are no other candidates - How else BUT semantically is this argument supposed to play out? My little joke about left boots being larger than right boots and "doesn't count" was about this exact thing - using semantics and laser focused cherry picking to so limit the paradigm. No other T5 3+ Melta unit is as cheap as Erads because Erads are the only T5 3+ melta unit

And SWS are 1 Melta shot per 20ish points(less if you don't count the ablative wound), on a BS4 body nobody is shooting at because they're drowning in T3 1W 5+ bodies. There's more than one road to durability.

Yes but you are completely ignoring the fact their durability is significantly higher, and 2x the range as well as BS3 vs BS4. Well, I don't want to say completely ignoring, you are minimizing their importance dramatically which makes your argument look weaker by comparison because nobody actually thinks those are small details the way your argument is framing them.

12 Infantry Squads, 3 SWS and 3 Command Squads require 18 units to shoot at them. That's a special kind of durability all its own.

If you only upgrade the SWS and command squads with melta guns and nothing else, and keep SWS at minimum size thats 927pts for 150 T3 5+ save wounds. And in all honesty, I would be beside myself with joy if that was my opponents army, because I am going to gut it rather quickly. Your argument relies on your opponent being flooded by bodies and not being able to choose target priorities correctly due to force applied. The problem is, even my ork lists would prioritize those melta squads first, and do so at 3x the range of those melta guns. I don't need to worry about the guardsmen because without any meaningful upgrades they are just cannon fodder and ork boyz can easily hold an objective against them. So can SM for that matter. So why waste shots on them.

5 Intercessors are killing 3.7 Command squad or SWS guys a turn, A 3 man unit of Aggressors is popping 8+ a turn on average rolls, point being is that you don't need 18 units to kill this, you need 6. Because once those 6 melta squads are gone the guard player is left with 120 flashlights, which if every single one is in rapid fire range inflicts a grand total of 13.3 dmg to a marine player, or enough to kill just shy of 7 Marines. Not exactly frightening is it?

Breton wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Breton: honest question: why do you think nobody would shoot at SWS because "they are drowning in T3 5+ bodies"?

If you are facing lots of T3 5+, isn't it pretty obvious that you should shoot at the dudes holding meltas (and trying to get into 12" range) first?
Why should anyone think he should better clear the lasgun holding infantry squads first?

EDIT: and please take BS into account when comparing price/Melta shot.

Well sure, you could shoot the meltas first. But you give up the Objectives and VPs. Who here isn't willing to trade 45 points for 5 VP?

And this is actually a decent argument, i agree, I would gladly give up a small squad of infantry if it netted me 5VP. The problem is though that those Marines can just as easily walk up the board, blast your melta unit into oblivion and than charge the guard squad holding the Obj and easily win there as well. 5 Intercessors kill about 5 guardsmen a turn in CC. So if they get onto the objective with a guard unit after nuking a Melta unit, they are either contesting or slightly losing but will win the following turn. Those 5 guardsmen left returning attacks basically bounce off the SM armor. And atm we are now talking about this 1 Intercessor unit gunning down 1 Command squad of melta guns (64pts) and then getting into a punching match with 50pts of guard, and they only cost 100pts. So in a single turn, they killed the Melta unit and 25pts or so of guardsmen, a 89pt return on investment for a 100pt unit, That is amazingly good.

You could change the opposing force to my orkz, or to necrons or whomever, the result stays the same, IG lose badly against any kind of remotely good list.

Long story short, no guard player in 9th is going to spam infantry like this unless they are going for a fluffy army, because if they bring this to a tournament they will get...eradicated (pun intended )

I know necrons are more than happy to push warriors into guardsmen with meltas.

" But you give up the Objectives and VPs. Who here isn't willing to trade 45 points for 5 VP?"

Again, VV with storm shields take the objective and laugh at the melta guardsmen. That's just one obvious counter to this. Or triple redemptor build just murder ALL the guardsmen.

A bit more back to topic what Marines can not do: I think (But again am willing to be convinced otherwise), that they cannot spam overcharged plasma as easily as for example guard. Each melta wearing dude in the example above can have a plasmagun/cannon instead, each officer or sergant a plasma pistol and Armored sentinels can also run around with plasmacannons for 45 points. And none of these units hurts as much when lost to overheating as a Marine.

I don't know to which extend this is mitigated by rerolls, but it is something that came to mind regarding the original question.

Sternguard, Helblasters, Inceptors and Ravenwing Knights disagree

 Jidmah wrote:
Sternguard, Helblasters, Inceptors and Ravenwing Knights disagree

If the question is - who spams this weapon type best. I think that answer is marines...hands down. If not solely for the fact the platforms aren't susceptible to light weapons. They also hit on 3's at a minimum.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Sternguard, Helblasters, Inceptors and Ravenwing Knights disagree

If the question is - who spams this weapon type best. I think that answer is marines...hands down. If not solely for the fact the platforms aren't susceptible to light weapons. They also hit on 3's at a minimum.

This is true and something that Breton doesn't seem to understand at all. A very high value weapon like a plasma or melta gun is way more valuable on a durable chassis that doesn't die to a stiff breeze.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Sternguard, Helblasters, Inceptors and Ravenwing Knights disagree

If the question is - who spams this weapon type best. I think that answer is marines...hands down. If not solely for the fact the platforms aren't susceptible to light weapons. They also hit on 3's at a minimum.

This is true and something that Breton doesn't seem to understand at all. A very high value weapon like a plasma or melta gun is way more valuable on a durable chassis that doesn't die to a stiff breeze.

Plasma a little less because 1s kill the unit from max W. I'd rather my plasma platform be point efficient above all else. Melta on the other hand, the enemy can't wait for me to kill myself.

Even then Marines have a lot of access to reroll auras to mitigate that.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Just outright ban this Ultramarine fanboy guy, there's no point in arguing with a toxic troll that denies evidence for the sake of his argumentations

HE DISAGREES WITH ME! BAN HIM! BAN HIM!

*eye roll*

BrianDavion wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Just outright ban this Ultramarine fanboy guy, there's no point in arguing with a toxic troll that denies evidence for the sake of his argumentations

HE DISAGREES WITH ME! BAN HIM! BAN HIM!

*eye roll*

Theres a difference between disagreeing and arguing in bad faith.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Just outright ban this Ultramarine fanboy guy, there's no point in arguing with a toxic troll that denies evidence for the sake of his argumentations

HE DISAGREES WITH ME! BAN HIM! BAN HIM!

*eye roll*

Theres a difference between disagreeing and arguing in bad faith.

LOL bad faith... that's,, like,,, your opinion, man.