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I am Chaos playing against Dwarfs (Revised 2005 version)

Neither of us have played either army before.

The more I am reading about War Machines the more concerned I am becoming about a particular cannon tactic that doesn't seem to be illegal (we have all 3 Elf armies and Greenskins so we use Bolt Throwers ALOT but are novices with all other War Machines)

I am considering running a Cavalry Charge strategy with a big hammer unit of Chosen Knights since they seem to be crazy good. However, with their extreme cost and Dwarfs' ability to bring Cannons, I want to make sure I understand how cannons could target them correctly...

I understand that they are Str 10 and no armour saves allowed, and I understand how they "bounce like a lacrosse ball" to make a hit line through models. What I am confused about is the TARGETING RESTRICTIONS of a cannon.
They explicitly write that Bolt Throwers travel straight and hit first thing in their path AKA you need normal missile LOS. They explicitly write that Stone Throwers do not need normal missile LOS they just need to "be aware that the enemy is in that direction." For cannons, though, they talk about how one might incorrectly over-estimate distance, or get a huge "10" artillery roll added, making the cannon ball "fly overhead" past the targeted unit. They suggest guessing a few inches short for this reason.

Immediately as competitive guys who see exploiting rules as fair play (because its just the two of us and we make house rules to shut down incredibly broken tactics after they are demonstrated) we are wondering: is there anything that explicitly says Corey wouldn't be allowed to target a unit of Chosen Knights with a cannon if that unit of Knights is BEHIND a meat shield of Warhounds? The only targeting restrictions they put in the Big Red Book page 122 is that "it must be turned in the direction of the intended target." If my Warhounds are a foot away, and my Knights are another 6" behind them, is he allowed to guess like 14" and intentionally shoot over the Warhounds? He WOULD technically still be firing in their direction.


Again, we're looking to see if this is STRICTLY LEGAL, not if it is a "jerk move." We would eventually install a house rule after a few Dwarf games if we determined it felt too jerky to play against.

The answer will probably determine whether he brings cannons vs stone throwers or determine if I use Warhounds as a meatshield or pick a different strategy.

The important part of cannons is the estimation + artillery dice. LOS is irrelevant.
Example: a cannon is 24" away of your unit of Hounds and some Knights are just behind them, each on a single rank. Cannon guesses 22" and gets a 10" rebound. If facing the front of the Hounds and Knight, Hounds will first receive 1 hit and then Knights another one if the hound was killed.

I think it's that, if I remember correctly.

Dwarf shooting phase can be very painful. The dreaded dwarf-castle-gunline is probably the most unfun way of playing whfb.

OK, if LOS is irrelevant, can we shoot cannons over woods? Woods are 12" away Knights are 6" behind that. he guesses 12" and rolls a 6. Does that hit the Knights or did the woods stop the cannon ball?


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OK so from what I understand, he can't bring an Anvil to a 1500 Pt game because there is no Lord slot open. Either way he has 0 offensive magic (as in, 0 Power Dice during the Magic Phase) and will have a TON of dispel dice.

For that reason, is it dumb to just ignore magic and run a Khorne army so my guys get Frenzy?

I also still need to make sure I understand how cannons work before I finalize my list but here's what I'm thinking so far:


HERO:
Exalted Champion of Chaos. Mark of Khorne (Hero). Mounted on Juggernaut of Khorne. Chaos Armour & Shield. Additional Hand Weapon for CC. 196 Pts.

CORE (MORTAL 2+):
Chosen Knights of Chaos x 10. Mark of Khorne (Regiment). Mounted on Barded Steeds. Chaos Armour & Shields. Full Command. 545 Pts.
Chariot of Chaos. Mark of Khorne (Chariot). Pulled by Barded Steeds. Chariot has Scythed Wheels. 150 Pts.
Warhounds of Chaos x 11. 66 Pts.

SPECIAL (BEASTS/DAEMONIC 0-3):
Chaos Furies x 10. 150 Pts.
Flesh Hounds of Khorne x 5. 80 Pts.
Flesh Hounds of Khorne x 5. 80 Pts.

RARE (0-1):
Dragon Ogres x 3. Light Armour (Total Armour Save 4+). 231 Pts.


This possible army would have me bringing 7 Units that can all move 7" and a unit of flyers to go hunt war machines in the backline. I bring 0 Shooting and 0 Magic, angling to engage in CC to counter his plan of shooting. His units have move ranges of 3" and he will have 0 power dice but minimum 4 dispel dice. I'm obviously concerned that I'm putting all my eggs in the same basket with the Chosen Knights but they're frenzied so they're Immune to Psych until they get to CC and that means I wanted to put enough of them in the unit that taking some casualties from Shooting before the charge connected wouldnt be the end of the world. Once I know how cannons work I can use terrain/meat shields accordingly to protect them as well.

VBS wrote:
The important part of cannons is the estimation + artillery dice. LOS is irrelevant.

No, it is not irrelevant, in the sense that you still have to be able to have a legal target in LOS the direction you want to fire at.
But you are not limited in your guessing-range when firing except for the maximum range of the cannon, which is 60" I think.

So, yes, you can shoot at targets not in LOS, if they are somewhere BEHIND another unit which is in LOS, which you claim you are aiming at.
Strictly RAW, it is allowed, you can do it, It is considered bad sportsmanship usually cos RAW doesn't match RAI here, but as you especially stated this is not of any concern to you and you both agree on this, see this as a possibility to shoot at units you cannot shoot at usually.




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MattyFenby wrote:
OK, if LOS is irrelevant, can we shoot cannons over woods? Woods are 12" away Knights are 6" behind that. he guesses 12" and rolls a 6. Does that hit the Knights or did the woods stop the cannon ball?

You could, if in front of the wood was a legal target, and in the prolonged line behind the forest was the intended target somewhere.
If the guess range plus 1st artillery dice is enough to fly over the forest, it would theoretically be possible.

MattyFenby wrote:
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OK so from what I understand, he can't bring an Anvil to a 1500 Pt game because there is no Lord slot open. Either way he has 0 offensive magic and will have a TON of dispel dice.

For that reason, is it dumb to just ignore magic and run a Khorne army so my guys get Frenzy?

I also still need to make sure I understand how cannons work before I finalize my list but here's what I'm thinking so far:


HERO:
Exalted Champion of Chaos. Mark of Khorne (Hero). Mounted on Juggernaut of Khorne. Chaos Armour & Shield. Additional Hand Weapon for CC. 196 Pts.

CORE (MORTAL 2+):
Chosen Knights of Chaos x 10. Mark of Khorne (Regiment). Mounted on Barded Steeds. Chaos Armour & Shields. Full Command. 545 Pts.
Chariot of Chaos. Mark of Khorne (Chariot). Pulled by Barded Steeds. Chariot has Scythed Wheels. 150 Pts.
Warhounds of Chaos x 11. 66 Pts.

SPECIAL (BEASTS/DAEMONIC 0-3):
Chaos Furies x 10. 150 Pts.
Flesh Hounds of Khorne x 5. 80 Pts.
Flesh Hounds of Khorne x 5. 80 Pts.

RARE (0-1):
Dragon Ogres x 3. Light Armour (Total Armour Save 4+). 231 Pts.


This possible army would have me bringing 7 Units that can all move 7" and a unit of flyers to go hunt war machines in the backline. I bring 0 Shooting and 0 Magic, angling to engage in CC to counter his plan of shooting. His units have move ranges of 3" and he will have 0 power dice but minimum 4 dispel dice. I'm obviously concerned that I'm putting all my eggs in the same basket with the Chosen Knights but they're frenzied so they're Immune to Psych until they get to CC and that means I wanted to put enough of them in the unit that taking some casualties from Shooting before the charge connected wouldnt be the end of the world. Once I know how cannons work I can use terrain/meat shields accordingly to protect them as well.

As he will have almost no re-directors with Dwarves, that list could work very well. You would not have to worry to be lured away with your frenzied units from his main battle line.

To make sure the LOS of your Main combat unit is aimed at the correct target and prevent it from being flanked, I would split the unit of Chaos Warhounds into 2 units.

If I were the dwarf player, I would throw in some stubborn Hammerers to block your main unit and then countercharge with cheap clan warriors with 2 handed weapons as tin openers. If you

OK I appreciate you clearing that up. We'll discuss it since we like definitely do like being competitive but I guess if it wasn't their intent while writing it.... IDK, sometimes we like to take their intent while writing it into account too, I guess. Then again, I kind of like the idea of Bolt Thrower needing full LOS, Cannons needing partial LOS, and then Stone Throwers just needing to know the battle is that way. We'll go over it and I'll see how he feels about it.

As for splitting the mortal war hounds into two units, I can give that a look.

OK, here's what I'm thinking as of now. Excel attached with all weapons and rules. Still have a giant points unit of Chosen Frenzied Knights behind some meat shields but I beefed up the Chaos Furies to go do some work in the backline.

HERO:
Exalted Champion of Chaos. Mark of Khorne (Hero). Mounted on Juggernaut of Khorne. Chaos Armour & Shield. Additional Hand Weapon for CC. 196 Pts.

CORE (MORTAL 2+):
Chosen Knights of Chaos x 10. Mark of Khorne (Regiment). Mounted on Barded Steeds. Chaos Armour & Shields. Full Command. 545 Pts.
Chariot of Chaos. Pulled by Barded Steeds. Chariot has Scythed Wheels. 120 Pts.
Warhounds of Chaos x 5. 30 Pts.

SPECIAL (BEASTS/DAEMONIC 0-3):
Chaos Furies x 14. 210 Pts.
Flesh Hounds of Khorne x 5. 80 Pts.
Flesh Hounds of Khorne x 5. 80 Pts.

RARE (0-1):
Dragon Ogres x 3. Light Armour (Total Armour Save 4+). 231 Pts.


TOTAL: 1492 Pts



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MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT DWARFS:

A Dwarf Cannon includes the Engineer upgrade. As long as he is part of the crew, they can re roll a misfire. This Cannon also buys the Rune of Forging, which allows you to re-roll misfires. Multiples of the RUNE have no effect, but does the player now have 2 misfire re-rolls each turn since they come from different sources?

A Dwarf Cannon includes the Engineer upgrade. Can a Master Engineer embed in this unit also? That way it can be entrenched & cause D6 wounds instead of D3 (Master), AND benefit from the Misfire re-roll (Engineer)? Can they both confer their bonuses to the same Cannon in the same Shooting Phase?

It appears that neither an Engineer nor a Master Engineer may join an Organ Gun, is that correct?

Oi, that Dwarf book is sooooooo imbalanced...


First things first as far as the Engineer + Rune of Forging. The rulebook explicitly states you can never reroll a reroll. Ever. No matter how many times you try to change the source, you can never reroll a reroll.

It specifically says in the War Machine crew entry "If joined by a Master Engineer and/or an Engineer..." so I'd say there's your answer. My understanding is that you get both perks, but the only conflict would be rerolling rerolls.

And no, they can't join an Organ Gun.

I'll discuss your list later...

Other than the Anvil of Doom which I know you hate, what else is broken about Dwarfs 2005? Off the bat, I'm seeing that their Ld is very high but I assumed this was to offset how they have no speed or access to cavalry in a very whomever-gets-the-charges-off-wins type of game. They are great on Dispel Dice defense but in a less-than-2000-pt-list they have 0 offensive magic capability. Obviously I have no idea how they look in practice so that's why I'm asking all these questions.

Thank you very much to everybody for taking a look at this and for all your feedback. It's a great community here and has helped us to live in a bubble in 2005 to play 6th Edition.

There's a thread on classichammer where I go into detail on everything wrong with that book. I'll bump it so it's first on the front page.

As far as your list, that Knight unit is 1/3 of your army. Nothing left had the ability to generate enough CR to break a Dwarf line unit, regardless of any of their elite units. Khorne help you if they take any decent number of Thunderers.


A cannon can kill 1 model a turn in the army you have with the exception of the Knights who can lose 2 until you no longer have a back rank. The biggest danger to your army from the cannons would be D3 or potentially D6 wounds on the Dragon Ogres. There are far worse things in that army than cannons.

OK, thanks Tony.

I've read over your gripes about Revised. Since we never played 6.0, it's hard to gauge whether the changes were way too far or not. (But we have found we agree with most of your assessments so far)

We chose to live in a bubble in 2005 though, and I lead the charge hard on that decision, so that's the book we're going with. If we end up finding that Dwarfs are winning every game we can do something about it.

As for the concern over the Knights, I definitely share that eggs in one basket worry, but should I be splitting them into two units of 6? Should I be dropping the "Chosen" purchase and dropping some Special Points to make room for more Knights in a second unit? It seems like going for a block of Warriors can't be the right play against a Dwarf Gun Castle... can it?


I'm drawing up a variant now with 2 Knight units, hemming and hawing over Chosens. I've heard very good things and I wanted to run a fast army vs these guns but they are NOT cheap and it is only a 1500 point game.



This is 2 months in a row now that I need help against a 2005 list and am hearing that it's going to be an uphill climb... makes me so sad that they went to 7th Edition after that instead of giving my Greenskins a 2006 update with spiders and simpler animosity and black orcs armed to da teef and doomdivers that can steer d3 inches...



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How about this variant: dropped the Chariot since it wont win CR on its own and is vulnerable to shooting. 2 Units of non chosen but still frenzied Knights. Furies bumped up to 16 (I should be pretty confident in their ability to win combats vs War Machine crews, right?) and trimmed the warhounds that I have been told are more for show than anything else anyways. I MUST run Dragon Ogres and he MUST run an Organ Gun as our Rare choices.

How do we feel about the overall strat of ignoring magic for a frenzied fast mover army?


HERO:
Exalted Champion of Chaos. Mark of Khorne (Hero). Mounted on Juggernaut of Khorne. Chaos Armour & Shield. Additional Hand Weapon for CC. 196 Pts.

CORE (MORTAL 2+):
Knights of Khorne x 9. Mark of Khorne (Regiment). Full Command. 392 Pts.
Knights of Khorne x 8. Mark of Khorne (Regiment). Full Command. 359 Pts

SPECIAL (BEASTS/DAEMONIC 0-3):
Chaos Furies x 16. 240 Pts.
Flesh Hounds of Khorne x 5. 80 Pts.

RARE (0-1):
Dragon Ogres x 3. Light Armour (Total Armour Save 4+). 231 Pts.


TOTAL: 1498 Pts

My opinion of Frenzy? You gain 1 attack that you can lose solely by losing combat, and since you have no standing resolution that may happen faster than you'd like. Not to mention that Frenzied troops can be led about by the nose with ease. Does he know he can get fast cav from Dogs Of War? Scouting Rangers can also do this, OR he can bait you to a charge against Unbreakable Slayers and tarpit your Knights for the duration of the game.


Stop worrying about losing models. It's going to happen inevitably, whether from shooting or combat. Warhammer is a long game, like chess. Instant wipeouts with no response is Magic: the Gathering territory. Your mindset should be to think of what happens AFTER you make it to the battle line. All the speed in the world isn't going to matter if you can't do anything once you're there.

Also, what is with required units? Especially when you have something like a required monster unit and a war machine that is damn near designed explicitly to wipe that unit out in one round of shooting.



EDIT:

So a cursory look at the Dwarf book gives me a few points for you to consider. A Dwarf Warriors unit at 20 man with full command and shields is 205 points. This unit is T4, has a 3+ save in hand to hand, and a rather ridiculous Leadership. Does your 8 man Knight unit have what it takes to take this unit down 4 wounds on the charge? That's what it takes to TIE combat.

And that's just 1 unit. Does he have a character in it to REALLY guff up your charge? Does he simply stick Slayers out front so you're forced to charge them because Frenzy? Thunderers only cost 14 points per model. If he's at all frugal with his points choices he'll outnumber your forces 3 to 1 at BEST for you. Maybe even 4 to 1. Every point you can get into actual units instead of upgrades that will do nothing for you in the long run will benefit you. I also notice you don't run a single Marauder anything, or a single Beast unit. That's a fast and cheap way to get bodies on the field, and your faster stuff will draw fire to let your bulk units do their job. Hell, a Beast Herd travelling way faster than your battle line will draw a disproportionate amount of fire simply for being more of a threat. If they ignore it? Great, it gets rank bonuses and tons of attacks.

OK, a lot of critiques to consider.

Any solutions you would recommend? EDIT: That was a stupid thing to ask when you suggested marauders and beasts. Looking into the cost on bringing them now. EDIT: Could I maybe replace the 2 units of Knights w 3 units of 15 Marauder Horsemen w flails and Shields and full commands (285 pts each)? DOUBLE EDIT: actually that's dumb theyre fast cavalry so those ranks are useless. *sigh* nevermind

EDIT: Is the Furies unit too big? Any feedback/advice on them?

As for the required units those are models we just acquired and wanted to see in action. Weren't considering balance when we made the call.

I hear you on making sure I win combats once I get there... I also have to get there though. I've had some frustrating games as greenskins vs wood elves where I never get across the battlefield in the first place.


EDIT: I am looking at the math of your thought experiment. a 5 Knight frenzied front only does an estimated 2-3 wounds so you are right... so I definitely see how my list is not going to work. I guess I will look at a bigger block of warriors or beasts or marauders. When I set out to start making the army, my fantasy was a 10 strong unit of Chosen Frenzied knights that would deliver 16 WS 5 STR 5 attacks across the front (4-5 wounds expected during charge), and have 1 Rank, and have a Standard + Musician. I thought that would be my hammer unit. Then it ends up being like 600 pts so I split it into two Knight Units but now I can't afford Chosen and I now see that this brings us past that break point of them being able to really carry a combat


TRIPLE EDIT: Maybe I can keep one unit of frenzied knights and I put my juggernaut in it and that puts that unit back over the line for usefulness? He allows me to keep 2 ranks longer, we'll be able to outnumber, and I spend the rest of the pts on a block of marauders or something? Chaos has so many different things to consider. Maybe I go back to the drawing board and try to find a way to make magic work with power dice items?


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How about this variant: {General will embed with Frenzied Knights. They are now Unit Strength 21, 2 Ranks, Full Command, and a ton of high WS, high STR attacks coming in on the charge, which they will be able to get with immunity to psych and auto-measuring the charges} Am I being too sentimental refusing to let go of the Frenzied Knights fantasy, or would the numbers maybe work now?


HERO:
Exalted Champion of Chaos. Mark of Khorne (Hero). Mounted on Juggernaut of Khorne. Chaos Armour & Shield. Additional Hand Weapon for CC. 196 Pts.

CORE (MORTAL 2+):
Knights of Khorne x 8. Mark of Khorne (Regiment). Full Command. 359 Pts
Marauders x 25. Flails, Light Armour, Shields, Full Command. 225 Pts.

SPECIAL (BEASTS/DAEMONIC 0-3):
Chaos Furies x 18. 270 Pts.
Beast Herd: Gors x 15 and Ungors x 15 (do they have to be equal? should my ratio be different? total novice at beasts) Full Command. 215 pts.

RARE (0-1):
Dragon Ogres x 3. Light Armour (Total Armour Save 4+). 231 Pts.


TOTAL: 1496 Pts

They do NOT have to be evenly mixed Gors and Ungors. I personally wouldn't run more than 10 Furies, but it's time to take something into consideration: this is YOUR army. Ultimately you go with what you like, and try to work the effectiveness out as you go. Will there be trial and error? Of course. Run that expensive bus. It'll either do well or not, but it'll still be YOUR vision and what YOU want on the field. You'll learn either way. There's a reason I stopped running certain units, and that's experience. Experience is what you need now.




THAT and without even knowing how his force will potentially look, it's like solving for X without any sort of equation.

16 ws 5 S5 plus 5 ws3 s4 for the horses...

That has always been in consideration, don't worry. I do like to bounce army variants off of you guys and benefit from your wisdom though. We are exchanging lists today and I am going to 'run the bus' but I am also going to take your CR math advice into consideration as well. I'm dropping their Frenzy and instead relying on good leadership/re-rolling psych tests to get them through the shooting instead of the immune to psych that Frenzy gives and I'm adding a War Banner for them to give them another point of CR once they are actually across the field.

Is there any reason why one might cap their Furies at 10? Just a point of diminishing returns? I want to really get after his war machines and I can't split the Furies into 2 units.


I definitely wasn't sure how big to make my herd so I tried to err on the side of more bodies. Ungors are the human shields in transit and Gors get it done on arrival.


Once again, I can't tell you guys how much I appreciate all the help and expertise.


The following is the list I am sending over to Corey, so unless I have done something illegal with the Beast Herd this is what I will be bringing to our final battle of the year.

HERO:
Exalted Champion of Chaos. Mark of Chaos Undivided. Mounted on Daemonic Mount. Chaos Armour & Shield. Additional Hand Weapon for CC. 156 Pts.

CORE (MORTAL 2+):
Knights of Chaos x 10. Mark of Chaos Undivided. Full Command. Magic Standard: The War Banner (addtl +1 to CR) 405 Pts
Marauder Horsemen x 6. Flails. Musician. 96 Pts.

SPECIAL (BEASTS/DAEMONIC 0-3):
Chaos Furies x 16. 240 Pts.
Beast Herd: Gors x 23 and Ungors x 18. Full Command. 276 pts.
Flesh Hounds of Khorne x 6. 96 Pts.

RARE (0-1):
Dragon Ogres x 3. Light Armour (Total Armour Save 4+). 231 Pts.

TOTAL: 1500 Pts

LIST EXCHANGE COMPLETE, HERE IS THE DWARF ARMY:

HEROES (1-3):
Master Engineer. Dwarf Handgun, Rune of Reloading. 90 Pts.
Thane . Pistol. Master Rune of Gromril. Rune of Resistance. Oath Stone.150 Pts.
Runesmith . Rune of Challenge. Rune of Iron. 110 Pts.

CORE (2+):
Warriors x 10. 80 Pts.
Longbeards x 14. 154 Pts.
Thunderers x 10. Shields. Full Command. 175 Pts.

SPECIAL (0-3):
Bolt Thrower. Engineer. 60 Pts.
Bolt Thrower 45 Pts.
Miners x 10. Blasting Charges. Steam Drill. Full Command. 190 Pts.
Hammerers x 23. Magic Standard: Rune Standard of Courage (Unit is Immune to Fear and Terror). Full Command. 336 Pts.

RARE (0-1):
Organ Gun. 120 Pts

TOTAL: 1500 Pts

BATTLE REPORT:


The day began well enough, when I won the dice roll that allowed me to pick which side of the table I wanted. I took the only side that had a hill so he was unable to make any great War Machine placements.

I was lucky enough to ALSO win the roll to move first even though he had the +1 from finishing his deployment early. I had no Magic or Shooting and nobody got into combat in the Top of the 1st. I moved my lines up and hid my Dragon Ogres behind a Forest Terrain in the middle of the board.
In the Bottom of the 1st, his War Machines were unable to do much except a few wounds to my Furies.

In the Top of the 2nd, I moved my Dragon Ogres into the middle of the Forest for safety. My Furies and my Flesh Hounds of Khorne were able to successfully charge one of his Bolt Throwers and his Organ Gun, routing both. However, Corey also made a smart play here and used his Rune of Challenge to force my Knights of Chaos into a charge against his Longbeards and Runesmith rather than the Thunderers I had been lining up. I charged in and broke the Longbeards in one turn, but their flee was so short that his giant unit of Hammerers was able to get an angle on my Knights' flank in the Bottom of the 2nd. His Thunderers charged my Knights' other flank and they broke in the first turn of combat, losing my Banner to his most elite unit. His Hammerers pursued my Knights into a fresh enemy: my Beast Herd. His Miners came onto the board in the Bottom of the 2nd behind his lines to try and deal with the flanking Hounds and Furies I was sending.

In the Top of the 3rd, I managed to rally my Knights and move my Marauders into a screening position in between the Knights and the final Bolt Thrower. My Furies, Flesh Hounds, and Dragon Ogres all moved into a position to flank or rear charge his army or engage his trailing Miners. My Beast Herd, however, lost the combat that had been pending since they were pursued into by the enemy Hammerers. They broke and lost THEIR banner to the Hammerers as well. In the Bottom of the 3rd, he declared a charge with his Hammerers against my depleted Knights, who fled as a reaction. He redirected his charge to the Beast Herd, which was already fleeing, and had no choice but to continue fleeing. His Thunderers and Warriors both declared charges against my Marauders, which also fled as a response.

At halftime the score was about even but I had 3 units fleeing and things were looking worse than expected with his Hammerers reigning supreme.

In the Top of the 4th, I was able to rally my Knights and my Beast Herd, but my Marauders continued fleeing almost off of the board, only spared by an inch and a half from doom. My Furies declared a charge into the rear of his Thunderers, who stood and shot as a response after passing their Fear test. My Dragon Ogres and Flesh Hounds charged into his Miners after they passed their Fear test. They also decided to stand and shoot with their Blasting Charges, which killed one of my Dragon Ogre models on the way in. His Miners were ultimately able to win the combat, and my Flesh Hounds disintegrated, failing their Daemonic Instability test. Back at the Furies vs Thunderers combat, my Furies won the fight and set off a Fear Autobreak situation, where only an Insane Courage roll of snake-eyes could save his Thunderers.

THEY. ROLLED. DOUBLE. ONES. So at the end of the phase I still had wounded Dragon Ogres in a combat vs his Miners and Furies in a combat vs his Thunderers.

In the Bottom of the 4th he again declared a charge against my Knights with his Hammerers, and this time I decided not to flee, although maybe I should have? It was tough to decide whether I wanted to flee now or try and at least Challenge his Thane and then flee later. His last remaining Bolt Thrower fired an amazing shot into the side of my fleeing Marauders and took out 4 models. In CC, his Hammerers killed the last remaining Knights and all that was left was my Exalted Champion on a Daemonic Mount, who was unable to wound his Thane. My General fled. His Thunderers won this round of CC against the Furies, who disintegrated failing their Instability test. His Miners also finished off my Dragon Ogres. Things were looking pretty desperate.

In the Top of the 5th, my Beast Herd charged into the flank of his Hammerers, and his Thane "set the stone." Miraculously, my Beast Herd was able to win the combat and break the Stubborn, Ld 9 Dwarf Hammerers! (CR: Beasts had 2 Ranks + outnumber + 3 wounds, Hammerers has 3 Ranks + Standard but did 0 wounds. Stubborn, so Ld still at 9 and they rolled an 11!) He ran, dropping his two trophy banners and allowing me to capture THEIR BANNER, along with another 100 VP from his General's death!

In the Bottom of the 5th, he moved his Miners to capture the other Quadrant on his half of the table, and was able to kill one Ungor with his Bolt Thrower.

In the Top of the 6th, there was no way for me to capture another Quadrant, or get anyone into CC, and without Magic or Shooting, I deferred my turn.

In the Bottom of the 6th, Corey finished moving his Miners to the other half of the far side of the table and killed one more Ungor by bolt (but not enough to trigger half health).


The game ended in a draw, with the final Victory Points as follows:

CHAOS VICTORY POINTS: 1230 Points

Longbeards destroyed: 154 Pts.
Bolt Thrower w Engineer destroyed: 60 Pts.
Organ Gun destroyed: 120 Pts.
Hammerers destroyed: 336 Pts.
Hammerers Banner captured: 100 Pts.
Thane destroyed: 150 Pts.
General killed: 100 Pts.
Runesmith destroyed: 110 Pts.
One Quadrant captured: 100 Pts.


DWARFS VICTORY POINTS: 1321

Exalted Champion of Chaos half credit (not including Mount): 53
Knights of Chaos destroyed: 405 Pts.
Marauder Horsemen destroyed: 96 Pts.
Chaos Furies destroyed: 240 Pts.
Flesh Hounds destroyed: 96 Pts.
Dragon Ogres destroyed: 231 Pts.
Two Quadrants Captured: 200 Pts.

what an insane game!! Sounds legendary, really!

I'll do a detailed analysis in a little bit as life is hectic right now, but I will definitely point out that I'm fairly positive you can't Stand And Shoot to the rear.

That was something we tried looking up, and couldn't find it. We looked under Charge Responses on Pg 45 and that sent us to Stand and Shoot on Pg 61 but nothing mentioned that the chargers needed to be coming from the front. All we could find was that I needed to be coming from more than half my charge distance away, and I was. He had already passed his Fear test. Without being able to find any good reason why it shouldn't be allowed, I said go for it. The argument was that they must have known they were being charged if they were allowed to make a hold reaction or a flee reaction and if they had to take a fear test. After passing that, it seemed logical that they would continue to know someone was coming and since it was from farther than 10"... *sigh*

Do you know what page it's on so I can kick myself for not lawyering properly?

The other questions we were going to ask about are concerning Victory Points: On Pg 198 of the BRB it says you get VP credit for each enemy unit reduced to half its starting models, and for Independent models (characters, monsters, chariots) reduced to below half its original wounds.

First of all, we have been giving half credit on a 2-Wound character (AKA all Characters in sub 2k Point games) if you get 1 Wound on him. Are we crazy? Is this changed to "below or equal to" in an FAQ somewhere? Otherwise you would never get half credit on someone's General in a 1500 Point Game

Second, we just want to clarify that Dragon Ogres and units of Tomb Kings Light Chariots would be scored as Units, and not scored as Units-Of-Independent-Monsters, right?


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.... AND I just saw on page 75 that my Knights should have pursued right through his Longbeards in the Top of the 2nd, and that mistake truly may have cost me the game. I could have been behind that double charge. Ouch. Definitely feeling pretty foolish on that one.

As long as it attaches...

I see, but the models do get turned around when they Hold, don't they?

If they don't we will change our interpretation and play this way from now on

MattyFenby wrote:
I see, but the models do get turned around when they Hold, don't they?

If they don't we will change our interpretation and play this way from now on

No, it's a rear charge. If you were engaged to the front, would a sudden rear charge suddenly give you two fronts? No? Why would a Panic check be explicitly set for when you get flanked or rear ended while engaged to the front?

And yes, that also means your command and characters during a rear charge sit it out. There's explicit rules spelled out for rearranging them in subsequent turns.

I get that it is a rear charge and that characters do not move within the unit. However, I am 90% sure you still turn the models in the back row around. They DO see the enemy coming and they were not already engaged in CC. Maybe you just dont turn them around until the Close Combat Phase? I'm not finding the page so maybe I just flubbed it entirely? I will update with an edit:page number if i can find the evidence i am thinking of.

If we change how we do this, in addition to S&S wounds not counting towards CR which we learned a few months ago, really waters down the power of Stand & Shoot vs how we thought it worked last year.

Either way thanks for helping to audit the game because thats exactly what we need to get closer to that mythical perfect mistake free game.

Stand and Shoot is worthwhile as it's a chance to cost the chargers a rank and potentially outnumber, not to mention the potential to panic a unit if it takes enough damage. If memory serves, since my niece still has my rulebook, there are specific mentions of how a panic can cause the charge to fail.

Oh yes, they absolutely can cause the charge to fail. That's on page 53 of the BigRedBook. Wouldn't have in this situation because the Furies are Immune to Psych but we've seen it happen in the past year for sure. Definitely still worth using S&S in its time and place, but its just interesting that we accidentally buffed it twice with rules errors in our last year of gaming. Coming into the new season it's just not going to be quite as good as we thought it was before.

SO on page 68 of the BigRedBook it says you can temporarily turn models to show they are fighting to the side or rear. You *may* turn them just to make sure you dont forget to take your attacks or accidentally think they are fleeing or something I guess. But this happens in the Close Combat Phase, NOT in the Movement Phase when "Move Chargers" is occurring. So it looks like this combined with the page you shared explicitly laying out the rules for who can shoot and LOS (page 59) would be hard evidence to shut down any Stand & Shoot reactions to the rear from now on.


With that settled and me now kicking myself bad for making 2 rules errors (pages 68 and 75 are burned into my brain now. I guess that's learning the hard way) that could have helped me get that win, I just have the one question on Victory Points left.

Half credit on 2-Wound Heroes (aka most Hero-level Characters). Is it possible? Explicit wording on pg 198 looks like no on first glance to me but we have always played that 1 Wound = half credit. Anyone have thoughts/opinions/a different page of clarification text buried somewhere?

I always played characters as an all or nothing unless they have a clearly separate monster mount. But explicitly by the rule you quoted the only way to get a two wound character BELOW half is to kill them.