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SemperMortis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Lets see, for 200pts I could have 10 ork lootas which put out 20 S7 AP-1 2D shots a turn on average. At BS 5+ of course.

Averages almost 8 hits a turn. Vs T7 thats 4 wounds and T8 that is 2.6.

Vs a 3+ its 2 wounds and 1.3 and vs a 2+ its 1.3 and .86 unsaved wounds for 2.6 and 1.72 dmg respectively

So when you say the damage output vs vehicles is bad...you mean compared to Marine equivalents. For orkz it would be amazing.

And lets not forget the difference in durability. 10 T4 6+ save wounds vs 12 T8 3+ wounds

You're under the assumption Lootas are good anti-tank, which they are absolutely not.

lol, better than most things we have access to. You could do 12 tankbustas for 204pts, but they are Max range of 24 so fairly different in regards to range and 12 of those little guys nets you 4 hits, 2 exploding 6s for .66 more hits and than 8 rerolls which gets you 2.66 more hits and 1.33 exploding 6s for another .44 hits, grand total 7.7ish hits. Vs a T8 platform that is 3.85 wounds and vs a T5-7 its 5.17

Against 2+ armor that is 1.9 unsaved wounds for 5.7 dmg, Vs a 3+ save its 2.5 unsaved wounds for 7.7 dmg. on the T5-7 its 7.7dmg and 10.3dmg. requiring 24' range and all on a T4 6+ save 1 wound model.

So less than half the range and significantly less durable.

Maybe I'm having a brain fart, but how is 12 Tankbustas less durable than 10 Lootas?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Lets see, for 200pts I could have 10 ork lootas which put out 20 S7 AP-1 2D shots a turn on average. At BS 5+ of course.

Averages almost 8 hits a turn. Vs T7 thats 4 wounds and T8 that is 2.6.

Vs a 3+ its 2 wounds and 1.3 and vs a 2+ its 1.3 and .86 unsaved wounds for 2.6 and 1.72 dmg respectively

So when you say the damage output vs vehicles is bad...you mean compared to Marine equivalents. For orkz it would be amazing.

And lets not forget the difference in durability. 10 T4 6+ save wounds vs 12 T8 3+ wounds

You're under the assumption Lootas are good anti-tank, which they are absolutely not.

lol, better than most things we have access to. You could do 12 tankbustas for 204pts, but they are Max range of 24 so fairly different in regards to range and 12 of those little guys nets you 4 hits, 2 exploding 6s for .66 more hits and than 8 rerolls which gets you 2.66 more hits and 1.33 exploding 6s for another .44 hits, grand total 7.7ish hits. Vs a T8 platform that is 3.85 wounds and vs a T5-7 its 5.17

Against 2+ armor that is 1.9 unsaved wounds for 5.7 dmg, Vs a 3+ save its 2.5 unsaved wounds for 7.7 dmg. on the T5-7 its 7.7dmg and 10.3dmg. requiring 24' range and all on a T4 6+ save 1 wound model.

So less than half the range and significantly less durable.

Maybe I'm having a brain fart, but how is 12 Tankbustas less durable than 10 Lootas?

Less durable than the Gladiator which the topic is about sorry for the confusion.

SemperMortis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Lets see, for 200pts I could have 10 ork lootas which put out 20 S7 AP-1 2D shots a turn on average. At BS 5+ of course.

Averages almost 8 hits a turn. Vs T7 thats 4 wounds and T8 that is 2.6.

Vs a 3+ its 2 wounds and 1.3 and vs a 2+ its 1.3 and .86 unsaved wounds for 2.6 and 1.72 dmg respectively

So when you say the damage output vs vehicles is bad...you mean compared to Marine equivalents. For orkz it would be amazing.

And lets not forget the difference in durability. 10 T4 6+ save wounds vs 12 T8 3+ wounds

You're under the assumption Lootas are good anti-tank, which they are absolutely not.

lol, better than most things we have access to. You could do 12 tankbustas for 204pts, but they are Max range of 24 so fairly different in regards to range and 12 of those little guys nets you 4 hits, 2 exploding 6s for .66 more hits and than 8 rerolls which gets you 2.66 more hits and 1.33 exploding 6s for another .44 hits, grand total 7.7ish hits. Vs a T8 platform that is 3.85 wounds and vs a T5-7 its 5.17

Against 2+ armor that is 1.9 unsaved wounds for 5.7 dmg, Vs a 3+ save its 2.5 unsaved wounds for 7.7 dmg. on the T5-7 its 7.7dmg and 10.3dmg. requiring 24' range and all on a T4 6+ save 1 wound model.

So less than half the range and significantly less durable.

Maybe I'm having a brain fart, but how is 12 Tankbustas less durable than 10 Lootas?

Less durable than the Gladiator which the topic is about sorry for the confusion.

Ah okay gotcha. Yeah for most weapons the Orks will be less durable. Keep in mind too that GW prices Orks for melee ability as well. After all, Tank Bustaz still have AT melee don't they? Not that they get to use it much, but GW prices for that potential.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ah okay gotcha. Yeah for most weapons the Orks will be less durable. Keep in mind too that GW prices Orks for melee ability as well. After all, Tank Bustaz still have AT melee don't they? Not that they get to use it much, but GW prices for that potential.

Nope. Ork Tankbustas are functionally useless in CC against vehicles. The only benefit they have over a standard 8pt boy is that their Tankhunta rule applies in CC as well. So 12 of them would get 24 attacks hitting on 3s rerolling misses so 21ish hits at S4 no AP.

You can opt to give a tankbusta a Tank hammer...but you wouldn't do that except for fun because all it does is D3 mortal wounds if it hits, but then the user dies. And if you have a tankhammer you can't have a rokkit launcha.

And as far as pricing for CC. SM now have as many attacks base as orkz, at least on the turn they start combat. GW just sucks at pricing ork stuff. Hence why the Stompa has been hot garbage forever.

BrianDavion wrote:
well if they're over costed and not all that great I'd say that's a major knock to those who claim that people only buy stuff thats OP because they're already sold out

The Dakka Gladiator is probably pretty close on price. One kit, three store links is why they’re sold out as people will build that one, or magnetize. But the Lancer is pretty bad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ah okay gotcha. Yeah for most weapons the Orks will be less durable. Keep in mind too that GW prices Orks for melee ability as well. After all, Tank Bustaz still have AT melee don't they? Not that they get to use it much, but GW prices for that potential.

Tankbustas are completely useless in CC, the equivalent in points of ork boyz does a better job regardless of the bustas' loadout; however they can benefit from a stratagem that allows every model to throw a Melta Bomb which is extremely powerful if a full squad gets very close to a juicy target.

I can also argue that 12 tankbustas are actually less durable than 10 lootas because the latter will likely be in cover and out of range from most anti infantry weapons as they can fire at targets that are 48'' far way while tankbustas only have 24'' range.

Back on topic, the more I look at the Gladiator, the more I think it's actually a good model. I use a Gunwagon a lot which is 175 points + 1 CP and it's probably worse than the Gladiator.

Also don't forget 12 tankbustas suffers full effects from blast weapons (minimum 24 shots from a wyvern) while 10 Lootas does not (minimum 4 shots from the same weapon).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also don't forget 12 tankbustas suffers full effects from blast weapons (minimum 24 shots from a wyvern) while 10 Lootas does not (minimum 4 shots from the same weapon).

I can't remember if Tankbustas even benefit from their tankhunta rule if they are embarked in a trukk

Depends on how you read it. If your opponent insist they don't you get infinite bomb squigs instead.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also don't forget 12 tankbustas suffers full effects from blast weapons (minimum 24 shots from a wyvern) while 10 Lootas does not (minimum 4 shots from the same weapon).

I can't remember if Tankbustas even benefit from their tankhunta rule if they are embarked in a trukk

In theory they shouldn't, all abilities don't work from transports. But then you can also have a few immortal bomb squigs (since the fact that they are slain after firing is an ability) while the unit is embarked, aka regular BS2+ rokkit guys.

 Blackie wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also don't forget 12 tankbustas suffers full effects from blast weapons (minimum 24 shots from a wyvern) while 10 Lootas does not (minimum 4 shots from the same weapon).

I can't remember if Tankbustas even benefit from their tankhunta rule if they are embarked in a trukk

In theory they shouldn't, all abilities don't work from transports. But then you can also have a few immortal bomb squigs (since the fact that they are slain after firing is an ability) while the unit is embarked, aka regular BS2+ rokkit guys.

That's quite the oversight isn't it?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also don't forget 12 tankbustas suffers full effects from blast weapons (minimum 24 shots from a wyvern) while 10 Lootas does not (minimum 4 shots from the same weapon).

I can't remember if Tankbustas even benefit from their tankhunta rule if they are embarked in a trukk

In theory they shouldn't, all abilities don't work from transports. But then you can also have a few immortal bomb squigs (since the fact that they are slain after firing is an ability) while the unit is embarked, aka regular BS2+ rokkit guys.

That's quite the oversight isn't it?

Are you surprised? GW is not known for tight rules.

 Blackie wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also don't forget 12 tankbustas suffers full effects from blast weapons (minimum 24 shots from a wyvern) while 10 Lootas does not (minimum 4 shots from the same weapon).

I can't remember if Tankbustas even benefit from their tankhunta rule if they are embarked in a trukk

In theory they shouldn't, all abilities don't work from transports. But then you can also have a few immortal bomb squigs (since the fact that they are slain after firing is an ability) while the unit is embarked, aka regular BS2+ rokkit guys.

Abilities work from transports if they are on your datasheet. You just can't be affected by abilities that need you to select a unit or have a unit to affect (basically all stratagems and auras). Tank busta get rerolls from inside their transports. It is interesting about the bomb squigs - can a unit not on the battlefeild be slain? I know they can be destroyed as in reserves that don't enter the battlefield are considered destroyed - slain though...IDK.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also don't forget 12 tankbustas suffers full effects from blast weapons (minimum 24 shots from a wyvern) while 10 Lootas does not (minimum 4 shots from the same weapon).

I can't remember if Tankbustas even benefit from their tankhunta rule if they are embarked in a trukk

In theory they shouldn't, all abilities don't work from transports. But then you can also have a few immortal bomb squigs (since the fact that they are slain after firing is an ability) while the unit is embarked, aka regular BS2+ rokkit guys.

Abilities work from transports if they are on your datasheet. You just can't be affected by abilities that need you to select a unit or have a unit to affect (basically all stratagems and auras). Tank busta get rerolls from inside their transports. It is interesting about the bomb squigs - can a unit not on the battlefeild be slain? I know they can be destroyed as in reserves that don't enter the battlefield are considered destroyed - slain though...IDK.

What happens when a Kastellan robot saves with its invuln on a 6 against a shot coming from something inside an open-topped transport?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also don't forget 12 tankbustas suffers full effects from blast weapons (minimum 24 shots from a wyvern) while 10 Lootas does not (minimum 4 shots from the same weapon).

I can't remember if Tankbustas even benefit from their tankhunta rule if they are embarked in a trukk

In theory they shouldn't, all abilities don't work from transports. But then you can also have a few immortal bomb squigs (since the fact that they are slain after firing is an ability) while the unit is embarked, aka regular BS2+ rokkit guys.

That's quite the oversight isn't it?

Are you surprised? GW is not known for tight rules.

Oh trust me I'm not surprised at all

 Xenomancers wrote:


Abilities work from transports if they are on your datasheet. You just can't be affected by abilities that need you to select a unit or have a unit to affect (basically all stratagems and auras). Tank busta get rerolls from inside their transports. It is interesting about the bomb squigs - can a unit not on the battlefeild be slain? I know they can be destroyed as in reserves that don't enter the battlefield are considered destroyed - slain though...IDK.

Is there a FAQ that says what kind of abilties work and what don't? Because all I see is the generic term "abilities", with no exceptions between abilities from the unit's datasheet, abilities from the chapter or any other abilties. Stratagems are not abilities, they don't work because the unit is not on the table which means it can't be selected for a stratagem while auras don't work because embarked units can't be within X'' to benefit from an aura, psychic power, litany, etc...

RAW there's clearly a mistake with open topped rule but it is what it is. We can either house rule it or play it strictly RAW with all the odd consequences.

The rule says you NORMALLY can't use abilities. When you're allowed to shoot, it is not normal and this obvious implicitly means rules that are part of the gun you are firing would apply. Claiming they dont is frankly rules lawyering of the worst kind.

 Stux wrote:
The rule says you NORMALLY can't use abilities. When you're allowed to shoot, it is not normal and this obvious implicitly means rules that are part of the gun you are firing would apply. Claiming they dont is frankly rules lawyering of the worst kind.

Either you can use abilities while shooting or you can't.

If you interpret it as if you can, it affects all abilities, including clan traits, the unit's and the weapon's abilities. Which means that squigs die when you shoot them, but you can use re-rolls to hit on the tankbusta unit.
If you interpret it as if you can't, then none of the abilities can affect these attacks. Which means that the tankbustas cannot use their re-rolls or clan traits, but also means that squigs don't die when they shoot.

The first interpretation seems like the most sensible one, since it doesn't cause any weird rules-interactions.
It's merely yet another badly written rule, calling people playing it one way or the other rules lawyers is nothing but victim blaming.

The only people who really are rules lawyers are those people playing against orks and drukhari who claim that the passengers of transports are not affected by abilities granting a benefits, but still insist that negative effects apply. There is no rules support for this.

Its not all or nothing. Thats your reading of it.

Its very clear to me that if I'm allowed to shoot my gun, the rules on that gun will apply. Doesnt mean I can use a strat on it though, thats different. The gun has permission to shoot which implicitly means the abilities that are inextricably tied to it will apply.

Strategems (as well as anything that requires you to be "within" of something) are out of question because units in transports are not on the table, not even while shooting.

Essentially your interpretation is the first one I listed.

 Stux wrote:
Its not all or nothing. Thats your reading of it.

Its very clear to me that if I'm allowed to shoot my gun, the rules on that gun will apply.

Why should the rules on the gun apply and the rules on the gunner don't? We have three different kinds of abilities for an embarked unit that are referred to the unit and are not generated by external sources (like stratagems, auras, psychic powers, etc...):

- Abilities from the gun
- Abilities from the unit's datasheet
- Abilities granted by being part of a legal detachment

They're all in the exact same same spot, you can't say one is legit and the other two aren't. RAI it's very clear to me that if I'm allowed to shoot my gun I can shoot with all the rules I have with me. This is how we play in my group, basically like in 8th.

But it's an house rule and something that must be clarified before playing. In a tournament an organizer can say no ability works. At all. And there's nothing you can do about it because RAW he's right.

 Blackie wrote:
They're all in the exact same same spot, you can't say one is legit and the other two aren't. RAI it's very clear to me that if I'm allowed to shoot my gun I can shoot with all the rules I have with me. This is how we play in my group, basically like in 8th.

But it's an house rule and something that must be clarified before playing. In a tournament an organizer can say no ability works. At all. And there's nothing you can do about it because RAW he's right.

Hmmm. I'd say house interpretation rather than rule - and one which is near universal at least in my experience.
I guess you always meet rules lawyers in 40k but this feels like ye olde "the assault rule doesn't mean you can shoot" nonsense.

 Blackie wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Its not all or nothing. Thats your reading of it.

Its very clear to me that if I'm allowed to shoot my gun, the rules on that gun will apply.

Why should the rules on the gun apply and the rules on the gunner don't? We have three different kinds of abilities for an embarked unit that are referred to the unit and are not generated by external sources (like stratagems, auras, psychic powers, etc...):

- Abilities from the gun
- Abilities from the unit's datasheet
- Abilities granted by being part of a legal detachment

They're all in the exact same same spot, you can't say one is legit and the other two aren't. RAI it's very clear to me that if I'm allowed to shoot my gun I can shoot with all the rules I have with me. This is how we play in my group, basically like in 8th.

But it's an house rule and something that must be clarified before playing. In a tournament an organizer can say no ability works. At all. And there's nothing you can do about it because RAW he's right.

I think it is pretty clear that you can. The datasheet ability usually reads like "when making an attack". That is the only condition that needs to be met. Are you making an attack? Yes. You would in fact be breaking the rules if you didn't follow what the rest of that rule was. Example - say a weapon was to have -1 to hit flyers or something. Would the camp that says you would then ignore the negative if firing from inside the transport?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Its not all or nothing. Thats your reading of it.

Its very clear to me that if I'm allowed to shoot my gun, the rules on that gun will apply.

Why should the rules on the gun apply and the rules on the gunner don't? We have three different kinds of abilities for an embarked unit that are referred to the unit and are not generated by external sources (like stratagems, auras, psychic powers, etc...):

- Abilities from the gun
- Abilities from the unit's datasheet
- Abilities granted by being part of a legal detachment

They're all in the exact same same spot, you can't say one is legit and the other two aren't. RAI it's very clear to me that if I'm allowed to shoot my gun I can shoot with all the rules I have with me. This is how we play in my group, basically like in 8th.

But it's an house rule and something that must be clarified before playing. In a tournament an organizer can say no ability works. At all. And there's nothing you can do about it because RAW he's right.

I think it is pretty clear that you can. The datasheet ability usually reads like "when making an attack". That is the only condition that needs to be met. Are you making an attack? Yes. You would in fact be breaking the rules if you didn't follow what the rest of that rule was. Example - say a weapon was to have -1 to hit flyers or something. Would the camp that says you would then ignore the negative if firing from inside the transport?

Given the way the rules are written... One can make that argument.

Open-Topped is a hot mess of garbage rules writing.

Open-topped should be :

Models embarked in this transport can still shoot. For any attack made by these models, treat them as being on the battlefield wholly within the transports base/hull.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Its not all or nothing. Thats your reading of it.

Its very clear to me that if I'm allowed to shoot my gun, the rules on that gun will apply.

Why should the rules on the gun apply and the rules on the gunner don't? We have three different kinds of abilities for an embarked unit that are referred to the unit and are not generated by external sources (like stratagems, auras, psychic powers, etc...):

- Abilities from the gun
- Abilities from the unit's datasheet
- Abilities granted by being part of a legal detachment

They're all in the exact same same spot, you can't say one is legit and the other two aren't. RAI it's very clear to me that if I'm allowed to shoot my gun I can shoot with all the rules I have with me. This is how we play in my group, basically like in 8th.

But it's an house rule and something that must be clarified before playing. In a tournament an organizer can say no ability works. At all. And there's nothing you can do about it because RAW he's right.

I think it is pretty clear that you can. The datasheet ability usually reads like "when making an attack". That is the only condition that needs to be met. Are you making an attack? Yes. You would in fact be breaking the rules if you didn't follow what the rest of that rule was. Example - say a weapon was to have -1 to hit flyers or something. Would the camp that says you would then ignore the negative if firing from inside the transport?

Given the way the rules are written... One can make that argument.

Open-Topped is a hot mess of garbage rules writing.

IDK if it really is a big a mess as I am seeing in this thread. I've come across rules debates in game before but never about this.

 Xenomancers wrote:
IDK if it really is a big a mess as I am seeing in this thread. I've come across rules debates in game before but never about this.

Yeah, no. Open-Topped was broken in 8th, and remains that way in 9th.

For instance-Dark Eldar, some of the biggest users of Open-Topped Transports, might not have their guns work, since they do damage solely off an ability.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Open-topped should be :

Models embarked in this transport can still shoot. For any attack made by these models, treat them as being on the battlefield wholly within the transports base/hull.

I think the idea here was to make it impossible for the units inside to benefit from an outside source. I understand that so it is easy for me to see the way the rule is intended. They aren't trying to make the mess they have made with the wording. They just don't expect people to take it this far because well frankly...they are Englishmen. They consider it absurd that anyone would take it so far.

I would write it this way.
"Units embarked on an open topped transport are eligible to make shooting attacks. For the purposes of movement they count as having moved if the vehicle moved in the previous movement phase. If the vehicle is not eligible to shoot the occupants are also not eligible to shoot. For the purposes of auras they can not benefit from auras and no stratagems can be targeted/selected to the unit embarked on the transport."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
IDK if it really is a big a mess as I am seeing in this thread. I've come across rules debates in game before but never about this.

Yeah, no. Open-Topped was broken in 8th, and remains that way in 9th.

For instance-Dark Eldar, some of the biggest users of Open-Topped Transports, might not have their guns work, since they do damage solely off an ability.

Flayed skull literally grants units embarked in transports an ability.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Flayed skull literally grants units embarked in transports an ability.

yeah but poisoned weapons is an ability.

As for making open-topped jank just to dodge auras, why? Why can't the dudes in the venom benefit from the Archon rerolls thats affecting the venom itself.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Flayed skull literally grants units embarked in transports an ability.

yeah but poisoned weapons is an ability.

As for making open-topped jank just to dodge auras, why? Why can't the dudes in the venom benefit from the Archon rerolls thats affecting the venom itself.

Also, it's possible for GW to crap the bed and grant an ability that does nothing.