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BrianDavion wrote:

Marine players are the entitled whiners? I don't see marines whining dude. teling you that "Marines get more attention because it's more profitable for GW" is just explaining basic economics.

Ain't saying Marine players are whiners as a whole, just that that post made it come across that way. "Entitled" is not a word I use lightly, because I hate it, given its tendency to easily create emotional reactions with uses often at best loosely related to its definition, but I think it speaks to the perception that "It makes GW more money, therefore Marines should have the lion's share of the attention" generates.

If what we have right now is justified as the result of basic economics, then it will be far from the first thing that basic economics has ruined, because it means that economics has completely overshadowed creating a game that's actually fun for all its players. If the financial imbalance involved in supporting other armies is this disparate, 40K is not on a good path.

Look, Marines getting the most attention is fine. They've always gotten a bit more for what are basically understandable, and indeed economic, reasons. But for the past several months, they've gotten so much of it, are getting most of the immediate attention in the near future, have done so from a position of strength going into 9th where they've been for nearly a year and a half - and GW can't even be bothered to FAQ other factions' weapons and stats in line properly so that we have anything resembling crossfaction balance. Meanwhile, they somehow find the effort for entire Indexes for Marine subfactions that were only going to be needed for a month or two while others have to wait a depressingly indeterminate length of time while their CSM have nonsensically fewer wounds than the Loyalists, their Fusion guns are weaker, or their Flamer-equivalents only fire 8".

It's really disheartening to feel like a second-class citizen in your own entertainment. And any defense of this state of affairs isn't going unchallenged - which will spawn more of this, if this is what you don't want to see. "Shut up and stop whining about it" will just result in harder arguing and more of these complaints.

BrianDavion wrote:

 CEO Kasen wrote:

Breton wrote:

In related news. Men’s college basketball, football, and baseball players need to realize their TV contracts that pay for women’s soccer, basketball, and softball are getting vastly more TV time at the expense of those other sports.

Dude. Come on. I know this stuff gets to you, but if you talk like the current unprecedented level of release imbalance is justified, you just further cement the opinion the non-Marine players have of Marine players as entitled whiners and the board will be filled with more complaints about Marines because clearly their arguments still need to be heard. I mean, are you expecting them to back down once they've heard your clever analogy? It's just gonna come back harder.

Marine players are the entitled whiners? I don't see marines whining dude. teling you that "Marines get more attention because it's more profitable for GW" is just explaining basic economics.

And if other factions got more support and resource they would be more popular, and be more profitable.. GW more more money.. see..? Economics bruh...

This circular argument has been talked to death and is as fresh as my 2 day old socks...

Breton wrote:
In related news. Men’s college basketball, football, and baseball players need to realize their TV contracts that pay for women’s soccer, basketball, and softball are getting vastly more TV time at the expense of those other sports.

Nah, it's different, because Astartes only sell more because they're promoted more. Grey Knights don't fly off the shelves like in 5th. The situation is one that GW's engineered, not the native desire of the playerbase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Marine players are the entitled whiners? I don't see marines whining dude. teling you that "Marines get more attention because it's more profitable for GW" is just explaining basic economics.

And not supporting specialist games was basic economics... until it turned out that *that* was a lie.

Astartes only sell well because they're portrayed so well in the fluff and given constant releases. If any other faction was given that, they'd sell well too. Grey Knights don't sell like they did in 5th; there's a reason for that.

I'd like to preface this with the statement that I don't want factions that people like to be removed from the game, because I'm a big fan of Custodes which a lot of people don't like but I think are really cool.

The major potential issue I see for Deathwatch and also Grey Knights and to a lesser extent Sisters of Silence is that they are anti-factions/units. Deathwatch are anti-xenos Space Marines, just as Grey Knights are anti-demon Space Marines which can make it awkward to design them well because of that. If Deathwatch are too good at their anti-faction role that invalidates a lot of armies if Deathwatch are popular. Likewise, Grey Knights have the potential to invalidate Daemons as an army. Back when I first encountered Deathwatch and Grey Knights (4th edition), Deathwatch was a kill-team you could take in another army and Grey Knights could be fielded as a full army or as an allied contingent. Also at this time Daemons were a subset of units in the Chaos codex, not a stand alone faction. Its one thing to have the small element of an anti-faction unit that gets added to a generalist army and quite something else to have an entire faction that specializes in killing a specific faction or group of factions in the game. Liekwise, it can be difficult for players of the anti-factions if their overspecialization against specific enemies makes them weak against everything else.

I generally think that in a miniatures game where people spend a lot of time and money buying, building, and painting their army that having armies that are essentially anti-factions is a bad idea. However, now that those specific factions exist, I think it is a much worse idea to eliminate those factions after people have spent a lot of time and money assembling and painting their armies.

 CEO Kasen wrote:
they've gotten so much of it, are getting most of the immediate attention in the near future.

Except they aren't. Primaris marines are. Notice you didn't go anywhere near my questions about Sisters getting a retool, or a potential retool for Eldar. None of these new Kits are "Marines" they're all Primaris Marines They're doing to Marines what they JUST did to Sisters - with the added IP/Proxy model/Tournament/etc expectations to generate sales - just in a way that doesn't take Marines off the shelf - because they can't afford to take Marines off the shelf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:


And not supporting specialist games was basic economics... until it turned out that *that* was a lie.

Let me know when the Specialist Games start lasting longer to prove it. How many times HAS Bloodbowl relaunched so far anyway? Adeptus Titanicus/Epic 40K, Epic/etc? Anyone seen a good game of Battlefleet Gothic recently?

 Argive wrote:


And if other factions got more support and resource they would be more popular, and be more profitable.. GW more more money.. see..? Economics bruh...

This circular argument has been talked to death and is as fresh as my 2 day old socks...

That is a big if, considering how GW does their updates. GW can't risk making a necron or SoB faction models update, and then the army not selling. Marines always sells. GW could of course test stuff, by just updating the rules and checking if specific already existing models start selling a lot better, but that doesn't seem to be their philosophy in general. They maybe tried to do it with Inari, and it was sales driving thing for sure. But this is no way a general rules how they act, there are whole plastic lines of models, that have or had bad rules and GW just leaves them like that for years.

Breton wrote:


Except they aren't. Primaris marines are. Notice you didn't go anywhere near my questions about Sisters getting a retool, or a potential retool for Eldar. None of these new Kits are "Marines" they're all Primaris Marines They're doing to Marines what they JUST did to Sisters - with the added IP/Proxy model/Tournament/etc expectations to generate sales - just in a way that doesn't take Marines off the shelf - because they can't afford to take Marines off the shelf.

To the customer, the effect is the same. Kasen is right in every way that matters.

Breton wrote:
Let me know when the Specialist Games start lasting longer to prove it. How many times HAS Bloodbowl relaunched so far anyway? Adeptus Titanicus/Epic 40K, Epic/etc? Anyone seen a good game of Battlefleet Gothic recently?

Blood Bowl is in the middle of an extensive rework. Necromunda got rereleased and redone after years of lying fallow. The point is, they're investing money into it.

They're also allowing more video games to be made with their IP, which is a change that makes them money - but earlier management teams were against it. GW management has (or maybe has had) an *irrational* like for Astartes. It's not a matter of expediency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:


That is a big if, considering how GW does their updates. GW can't risk making a necron or SoB faction models update, and then the army not selling. Marines always sells. GW could of course test stuff, by just updating the rules and checking if specific already existing models start selling a lot better, but that doesn't seem to be their philosophy in general. They maybe tried to do it with Inari, and it was sales driving thing for sure. But this is no way a general rules how they act, there are whole plastic lines of models, that have or had bad rules and GW just leaves them like that for years.

Maybe GW should go through the effort to make non-Astartes factions popular through their game rules and Black Library materials.

Hecaton wrote:

Breton wrote:


Except they aren't. Primaris marines are. Notice you didn't go anywhere near my questions about Sisters getting a retool, or a potential retool for Eldar. None of these new Kits are "Marines" they're all Primaris Marines They're doing to Marines what they JUST did to Sisters - with the added IP/Proxy model/Tournament/etc expectations to generate sales - just in a way that doesn't take Marines off the shelf - because they can't afford to take Marines off the shelf.

To the customer, the effect is the same. Kasen is right in every way that matters.

Who knew Marine Players aren't customers?

Breton wrote:
Let me know when the Specialist Games start lasting longer to prove it. How many times HAS Bloodbowl relaunched so far anyway? Adeptus Titanicus/Epic 40K, Epic/etc? Anyone seen a good game of Battlefleet Gothic recently?

Blood Bowl is in the middle of an extensive rework. Necromunda got rereleased and redone after years of lying fallow. The point is, they're investing money into it.

Blood Bowl is in the middle of ANOTHER extensive rework. Necromunda AFTER YEARS OF LAYING FALLOW. The point is they constantly invest A LITTLE money into it, and then let it die off after they've earned what they can out of it. Warhammer Quest could be the longest continually running specialist game they've ever put out.

They're also allowing more video games to be made with their IP, which is a change that makes them money - but earlier management teams were against it. GW management has (or maybe has had) an *irrational* like for Astartes. It's not a matter of expediency.

Earlier management teams weren't against video games, they were against turning their tabletop game into a video game. They loved getting next to, but not quite doing so. None of those games are tabletop 40K or Fantasy/AoS. None of those games will ever be. Unless they get End Timed like Fantasy - but even Total War: Warhammer isn't Fantasy. Dawn of War 2 isn't 40K. They're just designed to sell 40K and Fantasy.

Hecaton wrote:

Breton wrote:


Except they aren't. Primaris marines are. Notice you didn't go anywhere near my questions about Sisters getting a retool, or a potential retool for Eldar. None of these new Kits are "Marines" they're all Primaris Marines They're doing to Marines what they JUST did to Sisters - with the added IP/Proxy model/Tournament/etc expectations to generate sales - just in a way that doesn't take Marines off the shelf - because they can't afford to take Marines off the shelf.

To the customer, the effect is the same. Kasen is right in every way that matters.

Breton wrote:
Let me know when the Specialist Games start lasting longer to prove it. How many times HAS Bloodbowl relaunched so far anyway? Adeptus Titanicus/Epic 40K, Epic/etc? Anyone seen a good game of Battlefleet Gothic recently?

Blood Bowl is in the middle of an extensive rework. Necromunda got rereleased and redone after years of lying fallow. The point is, they're investing money into it.

They're also allowing more video games to be made with their IP, which is a change that makes them money - but earlier management teams were against it. GW management has (or maybe has had) an *irrational* like for Astartes. It's not a matter of expediency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:


That is a big if, considering how GW does their updates. GW can't risk making a necron or SoB faction models update, and then the army not selling. Marines always sells. GW could of course test stuff, by just updating the rules and checking if specific already existing models start selling a lot better, but that doesn't seem to be their philosophy in general. They maybe tried to do it with Inari, and it was sales driving thing for sure. But this is no way a general rules how they act, there are whole plastic lines of models, that have or had bad rules and GW just leaves them like that for years.

Maybe GW should go through the effort to make non-Astartes factions popular through their game rules and Black Library materials.

ok, what if GW launches a massive line of I dunno, we'll say eldar, a massive novel line, so big that's literally all they produce in an entire year, let's say they bet the farm on your idea that another faction could be propelled to marine heights... well.. what if they're wrong and it fails?

Marines are an empiricly proven seller. GW can churn a bunch out and KNOWS they'll sell them all. other armies are likely viewed as a bit of a riskier proposition.

Remember GW's a publicly traded company they have stockholders to keep happy. and many of these people likely know jack all about the game (in their mind they've proably invested in a toy company)
these guys just look at their spreadsheets and say "space marines sell lots, we need space marine releases this year!"
si Marines are produced to appease the stockholders and give GW leave to do other things that they WANT to do, like Plastic sisters, a necron refresh, specialist games etc.

If I were an even slightly bigger prick, "Kasen is right in every way that matters" would be my new forum sig.

Breton wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Breton wrote:


Except they aren't. Primaris marines are. Notice you didn't go anywhere near my questions about Sisters getting a retool, or a potential retool for Eldar. None of these new Kits are "Marines" they're all Primaris Marines They're doing to Marines what they JUST did to Sisters - with the added IP/Proxy model/Tournament/etc expectations to generate sales - just in a way that doesn't take Marines off the shelf - because they can't afford to take Marines off the shelf.

To the customer, the effect is the same. Kasen is right in every way that matters.

Who knew Marine Players aren't customers?

...Uh, what? Is this a rebuttal? I may be prematurely assuming it is because you do tend to be... unsympathetic to vigorous concerns about Marines, shall we say? But as a rebuttal it makes no sense.

I have zero idea what Sisters have to do with this or heard anything about a potential Eldar retool. I'm not sure how the Marine releases being Primaris in any way invalidates what I just said, especially since nonPrimaris still got the wound update. And where the balls did Hecaton say, imply, insinuate, blog, tweet, or send in Morse code using only his asscheeks the statement that "Marine players aren't customers?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
ok, what if GW launches a massive line of I dunno, we'll say eldar, a massive novel line, so big that's literally all they produce in an entire year, let's say they bet the farm on your idea that another faction could be propelled to marine heights... well.. what if they're wrong and it fails?

Marines are an empiricly proven seller. GW can churn a bunch out and KNOWS they'll sell them all. other armies are likely viewed as a bit of a riskier proposition.

Remember GW's a publicly traded company they have stockholders to keep happy. and many of these people likely know jack all about the game (in their mind they've proably invested in a toy company)
these guys just look at their spreadsheets and say "space marines sell lots, we need space marine releases this year!"
si Marines are produced to appease the stockholders and give GW leave to do other things that they WANT to do, like Plastic sisters, a necron refresh, specialist games etc.

You aren't wrong that marines sell, therefore produce Marines is clearly GW's logic. I don't think anyone is arguing against the idea that a big company will do this. What I believe Hecaton is arguing that this could be corrected with a little marketing of some other factions, and what I am arguing is:

1) That certain efforts on GWs part to balance the game could be made at trivial levels of expense via a few simple rules updates, and
2) Massively Overprioritizing Marines to the extent that 1) appears to be too difficult to do is a recipe for a terrible game.

 CEO Kasen wrote:
If I were an even slightly bigger prick, "Kasen is right in every way that matters" would be my new forum sig.

Breton wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Breton wrote:


Except they aren't. Primaris marines are. Notice you didn't go anywhere near my questions about Sisters getting a retool, or a potential retool for Eldar. None of these new Kits are "Marines" they're all Primaris Marines They're doing to Marines what they JUST did to Sisters - with the added IP/Proxy model/Tournament/etc expectations to generate sales - just in a way that doesn't take Marines off the shelf - because they can't afford to take Marines off the shelf.

To the customer, the effect is the same. Kasen is right in every way that matters.

Who knew Marine Players aren't customers?

...Uh, what? Is this a rebuttal?

No it's apparently a more subtle commentary on dehumanizing people who disagree with you than I thought it ever could be. Multiple marine players have pointed out the lumping of Marines together for complaints about their release schedule isn't as accurate as the people making them should be. A new Lysander sculpt is not a Marine release, it's an Imperial Fists release. The other Marine chapters aren't generally using it. The wave of Primaris Releases aren't "new" Marine releases, they're "replacement" Marine releases as we watch our armies enter planned obsolescence. And you just said they're all "not customers".

I may be prematurely assuming it is because you do tend to be... unsympathetic to vigorous concerns about Marines, shall we say? But as a rebuttal it makes no sense.

I have zero idea what Sisters have to do with this or heard anything about a potential Eldar retool. I'm not sure how the Marine releases being Primaris in any way invalidates what I just said, especially since nonPrimaris still got the wound update. And where the balls did Hecaton say, imply, insinuate, blog, tweet, or send in Morse code using only his asscheeks the statement that "Marine players aren't customers?"

Color me shocked the people complaining about a Marine Release pace during a retool don't want to compare it to any other army getting a deep retooling.

Lol breton, then why are you defending this when you yourself, state that it is planned obsolesence and at this stage frankly milking the cow dry.
And Frankly marine players at this point should feel pretty pissed because as far as i remember they allreay got an updated line just before primaris... and now their updated investment can't even seemingly support itself through what 4 years? (but then again it's also the population that get's to buy 3 books now per edition without even going into CA or the rulesbook soo rip.)

Why are you lot buying that rubish then, btw?

I allready cut out the gw plastic and FW resin for the most part.

Breton wrote:
No it's apparently a more subtle commentary on dehumanizing people who disagree with you than I thought it ever could be. Multiple marine players have pointed out the lumping of Marines together for complaints about their release schedule isn't as accurate as the people making them should be. A new Lysander sculpt is not a Marine release, it's an Imperial Fists release. The other Marine chapters aren't generally using it. The wave of Primaris Releases aren't "new" Marine releases, they're "replacement" Marine releases as we watch our armies enter planned obsolescence. And you just said they're all "not customers".

Wait, what? Marine players are not customers? Marine players are definitely customers. Where the hell did anyone say this in this thread? I certainly didn't. Hecaton didn't say so to my knowledge. I'm genuinely lost at this point.

Color me shocked the people complaining about a Marine Release pace during a retool don't want to compare it to any other army getting a deep retooling.

What? I... What?! No, cut the 'color me shocked' sarcasm, seriously, what are you even talking about? What retooling? What is this post even about?

Certain units/characters being usable by only certain SM chapters is the exact same problem as having only 1 xenos faction getting new stuff, it doesn't affect the other xenos factions in any way.

I'm fine that Space marines get more stuff than the other faction, they're the golden boys, the literal faceboys of GW, and it's good that way. But sometime (like in the past months) they just give too much. I think it's normal that chaos/xenos factions feel left behind and frustrated.

I even feel this abondance of SM things start to get kinda anti-consummer for both SM and xeno players alike. Some xeno factions are dying to see some new stuffs/recasts or even new better rules, while the SM have to deal with having to buy several expensive rulebooks and deal with a lot of redundant units that will confuse new players.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lol breton, then why are you defending this when you yourself, state that it is planned obsolesence and at this stage frankly milking the cow dry.

Pointing out reality isn't "defending this" nor is the cow dry, they just molded a new cow.

And Frankly marine players at this point should feel pretty pissed because as far as i remember they allreay got an updated line just before primaris...

Of which I think I bought none of. I already had it or didn't want it.

and now their updated investment can't even seemingly support itself through what 4 years? (but then again it's also the population that get's to buy 3 books now per edition without even going into CA or the rulesbook soo rip.)

Why are you lot buying that rubish then, btw?

I still want to play? I got 20 years out of most of my models and 20 years for $20 isn't that bad? I make jokes about the people who bought the LOW Land Raider to see it move to Legends in less than one edition?

I allready cut out the gw plastic and FW resin for the most part.

Mr Raptor wrote:
Certain units/characters being usable by only certain SM chapters is the exact same problem as having only 1 xenos faction getting new stuff, it doesn't affect the other xenos factions in any way.

I'm fine that Space marines get more stuff than the other faction, they're the golden boys, the literal faceboys of GW, and it's good that way. But sometime (like in the past months) they just give too much. I think it's normal that chaos/xenos factions feel left behind and frustrated.

I even feel this abondance of SM things start to get kinda anti-consummer for both SM and xeno players alike. Some xeno factions are dying to see some new stuffs/recasts or even new better rules, while the SM have to deal with having to buy several expensive rulebooks and deal with a lot of redundant units that will confuse new players.

I won't deny it feels like we've had back to back large scale marine releases. hopefully 2021 will be someone else's time and any marine releases will be minimal and restricted to the odd event mini and maybe a black templars supplement and special character max.

Look, Marines getting the most attention is fine. They've always gotten a bit more for what are basically understandable, and indeed economic, reasons. But for the past several months, they've gotten so much of it, are getting most of the immediate attention in the near future, have done so from a position of strength going into 9th where they've been for nearly a year and a half - and GW can't even be bothered to FAQ other factions' weapons and stats in line properly so that we have anything resembling crossfaction balance. Meanwhile, they somehow find the effort for entire Indexes for Marine subfactions that were only going to be needed for a month or two while others have to wait a depressingly indeterminate length of time while their CSM have nonsensically fewer wounds than the Loyalists, their Fusion guns are weaker, or their Flamer-equivalents only fire 8".

A large part of community doesn't even get to enjoy the domination period of marines. By the time GW send GK codexs to my country, it was the 2 week of february and in the 3ed the whole country shut down. The stores opened durning summer, because the ruling party wanted elections before the second pandemic wave, so people got to play a bit, and now everyone is going in to being shut again. Telling people that didn't get to play with the good marine rules, while they very much got to enjoy when they were bad is not going to garner much understanding from people.

Maybe GW should go through the effort to make non-Astartes factions popular through their game rules and Black Library materials.

Maybe is not something investors like to hear. What investors like to hear is, we are building our phones and tablets in a such a way that they break down on themselfs after 2 years and new phones don't fit old chargers, and we make it illegal for people to fix their stuff in not licensed stores, even if we opened 6 stores in a 30 milion country. Life is about minimum effort for maximum games, those that try to do extra get what we call the volenteer treatment.

Have you guys ever invested in a company?
I know its a meme of "haha, evil investors will pull the plug if the share price dips a bit, sack all the management, flog the remaining plastic to Hasbro" - but that very rarely happens, and certainly doesn't happen to a company like GW where "investor" influence by all seeming accounts has been minimal forever.

Most investors will be institutions who have almost no idea what GW are doing beyond a casual "profits going up, good, stay in". They don't care if GW print marines, tau or tangerines.

This idea "Marines sell" is purely a function of "its new" (which sells) and "its good" (which sells). We have this every time. "Oh no one wants Sisters, its much too big of a risk."

*GW makes plastic Sisters with rules comfortably putting them in the top half of factions and they sell out almost everywhere.*

"Its a fluke."

*GW makes new Necrons. They seem to be in a similar boat and lo, are sold out almost everywhere (could be Covid related, but still).*

"But but but muh Marines need new stuff all the time otherwise they'll get cold".

So I haven't heard a single good argument as to why DW are a bad idea in the seven pages of this thread. Here's the best of the worst arguments:

1) "It's not fluffy. DW deploy in killteams not armies." – Not true. Up to 30 marines deployed is pretty standard when meeting a big threat, and that's about right for a 2k game. Entire fortresses have been deployed before too. And let's not forget that there is a skew between fluff and crunch regarding SMs more generally. if DW are breaking fluff by deploying in numbers over 10, then so are SM armies.

2) "They should be wrapped up with Inquisition" – Well yes, or vice versa more likely. And neither would represent DW being a bad idea, just that it would be very cool to see Ordo Xenos represented as interacting with DW on the table.

3) "All the DW models are draining the life from every other faction!!" – An absurd suggestion. They have three boxes in total: Watchmaster blister, Killteam box and Corvus. That's it. If you're complaining that SM as a whole are horribly over-represented in the release schedule you'll get no argument out of me. But then your problem is with SM as a whole, not with DW.

4) "I don't like them though! They smell!" – No you smell, nyah nyah.

That's it. Can we close the thread now?

 grouchoben wrote:
So I haven't heard a single good argument as to why DW are a bad idea in the seven pages of this thread. Here's the best of the worst arguments:

1) "It's not fluffy. DW deploy in killteams not armies." – Not true. Up to 30 marines deployed is pretty standard when meeting a big threat, and that's about right for a 2k game. Entire fortresses have been deployed before too. And let's not forget that there is a skew between fluff and crunch regarding SMs more generally. if DW are breaking fluff by deploying in numbers over 10, then so are SM armies.

2) "They should be wrapped up with Inquisition" – Well yes, or vice versa more likely. And neither would represent DW being a bad idea, just that it would be very cool to see Ordo Xenos represented as interacting with DW on the table.

3) "All the DW models are draining the life from every other faction!!" – An absurd suggestion. They have three boxes in total: Watchmaster blister, Killteam box and Corvus. That's it. If you're complaining that SM as a whole are horribly over-represented in the release schedule you'll get no argument out of me. But then your problem is with SM as a whole, not with DW.

4) "I don't like them though! They smell!" – No you smell, nyah nyah.

That's it. Can we close the thread now?

1. I think the real issue with DW in "normal" 40k, is that deploying in units works against DW's high customizability. A squad with a termie, biker, jump pack marine and whatever else is cool, but doesn't function well on the table.

Playing a Kill Team 3.0 game with an inquisitor, a couple their followers, and a band of DW or GKs would be a heck of a lot of fun.

A better question for a new thread, is "How can DW be better represented, and their customizability more impactful and fun, in regular 40k?"

2. Yeah. Re-merging inquisition with DW, GK, and Sisters would be great.

Blastaar wrote:

1. I think the real issue with DW in "normal" 40k, is that deploying in units works against DW's high customizability. A squad with a termie, biker, jump pack marine and whatever else is cool, but doesn't function well on the table.

This is incalculably wrong. Mixed units are at the heart of how Deathwatch play "standard" scale 40k.

Sterling191 wrote:

Blastaar wrote:

1. I think the real issue with DW in "normal" 40k, is that deploying in units works against DW's high customizability. A squad with a termie, biker, jump pack marine and whatever else is cool, but doesn't function well on the table.

This is incalculably wrong. Mixed units are at the heart of how Deathwatch play "standard" scale 40k.

Really? Bikes, termies, and regular marines function well in the same unit?

You'd don't have to tell me how wrong I am, you can just explain my error.

Blastaar wrote:

Really? Bikes, termies, and regular marines function well in the same unit?

They most certainly do. There's an entire tactica thread that can show you how.

Blastaar wrote:

You'd don't have to tell me how wrong I am, you can just explain my error.

I quite literally just did. Mixed squads allow Deathwatch armies to function in ways their individual constituent components wouldnt be able to. If you want to know more, I highly recommend you 1) read over their rules and/or 2) try asking specific questions in the actual Deathwatch thread.

Sterling191 wrote:

Blastaar wrote:

Really? Bikes, termies, and regular marines function well in the same unit?

They most certainly do. There's an entire tactica thread that can show you how.

Blastaar wrote:

You'd don't have to tell me how wrong I am, you can just explain my error.

I quite literally just did. Mixed squads allow Deathwatch armies to function in ways their individual constituent components wouldnt be able to. If you want to know more, I highly recommend you 1) read over their rules and/or 2) try asking specific questions in the actual Deathwatch thread.

I was politely telling you to stop being condescending, and you had to go and do it again.

ihockert wrote:
The major potential issue I see for Deathwatch and also Grey Knights and to a lesser extent Sisters of Silence is that they are anti-factions/units. [...] Liekwise, it can be difficult for players of the anti-factions if their overspecialization against specific enemies makes them weak against everything else.

I generally think that in a miniatures game where people spend a lot of time and money buying, building, and painting their army that having armies that are essentially anti-factions is a bad idea.

Okay, what if instead of special anti-army rules, they just designed the armies to be strong against what their preferred enemies do?

Hate marines? Have efficient stats for taking out multiwound infantry. Hate demons? Have stats and rules that are good at dealing with charges and invulnerable saves. A strong specialization against a broad type of play that includes the preferred enemy army should allow a reasonable flavor without pigeonholing the army.

Blastaar wrote:

I was politely telling you to stop being condescending, and you had to go and do it again.

That tends to happen when people make declarative statements with no basis in reality about armies that I play, then act confused when they get called out on it.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

ihockert wrote:
The major potential issue I see for Deathwatch and also Grey Knights and to a lesser extent Sisters of Silence is that they are anti-factions/units. [...] Liekwise, it can be difficult for players of the anti-factions if their overspecialization against specific enemies makes them weak against everything else.

I generally think that in a miniatures game where people spend a lot of time and money buying, building, and painting their army that having armies that are essentially anti-factions is a bad idea.

Okay, what if instead of special anti-army rules, they just designed the armies to be strong against what their preferred enemies do?

Hate marines? Have efficient stats for taking out multiwound infantry. Hate demons? Have stats and rules that are good at dealing with charges and invulnerable saves. A strong specialization against a broad type of play that includes the preferred enemy army should allow a reasonable flavor without pigeonholing the army.

The Deathwatch anti-Xenos hate is really, really mild. Almost entirely flavor. Reroll 1's on melee attacks is really niche on an army with limited melee advantages otherwise, and the specifically targeted strats are both expensive and limited in their power. It's probably the best way to implement rules like that. Not nothing, but not the advantages you're designing your list around.

Breton wrote:

Who knew Marine Players aren't customers?

I never said that. In fact, I said the opposite - I said that models are being released (Primaris) that Marine players are buying. But the important thing is that they're being made in unheard-of quantities, and the Loyalist Astartes factions are getting orders of magnitude more support than other factions.

Next time, take a second read. It's clear your reading comprehension is a bit spotty.

Breton wrote:
Blood Bowl is in the middle of ANOTHER extensive rework. Necromunda AFTER YEARS OF LAYING FALLOW. The point is they constantly invest A LITTLE money into it, and then let it die off after they've earned what they can out of it. Warhammer Quest could be the longest continually running specialist game they've ever put out.

They're investing substantially more right now than they have in the past.

Breton wrote:
Earlier management teams weren't against video games, they were against turning their tabletop game into a video game. They loved getting next to, but not quite doing so. None of those games are tabletop 40K or Fantasy/AoS. None of those games will ever be. Unless they get End Timed like Fantasy - but even Total War: Warhammer isn't Fantasy. Dawn of War 2 isn't 40K. They're just designed to sell 40K and Fantasy.

You're clearly not following.

Anyway, the point is that GW is not the be-all-end-all of omniscient business knowledge.


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BrianDavion wrote:
ok, what if GW launches a massive line of I dunno, we'll say eldar, a massive novel line, so big that's literally all they produce in an entire year, let's say they bet the farm on your idea that another faction could be propelled to marine heights... well.. what if they're wrong and it fails?

So maybe don't focus on one faction, to the exclusion of all others, for a year. It's not rocket surgery.

BrianDavion wrote:
Marines are an empiricly proven seller. GW can churn a bunch out and KNOWS they'll sell them all. other armies are likely viewed as a bit of a riskier proposition.

They're viewed that way because they're given outsize support, and the fluff is warped to make them seem heroic.

BrianDavion wrote:
Remember GW's a publicly traded company they have stockholders to keep happy. and many of these people likely know jack all about the game (in their mind they've proably invested in a toy company)
these guys just look at their spreadsheets and say "space marines sell lots, we need space marine releases this year!"
si Marines are produced to appease the stockholders and give GW leave to do other things that they WANT to do, like Plastic sisters, a necron refresh, specialist games etc.

Publicly traded companies are not omniscient with respect to what makes them money. GW has so much market capture that they could make bad business decisions for decades and remain solvent within their niche. I'm saying that they can make more money by cultivating an ensemble cast of interesting factions, rather than myopically focusing on loyalist Astartes like they do. As an example, I recently tried to buy a selection of ork minis recently for a project - but despite being in production, they weren't available on GW's site or from retailers who stock GW. I ended up finding them on ebay via the secondary market. That's a lost sale there. And you could say "But exclusively focusing on Primaris makes them more money." Here's what I guarantee - their analytics aren't that good. They don't know how much money they *aren't* making. There are people in that company who are *unreasonably* focused on Astartes, who would rather make five dollars selling Astartes than ten dollars selling a variety of factions (possibly for branding/IP reasons). So I think they should do better.


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Tyel wrote:
Have you guys ever invested in a company?
I know its a meme of "haha, evil investors will pull the plug if the share price dips a bit, sack all the management, flog the remaining plastic to Hasbro" - but that very rarely happens, and certainly doesn't happen to a company like GW where "investor" influence by all seeming accounts has been minimal forever.

Most investors will be institutions who have almost no idea what GW are doing beyond a casual "profits going up, good, stay in". They don't care if GW print marines, tau or tangerines.

This idea "Marines sell" is purely a function of "its new" (which sells) and "its good" (which sells). We have this every time. "Oh no one wants Sisters, its much too big of a risk."

*GW makes plastic Sisters with rules comfortably putting them in the top half of factions and they sell out almost everywhere.*

"Its a fluke."

*GW makes new Necrons. They seem to be in a similar boat and lo, are sold out almost everywhere (could be Covid related, but still).*

"But but but muh Marines need new stuff all the time otherwise they'll get cold".

Pretty much this. There's some executive over there who is getting annoyed any time someone suggests supporting non-Astartes factions, and even more annoyed when they sell.

I agree with the OP here. Deathwatch have pretty much become a generic chapter flavour that is just Primaris in black.

The faction should have been Ordo Xenos complete with stormtrooper/scion options, good inquisitor options as well as kill teams. The whole unique schtick should have been a book that combined IG and space marine elements with its own twist.

They also need the kits/encouragement to push what the real joy in Deathwatch is, a custom army of 'your dudes'. I've built a pretty large Deathwatch force (no primaris) using a whole bunch of different space marine kits from pretty much all chapters that had unique chapter specific kits or upgrade parts available. Also rounded it off with some 3D printed shoulder pads for the lesser known chapters. It was an utter joy to build and without a doubt the most fun I've had creating an army.

Sadly primaris isnt quite there yet with chapter specific stuff to really do this.

glados wrote:
I agree with the OP here. Deathwatch have pretty much become a generic chapter flavour that is just Primaris in black.

The faction should have been Ordo Xenos complete with stormtrooper/scion options, good inquisitor options as well as kill teams. The whole unique schtick should have been a book that combined IG and space marine elements with its own twist.

They also need the kits/encouragement to push what the real joy in Deathwatch is, a custom army of 'your dudes'. I've built a pretty large Deathwatch force (no primaris) using a whole bunch of different space marine kits from pretty much all chapters that had unique chapter specific kits or upgrade parts available. Also rounded it off with some 3D printed shoulder pads for the lesser known chapters. It was an utter joy to build and without a doubt the most fun I've had creating an army.

Sadly primaris isnt quite there yet with chapter specific stuff to really do this.

I really wish that's how they did it myself. I've been collecting inquisitors and scions to build my own ordo xenos force regardless of cp inefficiency.