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So... when 2w tacticals was announced, I was actually looking forward to differentiated troops options, where scouts filled a very different role than regular marines where they're far less durable, while still having some sort of role as cheap guys who needed to be removed. (Sniper scouts were better differentiated, specialists but still pretty flimsy and not hugely powerful.)

Esp. in smaller games where efficiency starts to matter more, I felt like they had a decent role.

But now they're elite? So, ignoring whatever confusing rationale led to this, does anyone have any experience with this shift? Is there any merit to taking them, well, in any role? What's their 9th edition position?

I'm selling them or dumping them in the trash when I move.

Dark Angel scouts were Elites for a long time in previous editions. I dont see why its hugely confusing as a concept.

I still use a couple sniper squads but even then with eliminators...

I've never liked scouts - their models are terrible. Land speeder storms are pretty cool though.

They're now Elites but what about those Primaris equivalents that didn't have the same treatment?

 Flinty wrote:
Dark Angel scouts were Elites for a long time in previous editions. I dont see why its hugely confusing as a concept.

I think it's bizarre narratively that newbs are elites. I find it bizarre mechanically that flimsy guys with poor stats are elites (before even adding the issues of competing with stronger options). If they really wanted scouts out of troops choices, it seems like dividing them into basic scouts fast (with movement/deployment shenanigans and a fast transport, along with rievers who also are movement-based and don't pack much of a punch) and maybe throw snipers into heavy or elite (as ranged specialists) might make sense. But, cheap goons with bolters or pistols and no real punch doesn't fit an elite slot, how I think of the role.

But, sure, let's go with that precedent. How have DA players used them, in that case?


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're now Elites but what about those Primaris equivalents that didn't have the same treatment?

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. That, too.

I loved scouts, and I like my old metal models too.
One more straw on the collective yet imminent shift to a parallel rules system, basically modern second Ed.

Having Scouts as Elites might have made sense when their only downside was a point off the WS, BS and Armour save, and they were just about the only infiltrating Marine unit.
Since Primaris - where virtually every other choice in the book has 2+ Wounds, and there's another Troop choice that takes their role that are literally called Infiltrators - they don't belong in Elites at all.

I would agree with putting them into Fast Attack and possibly sniper scouts into Heavy Support. But Elites is completely the wrong choice.

 Super Ready wrote:
Having Scouts as Elites might have made sense when their only downside was a point off the WS, BS and Armour save, and they were just about the only infiltrating Marine unit.
Since Primaris - where virtually every other choice in the book has 2+ Wounds, and there's another Troop choice that takes their role that are literally called Infiltrators - they don't belong in Elites at all.

I would agree with putting them into Fast Attack and possibly sniper scouts into Heavy Support. But Elites is completely the wrong choice.

Not if they were going for soft squat.

I have another 10 to paint so now thats on hold

I really liked them as cheap troops units to have hide in buildings/avoid deepstrikers/scout up

They should have been fast attack.

As Elites they are hot, steaming garbage in a dumpster that is spontaneously combusting on a summer day.

I haven't played for a couple of editions, but putting them in an elite slot back in the day when you only ever had 3 elite slots meant that you didn't take them very much in a green wing army. They had a place in Deathwing and Ravenwing armies when you had swapped terminator or bikes into the troops slots though.

It did mean though that the core troops of the army were in fact core troops, I.e. tactical marines, rather than the supposedly rather more rare trainees.

They're elites so that they're not taken as cheap troops. It's a little strange but I'm ok with it.

It means I could take 6 Tacs and 6 Scout Squads in an army, which might be kinda fun.

Basically that - they don't fit as the cornerstone of the army.


The sad truth is the 'elites' slot is becoming more meaningless- its whatever doesn't fit elsewhere.

Voss wrote:
Basically that - they don't fit as the cornerstone of the army.


The sad truth is the 'elites' slot is becoming more meaningless- its whatever doesn't fit elsewhere.

They probably should have stayed troops, but gotten a modifier so they weren't taken as ALL the troops (i.e. Max 1 per non-Scout Troop Choice or something similar to the Forgeworld Relic rule). Maybe they could've gone FA, and kept ObSec.

I always took my scouts as snipers (and prior to this move after Eliminators came out) took my snipers as scouts. I preferred 10 sniper scouts to 3/6 Eliminators.

When Eliminators came out you could get 3 in a VERY contested slot for ~90 and you could get 10 sniper scouts for ~150 in a slot you had to buy something for anyway.

Between the price increase, loss of ObSec, and inferior sniping skills Eliminators are the better option now.

BP/CCW scouts are going to be competing somewhat with Veteran Intercessors and especially with Vanguard Vets - but any price savings will almost need to be spent on the Storm making that a dubious competition.

Bolter/Shotgun Scouts probably aren't good enough to compete with anything. Might be decent as a Space Marine version of Trukk Boyz or something, but without ObSec again why?

So many of the things you took scouts for because they were scouts as opposed to being the absolutely cheapest troop unit you could pick to open up your elite/etc slots are now no longer something you CAN take a scout for let alone WOULD take a scout for.

Deployment options and early game board control will still be useful things.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Deployment options and early game board control will still be useful things.

Not without ObSec. You can do the same thing with Incursors for only slightly more. And they're still in the Must Fill slot.

Say you're taking 600 points in troops. Basically 3x10 somethings. You can take 10 Incursors for about 10-20 points more than you would have spend on Intercessors or boxart/iconicly equipped/normally-upgraded/i.e. not wildly barebones or indulgent Tac Marines. Or you can take 3x10 normal Tac Marines/Intercessors/etc and spend another 75-150 points on Scouts. Using Incursors your Troop Cost jumps from 600 to about 625. Using 3x10 Tacs/Intercessors your 600 stays 600 but you add another 75-150 on Scouts that you now don't have to use on Devs and Dreads. That's not even counting the CA 2020 price hike that stuck around after they lost ObSec.

Edit: Some of that could well be that Incursors aren't expensive enough. They're one of the few units to get all three "options" i.e. a rifle, a pistol, and a "fight" weapon. Plus they get Infiltrate. All for about half a point per model and a slightly less effective rifle than an Intercessor. Most of my list building (Post Invictus) has/had been a couple Intercessor squads, and a couple Assault Intercessor squads. Prior to that it was usually an Intercessor, a Tac, and a Sniper Scout. Now I'm thinking a couple Incursors, a couple Assault Intercessors if I'm doing Primaris. Infiltrators are WAY too expensive - you can get a Tac Squad and Drop Pod for almost the same cost giving you a very similar Deepstrike/Infiltrate effect AND a 6W T6 large footprint (giant if you include the doors which I wouldn't) storm bolter that will further screen the objective/etc.

Board control is different than objective control, and they're cheap.

Also they aren't filthy primaris.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Board control is different than objective control, and they're cheap.

Also they aren't filthy primaris.

You replied while I was editing -

Say you're taking 600 points in troops. Basically 3x10 somethings. You can take 10 Incursors for about 10-20 points more than you would have spend on Intercessors or boxart/iconicly equipped/normally-upgraded/i.e. not wildly barebones or indulgent Tac Marines. Or you can take 3x10 normal Tac Marines/Intercessors/etc and spend another 75-150 points on Scouts. Using Incursors your Troop Cost jumps from 600 to about 625. Using 3x10 Tacs/Intercessors your 600 stays 600 but you add another 75-150 on Scouts that you now don't have to use on Devs and Dreads. That's not even counting the CA 2020 price hike that stuck around after they lost ObSec.

Edit: Some of that could well be that Incursors aren't expensive enough. They're one of the few units to get all three "options" i.e. a rifle, a pistol, and a "fight" weapon. Plus they get Infiltrate. All for about half a point per model and a slightly less effective rifle than an Intercessor. Most of my list building (Post Invictus) has/had been a couple Intercessor squads, and a couple Assault Intercessor squads. Prior to that it was usually an Intercessor, a Tac, and a Sniper Scout. Now I'm thinking a couple Incursors, a couple Assault Intercessors if I'm doing Primaris. Infiltrators are WAY too expensive - you can get a Tac Squad and Drop Pod for almost the same cost giving you a very similar Deepstrike/Infiltrate effect AND a 6W T6 large footprint (giant if you include the doors which I wouldn't) storm bolter that will further screen the objective/etc.

They're cheap when they're something you were already buying. They're not nearly so cheap when they're not part of that 600ish points you were already spending.

Could have stayed in troops but not counted towards minimum troops perhaps? This was a design choice that worked fine for many units in the past.

Dai wrote:
Could have stayed in troops but not counted towards minimum troops perhaps? This was a design choice that worked fine for many units in the past.

This is not a bad call. Still troops, still ObSec, but you need to fill your mandatory slots with full battle-brothers in power armor. Which solves the problem of people just taking 3x5 min scout squads to fill the requirements. The one issue would be dumping ObSec bodies out of a LSS that just moved 18”. Nice trick, but it’s only 5 T4 4+ 1W scouts, so holding on to the objective you just sniped is going to be rough.

If they needed to move out of the troop slot, I still think FA would be the better call. They might not be physically fast, but rely on position and maneuver, which is slot appropriate.

Somewhere around here, I suggested they should have stayed troops and been given something similar to the Relic Rule from Forgeworld. You can take one scout squad per one non scout Troop unit.

But Elites is completely the wrong choice.

Its more that Elites is the wrong word - Servitors are also "Elite" - naybe go back to WFB's Special.

Also does not help there are 26 other Elite units!

 Mr Morden wrote:

But Elites is completely the wrong choice.

Its more that Elites is the wrong word - Servitors are also "Elite" - naybe go back to WFB's Special.

Also does not help there are 26 other Elite units!

I've often thought that

elites could stand to be split into two. elites and "specialists"

Y'know, I quite like the idea of Servitors going into Troops but without ObSec and not counting towards mandatory Org slots. That makes even more sense for them than it does Scouts.
At least they're "free" with a Techmarine, though.

Scouts should never have been the "cheap Troops" option, which is why they were moved from Troops, I think. I, personally, would have moved them to Fast Attack, instead of the overcrowded Elites slot, though.

 Mr Morden wrote:

But Elites is completely the wrong choice.

Its more that Elites is the wrong word - Servitors are also "Elite" - naybe go back to WFB's Special.

Also does not help there are 26 other Elite units!

Anything but Troops is pretty much wrong now. The price difference between them and Incursors isn't large enough, and their ability to do things Incursors can't just doesn't really justify taking them instead. Assault Marines and especially Vanguard Vets have a spot because they can do things Assault Intercessors can't. Likewise Sternguard over Tacticals/Intercessors.

You might be able to make a case for Sniper Scouts over Eliminators but I don't think even that's valid anymore. 10 Sniper Scouts with Camo Cloaks and 6 Eliminators run pretty much neck and neck on price. The Camo Scouts are going to be 2+/4+ depending on cover, while the Eliminators are going to be 1+/3+ with 6 BS2+ S5 -2 D2 sniper shots vs 10 BS3+ S4 -0 D1. The only thing Scouts have going their way now is 1 Elite vs 2 HS slots. It would be easy enough to go MSU on the Brigade (especially with the addition of a LOT of good FA choices) or add a second Det instead of going Scouts. I'm waiting on the Speeders (and forgot I had the datasheet for them already) but between ATV's, MM Attack Bike changes, Outriders, BGV, the improvement to Suppressors, the new Speeders, an MSU SM Brigade feels much more doable than before. They got a lot of (relatively) cheap units, especially in FA where Marines were weak.


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 Super Ready wrote:
Y'know, I quite like the idea of Servitors going into Troops but without ObSec and not counting towards mandatory Org slots. That makes even more sense for them than it does Scouts.
At least they're "free" with a Techmarine, though.

I'd have to look again, but I think you can ONLY take them with a Techmarine. I thought they had a max 1 per Techmarine rule.

What if they were troops or obj sec only if your warlord was a phobos armoured cpt ? Same with heavy gravis dudes.

Breton wrote:
I'd have to look again, but I think you can ONLY take them with a Techmarine. I thought they had a max 1 per Techmarine rule.

No need, I just double-checked to make sure it was how I thought it was. You can take them as Elites anyway, but you can have one unit that doesn't take up a slot per Techmarine in that detachment.