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Hey guys. Im playing with a few friends and we sometimes her confused over the rules.

So im using evil Sunz, Vision in the smoke to, reroll failed hits, and im hitting on a guy that gives a minus to hit aura so I dont hit on 5s but 6s.

He says i dont get to reroll the hit Because the modifier, comes after. So if i make a hit of 5 but need 6 Because of his minus, i cant reroll Because I first hit, but his modifier made me miss so I cant reroll..

Or something i dont know. Is this true? Do i not get my reroll because I hit a guy with a minus modifier?

If thats true its bs

It depends on the exact wording.

If it says “Reroll failed” then he spoke true.
If it says “Reroll any” then he was mistaken.

It doesn't specify failed hits. What were you shooting at?

Beardedragon wrote:
Hey guys. Im playing with a few friends and we sometimes her confused over the rules.

So im using evil Sunz, Vision in the smoke to, reroll failed hits, and im hitting on a guy that gives a minus to hit aura so I dont hit on 5s but 6s.

He says i dont get to reroll the hit Because the modifier, comes after. So if i make a hit of 5 but need 6 Because of his minus, i cant reroll Because I first hit, but his modifier made me miss so I cant reroll..

Or something i dont know. Is this true? Do i not get my reroll because I hit a guy with a minus modifier?

If thats true its bs

Re-rolls are always applied before modifiers.

If a rule says "re-roll failed", then it can only re-roll fails before modifiers. For example, if you can "re-roll failed rolls to hit", have BS5+, and are shooting at -1 to hit, and roll a 5, you can't re-roll it because it's not a fail until after the modifier is applied.

if a rule says "re-roll" without any other restriction, you can re-roll it regardless. For example, if you can "re-roll rolls to hit", have BS5+, and are shooting at -1 to hit, and roll a 5, you can re-roll it.

For what it's worth, "re-roll failed" wording is only in the older codexes, GW seem to have been making re-rolls able to be used regardless of result going forward (I suspect because of this exact issue, can't have SM players being sad they can't use their Re-roll auras!). In your example, Visions in the Smoke simply says "re-roll the hit roll", regardless of failure status.

I'm the last person to defend GW, but not being able to reroll a miss because it 'hit' was ridiculous and got a negative reaction from literally everyone I explained it to, even when I was the one missing out on rerolls.

So if i reroll a failed hit and i have BS5 and i roll 5 and he gives me a minus 1 to hit, i dont get to reroll.


That sounds like a pretty slowed rule if you ask me. a failed hit should be a failed hit.


But since visions just says i CAN reroll hit rolls, then i can do it regardless. Great. thanks

That is correct, because re-rolls are applied before modifiers.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That is correct, because re-rolls are applied before modifiers.

But why tho. that seems fething stupid?

Beardedragon wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That is correct, because re-rolls are applied before modifiers.

But why tho. that seems fething stupid?

So there is a clear order of operations. Rerolls are before modifiers, so you only reroll based on the state of the die roll before the modifier is applied.

But then why not rerolls after modifiers?
I suppose that would run into issues with dice stopping a 1. But then why do dice stop at one? Is it too much for many gamers to use numbers like 0?

exactly.

You didnt move on to the wounding phase, ERGO, you failed your hit roll.

It makes no sense that modifiers are made after the hit roll hits, but fails.

A failed hit roll is a failed hit roll, modifiers should come before, not after.

Beardedragon wrote:
exactly.

You didnt move on to the wounding phase, ERGO, you failed your hit roll.

It makes no sense that modifiers are made after the hit roll hits, but fails.

A failed hit roll is a failed hit roll, modifiers should come before, not after.

If modifiers came first this would also cause unintuitive interactions.

Say you have a BS of 3+ and a +1 to hit. You are in a captain reroll 1s aura. You roll a 1, apply the +1. You now have 2. You can't reroll it because its not a 1.

Either way, odd things happen.

 Stux wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
exactly.

You didnt move on to the wounding phase, ERGO, you failed your hit roll.

It makes no sense that modifiers are made after the hit roll hits, but fails.

A failed hit roll is a failed hit roll, modifiers should come before, not after.

If modifiers came first this would also cause unintuitive interactions.

Say you have a BS of 3+ and a +1 to hit. You are in a captain reroll 1s aura. You roll a 1, apply the +1. You now have 2. You can't reroll it because its not a 1.

Either way, odd things happen.

They've had to change wording on 1s to "natural" now because it causes problems either way round.
For example if you overcharged a plasma gun with a -1 to hit and rolled a 2, your captain couldn't reroll it because it wasn't a 1. But your guy died because it was a 1. Which is equally dumb and un-intuitive.
So they resolved that by stating "natural 1" and that also resolves that example.

Or, as another solution, they could change the wording on how modifiers work. That way instead of bring a direct + or - to the dice roll, the modifiers have the reverse effect on the target number. This is how most people mentally apply it anyway "I need a 4+ to hit, but have a +1, so I need a 3+" as opposed to rolling all the dice and mentally adding 1 to each.
This also solves silliness like having attacks exploding on 5s because you've got a +1, or being unable to use your exploding dice ability because you have a -1, or the plasma guns blowing up on 2s because they're shooting at an aircraft.

Beardedragon wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That is correct, because re-rolls are applied before modifiers.

But why tho. that seems fething stupid?

It was the most elegant solution GW could come up with, at the time. Since the debut of 8th edition, many problems have been found with the system, and moving forward you should expect no rules to specify "failed" rolls - no recent Codex (as of Orks, or later) or Supplement mentions them anymore.