Switch Theme:

Inter-Caste Offspring Among Tau?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I know that Tau society forbids *ahem* intimate relationships between members of different castes, but do we know if different castes are capable of producing offspring together? And if so, what the resulting children look like? We know that earth caste are basically always stocky, fire caste are tall and muscular, air caste are tall and willowy, and water caste are... none of the above. But what would the offpsring of a fire and air caste look like? Or earth and ethereal?

Given that tau are apparently capable of absurdly rapid evolution if not some sort of more overt genetic adaptation (see: air caste formerly having wings), I sort of wonder if combining the genetics of multiple castes might have a dramatic impact on the offspring's anatomy.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





I doubt they've genetically diverged enough to have speciated and become reproductively incompatible.

But they have definitely diverged phenotypically, although so have humans if you look at geographical morphological groups on earth.

I would say they are probably similar to the neanderthal/denisovian/human speciations.

Remembering that horses and donkeys / lions and tigers are capable of breeding to produce infertile offspring and they are species separated by millions of years of divergence.

If tam psychology is similar to human, then it's a brain plasticity rather than genetic thing. which means upbringing is more important.

So tau behaviour would not be innate.

Physiology though would definitely be different.

   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






The Air Caste has changed radically (see below). However, like Hellebore, I doubt they've speciated. Humans have Voidborn and it is implied they are still human, and so able to breed with non-Voidborn.
Air Caste
The Air Caste lives almost entirely off-world, and due to their constant exposure to zero and low-gravity environments, they have developed long, slender limbs and hollow bones.

This results in their possessing a skeletal and muscular structure of reduced strength compared to the T'au genetic baseline.

Prior to the unification of the T'au castes, during the time of the Mont'au, the Air Caste were said to possess membranous wings, allowing them to glide on warm air currents. They still possess vestigial remains of these membranes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/21 02:25:51


Works in Progress: Many. Progress, Ha!
My Games Played 
   
Made in gr
Storm Trooper with Maglight





I think it's a stretch to think that Tau have diverged to such a degree that they aren't capable of procreating between castes anymore, considering we were capable of procreating with Neanderthals once.

Inter-caste Tau offspring would probably have similar results to interracial offspring among humans, like how the child of, say, a tall, pale Dutchman and a short, dark-haired Asian will have characteristics of both parents to varying degrees. So I imagine that a mixed Earth/Air caste Tau would be taller and slimmer than a pure-bred Earth caste but stockier than a pure-bred Air caste.

   
Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




I think we could assume that among the various T'au's castes, is happened something similar to what happened among the Pink Iguana and the Yellow Iguana, which live on the Isabela Island in the Galapagos: they could interbreed without problems, but they don't because their chemical signature is so different that prevent this event.

Chemical signatures of femoral pore secretions in two syntopic but reproductively isolated species of Galápagos land iguanas

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/21 10:39:20


The answer is inside you; but it is wrong. 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Like Hellebore says, it would probably be a zonky/liger situation, where they could breed but might result in genetic issues.
   
Made in us
Stubborn Hammerer





Sweden

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
I think we could assume that among the various T'au's castes, is happened something similar to what happened among the Pink Iguana and the Yellow Iguana, which live on the Isabela Island in the Galapagos: they could interbreed without problems, but they don't because their chemical signature is so different that prevent this event.

Chemical signatures of femoral pore secretions in two syntopic but reproductively isolated species of Galápagos land iguanas


This is an excellent take! I'll buy into it. With ancient and deeply entrenched taboos against intermixing as cultural gravy on top.

Pheromones playing a role also rhymes well with certain Imperial theories as to Ethereal Caste control.

Also, I am certain that Tau prevents rare accidental mixed Caste members from passing their genes on in order to preserve the four distinct Castes, both for reasons of tradition, ideology* and pragmatic maintenance of Caste specialization. Whether it be by a ban on breeding, sterilization or discreet euthanasia. The latter seem very likely, since it is exactly the kind of secret shady dealings we should expect from the Greater Good, and would result in no one ever seeing inter-Caste freaks of nature.

___________
*
Spoiler:
Don't read too much egalitarianism into the Tau Empire; this is more of a contrast thing when compared to the monstrously tyrannical Imperium of Man. Furthermore, Tau have never been Communists, whatever the joke claims. Anyone who thinks they are, have misunderstood the background. And missed that the Tau sport a vividly succesful economy able to both produce advanced weapon systems to feed their aggressive expansion, and provide a high standard of living across the board: Hardly inspired by the Soviet Union, unlike the Imperium's stagnation, brutal police state, Commissars, abysmal living standards and focus on heavy industry over consumer goods, or for that matter Imperial resilience in total war despite great dysfunctionality - all rhyming with the Soviet Union.



Hangman

This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2020/12/21 17:24:24


   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




I could easily see Tau having no particular objection to mixed-caste couples, but having a complete lockdown on breeding, possibly to the point of regulating children by artificial insemination that completely ignores bonded pairs/groups.

And ethereal-run 'education centers' where children are educated and reared in batches... for the greater good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/21 18:02:13


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





I guess I'll be the only one.

Speciation can be complicated to define and use. And it isn't really binary.

5000+ years is a lot of time for sufficient genetic drift to cause issues with reproduction (hormonal/pheromonal incompatibility, physiological incompatibility, genetic incompatibility, social incompatibility, etc.), IF your Empire explicitly practices society- and species-wide eugenics with an EXTREMELY hands-on approach, with very distinct roles envisioned for each separate caste.

Some of those roles may well have been close enough that the diversion isn't as pronounced, while other diversions in role resulted in some pretty substantial extremes in phenotypical (and potentially genetic) structures.

It's entirely possible that some castes can interbreed while others can't, or that some castes can mate with at least some castes, which can then mate with the other castes that the original caste couldn't mate with.

The scale is absurd for natural evolution, don't get me wrong, but there's nothing natural about the control over the species exercised by the Ethereal caste.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





As there's no evidence of the empire controlling internal caste reproduction, the only thing that will change caste genetics is genetic drift.

They don't seem to prevent reproduction by members of a caste for not being caste-y enough.

So the best you have is the genetic diversity found in the castes at the point they were culturally segregated, and then a few thousand years of genetic drift within the castes.

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Unusual Suspect wrote:
5000+ years is a lot of time for sufficient genetic drift to cause issues with reproduction (hormonal/pheromonal incompatibility, physiological incompatibility, genetic incompatibility, social incompatibility, etc.), IF your Empire explicitly practices society- and species-wide eugenics with an EXTREMELY hands-on approach, with very distinct roles envisioned for each separate caste.

Uh, no. 5000 years is barely 1/5 of the time Chinese, Europeans, and Americans were separated on their home continents. Last time I checked, we have no problems reproducing. Hell, Homo Sapiens could reproduce with other Homo species despite hundreds of thousands of years of separation (and likely owes our success outside of Africa to genes we got from them).

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Like Hellebore says, it would probably be a zonky/liger situation, where they could breed but might result in genetic issues.

No. These have millions of years of separation, not to mention being separated by whole continents. If even that vast gulf doesn't stop reproduction, nothing Tau can do naturally will.

And there are issues, yes, but modern medicine could easily solve it. There are fertile mules and ligers, even modern methods of genetic screening could ensure these would be the only embryos selected if we wanted to. Tau wouldn't even need to rely on screening, they could easily fix the problems themselves...
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Based on the hard facts we know about the tau, one of two things is true: they operate under completely different rules of evolution, sociology, etc....or GW wrote some deeply implausible stuff. Given that one of the major races in 40k are sentient humanoid fungi, I'm gonna go the latter.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: