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Now that all marines have been blessed with 2 wounds (Thank you!!)

Are tacticals with their ability to take Heavy and Special Weapons and a multitude of Transports (Rhino, Razorback, Land Raider, Drop Pod) a better choice for a Space Marine army than Intercessors.

Note I said Intercessors, not Infiltrators etc.

I certainly think so, which is neat if you're an SM player. I think there's value in 3x10 Tacs in Rhinos who rush to midboard, dump out and combat-squads into a few little 5-mans to avoid morale and whatnot, and go from there.

What's the real difference we're looking at here...? Some weapons variation and cheaper cost for Tacs, vs an extra Attack for Intercessors.
Overall Tacs are looking like the sweeter option again, but the Chapter makes a big difference. That extra Attack is going to be more attractive for Blood Angels and Space Wolves in particular.

 Super Ready wrote:
What's the real difference we're looking at here...? Some weapons variation and cheaper cost for Tacs, vs an extra Attack for Intercessors.
Overall Tacs are looking like the sweeter option again, but the Chapter makes a big difference. That extra Attack is going to be more attractive for Blood Angels and Space Wolves in particular.

Well, we're looking at price - tacs are cheaper per model, which dampens the cost of those special weapons, which leads me to:
we're looking at firepower - 2 special weapons and 1 heavy weapon in a squad is nothing to shake a stick at. Make it all plasma/grav (iirc) and you'll mulch other Marine armies much more quickly than the pure Intercessors.
we're looking at speed - the mobility options (e.g. drop pods) are better and more suited to their role for tactical marines, imo. Impulsor is a saving grace for Primaris though, but Razorbacks are a staple unit of the SM stable, Rhinos are cheap and durable for cost, and Drop Pods are ... well, drop pods. XD

Old school mechanized Tac squads in Razorbacks are super solid for anything short of bleeding edge competitive level play thanks to the second wound.

Waay better than Intercessors, imo.

They're good because GW has miscosted tactical marine gear on top of the tactical marines themselves. I guess that's why every unit that's good is good, I suppose.

I still think assault intercessors and bolt rifle intercessors are better bare bones options just because of the extra ap on their weapons.

The Salt Mine wrote:
I still think assault intercessors and bolt rifle intercessors are better bare bones options just because of the extra ap on their weapons.

They aren't. Grav and plasma are nuts right now.

Tacs with a grav or a MM and a combi plas are killers for cheap. Pretty durable too. Primaris are weak in comparison.

Can't overlook melee effectiveness in 9th, but in general for shooting Tacs are better.

You can make an argument for either, depending on your chapter and army composition.

Quasistellar wrote:
Can't overlook melee effectiveness in 9th, but in general for shooting Tacs are better.

You can make an argument for either, depending on your chapter and army composition.

A tac is just -1 attack. They still get +1 attack first round and there are many other ways to get bonus attacks as well. Assault ints aren't bad. Issue is - VV are massively better.

Well, good/bad/?, they form the core of all but one* of my existing SM forces. And will for years to come.... so the extra wound is greatly appreciated.

* The exception is my all dread force.

Eventually ill get the marine 1/2 of my indom box assembled, but it won't be here in 2020.
And even when that happens I think I'll form them into an all new force rather than add them to my DA or Mentors as I have a color scheme in mind that won't really match either.

Quasistellar wrote:
Can't overlook melee effectiveness in 9th, but in general for shooting Tacs are better.

You can make an argument for either, depending on your chapter and army composition.

So... Space marines are better at shooting, primaris are better at melee, but space marines have the high end melee wargear (on non sergeant models) and jump packs (on non shooting units)?

I don’t know how good basic assault marines are, but if you have stuff like vanguard and death company covering your shooting angle you probably don’t really need assault intercessors.

I feel like the only thing holding Firstborn back is the deliberately missing support through stratagems. They're still in a good spot when compared to other factions, though.

Quasistellar wrote:
Can't overlook melee effectiveness in 9th, but in general for shooting Tacs are better.

You can make an argument for either, depending on your chapter and army composition.

Even for BA, tacs are way better.

Those two points under intercessors basically gives them a free heavy weapon per 5 man squad and that bastly overcompensates the minus ap and 6" in the bolters and the 1A. Add a couple of cheap specials or comby weapons and pum!

 Galas wrote:
Those two points under intercessors basically gives them a free heavy weapon per 5 man squad and that bastly overcompensates the minus ap and 6" in the bolters and the 1A. Add a couple of cheap specials or comby weapons and pum!

As I've stated in a couple of other threads, I can't believe they did this. Shocked. Well, not that shocked.

IMHO BTW the BEST troops for marines of any type is proably the space wolf grey Hunter. same cost as a tac marine, but their chainsword means they actually are superior to intercessors in melee.

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO BTW the BEST troops for marines of any type is proably the space wolf grey Hunter. same cost as a tac marine, but their chainsword means they actually are superior to intercessors in melee.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO BTW the BEST troops for marines of any type is proably the space wolf grey Hunter. same cost as a tac marine, but their chainsword means they actually are superior to intercessors in melee.

Yep - same as always. space wolves are just better because space wolves. For free ofc.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tacs with a grav or a MM and a combi plas are killers for cheap. Pretty durable too. Primaris are weak in comparison.

Yeah, they really should give primaris something to compensate, like 5+ FNP to represent their furnace organ. Of course then you run into issue that while it would fix intercessors, it could be potentially OP on stuff like bladeguard or captains. It just proves again that the decision to give 2W to squats was beyond idiotic (save for maybe veterans/terminators, and chosen on CSM side) and destroyed both internal and external balance of the whole faction.

Oh well, at least dumb sQaTtEd whining died down, outside those who were just mindlessly trolling, so at least there's that...

SecondTime wrote:
They're good because GW has miscosted tactical marine gear on top of the tactical marines themselves. I guess that's why every unit that's good is good, I suppose.

Yes, they miscosted the troop unit that is about double or more what most other armies are paying. And the gear that hasn’t changed much since last edition but nobody complained about.

 Irbis wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tacs with a grav or a MM and a combi plas are killers for cheap. Pretty durable too. Primaris are weak in comparison.

Yeah, they really should give primaris something to compensate,

They are, they're called Heavy Intercessors, and with them you can get your supah marine fantasy back on.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tacs with a grav or a MM and a combi plas are killers for cheap. Pretty durable too. Primaris are weak in comparison.

Yeah, they really should give primaris something to compensate,

They are, they're called Heavy Intercessors, and with them you can get your supah marine fantasy back on.

dude eneugh,
as it is Primareis are the only units with access to the transhuman physilogy strat, that to me reflects their ability to take a shot and keep on fighting that might incapacitate even a marine

Better than they were but still not as good as intercessors. Two points gets you longer range, AP on the gun, and an extra attack per model. Still have value because rhinos are cheap transport options they can take advantage of and simply being cheaper while being as durable with no strats might make them superior backfield objective sitters.

 Irbis wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tacs with a grav or a MM and a combi plas are killers for cheap. Pretty durable too. Primaris are weak in comparison.

Yeah, they really should give primaris something to compensate, like 5+ FNP to represent their furnace organ. Of course then you run into issue that while it would fix intercessors, it could be potentially OP on stuff like bladeguard or captains. It just proves again that the decision to give 2W to squats was beyond idiotic (save for maybe veterans/terminators, and chosen on CSM side) and destroyed both internal and external balance of the whole faction.

Oh well, at least dumb sQaTtEd whining died down, outside those who were just mindlessly trolling, so at least there's that...

I'm OK with having to make a hard choice or mix and match. Getting a 6-of-one-half-dozen-of-the-other feeling on Intercessor vs. Tactical is a good thing.

As for squatting Old Marines, they still are. But they telegraphed it way too hard and too early so I'm betting all the kits were gathering dust between that and their quality vs Primaris. This will sell off the kits. Of course I wasn't whining either. I've gotten 20 years out of my tacticals, I figure I got my money's worth. If they make new old marine kits then I might start doubting it.

The only folks who should be whining are the ones who got in at the end of 7th or so, and the people who bought a Land Raider Terminus Ultra. Man that has to be painful.

Edit to Add: I will take that back on one footing. Between all the Impulsor top choices it pretty well rivals the Razorback so the choice is 50/50 most of the time. Not being able to mix and match with Pods is kind of annoying. Its past time to allow Primaris in a Pod, or give them a Pod to use. The Bunker should have been a little toned down and allow 5-10 Intercessors to land inside of it. Likewise the Pod should have its offense upped a bit. Being able to drop a Heavy Bolter that shoots everything within 36" is a bit extreme. Being able to drop a Stormbolter that shoots everything within 24" less so.

The thing that jumps out at me is that there is a reasonable argument for either now, where one did not exist before. I think it's pretty cool.

Seabass wrote:
The thing that jumps out at me is that there is a reasonable argument for either now, where one did not exist before. I think it's pretty cool.

Exactly. You've got (usually) minimum three troop choices. Taking one of each and a Something Else sounds pretty good to me. Of course I've always been a sucker for one of everything lists.

Dropping 40 tacs, and 4 Pods on 4 different objectives (especially in the missions where the are only 4) Round 1 Turn 1 also has potential to be a thing. You have to have a plan for going second with that list of course, but going first it's a no brainer. Even going second, if the mission has 6 objectives you can almost certainly land on 3 and contest a fourth. If it has four, you can land on two and contest a third, or a third and a fourth. About the only time I suspect you couldn't is vs an Infiltrate heavy army (likely to be fragile), or a mirror army where the game is won or lost on that single dice roll. I'd also make sure before the game you both agree not to count the doors. You're going to get a ton of practically free VP turn 2.

Breton wrote:

Seabass wrote:
The thing that jumps out at me is that there is a reasonable argument for either now, where one did not exist before. I think it's pretty cool.

Exactly. You've got (usually) minimum three troop choices. Taking one of each and a Something Else sounds pretty good to me. Of course I've always been a sucker for one of everything lists.

Dropping 40 tacs, and 4 Pods on 4 different objectives (especially in the missions where the are only 4) Round 1 Turn 1 also has potential to be a thing. You have to have a plan for going second with that list of course, but going first it's a no brainer. Even going second, if the mission has 6 objectives you can almost certainly land on 3 and contest a fourth. If it has four, you can land on two and contest a third, or a third and a fourth. About the only time I suspect you couldn't is vs an Infiltrate heavy army (likely to be fragile), or a mirror army where the game is won or lost on that single dice roll. I'd also make sure before the game you both agree not to count the doors. You're going to get a ton of practically free VP turn 2.

I don't know about 4 of them, but 2 squads in rhinos and 2 squads in drop pods (I play blood angels) has been good for me so far. Follow them up with some sanguinary guard with the new Sanguinor rules (man, I hope he stays the same in the BA codex) and some dreads (like a Libby dread and maybe a few redemptors or invictors), and it's been fun to play and pretty good. Probably not competitive, but it's been solid enough.