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First, let me assure you this is not a "Marines are OP" thread; this has been discussed extensively before and I don't think anyone's opinion is about to budge one inch on this contentious issue.

I'm talking about the fact that Space Marines are the poster boys featured in all the ads to draw in new players, yet they now have more complex rules than many other factions. They use bolters differently, they have doctrines to keep track of, etc. I am not up to date on their rules, but I am under the impression that their learning curve is rather steep for a new 40k player.

I firmly believe Space Marines should be strong on paper, but ultimately rather straightforward. In order words, high stats but simple rules. E.g., instead of having Shock Assault (+1 attack until end of turn if the unit has charged, been charged or performed a Heroic Intervention), GW should simply add one permanent attack to their profiles and adjust their points cost accordingly. Most of the special rules they do have should be geared towards making them simpler to play: for example, ignoring some circumstantial modifiers, such as the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons.

Having a bunch of complex and overlapping rules should be the domain of xenos and Chaos armies, in order to emphasize their alien and unpredictable character.

.

Hmmm. I agree with you, but I sometimes think that might be my old man brain talking. Kids love complex rules and lots of interlinking systems in my experience, they just hoover all that stuff up.

I don't think they are terribly complicated. They are a very forgiving army, which is why they are a good beginners army.

I think it depends. They aren't THAT bad if you just start by playing a simple list from the main codex. You can get the cards for helping you remember when you get your weapon bonuses, and the rest of it can be learned fairly quickly.

We always just tell new players to try and remember one new thing each game until they get the hang of it. We're also happy to remind them if they forget things. But that's assuming you have a group like ours that is welcoming. Not sure how a different group might shift that.

This seems to be the approach GW are taking nowadays. Personally I much preferred a more streamlined style of rules writing. Given this is the way things are going, though, I think the number of special rules in a SM army isn't any higher or lower than we're likely to see across other armies once they get their 9th edition Codex so relative to the rest of the game they're probably fine.

They have too many codices, that's for sure.

What's "complicated" about:

Turn 1: My lascannons, heavy bolters, and multi-meltas get +1AP

Turns 2 and 3: My bolters, plasma guns, and eradicators get +1AP

Turns 4 and 5: My chainswords, power swords, lighting claws, thunderhammers, and anything else melee get +1AP?

they have a lot of rules, but newer players can still win easily even while forgetting a few of them.

I think it’s not to bad compared to other codecs, not a lot of persisting affects to track. That new DG codex that’s gonna be a lot more complicated From what the previews have shown.

I wouldn't say they have too many rules, and they're far easier to understand/implement than others such as Resurrection Protocols, DotFE and SfD. If I was introducing a new player to the game however, I would probably run a couple of training games without them, then introduce them once he's got the basics.

Yeah, just play without Chapter Boni and doctrines for the first few games. You'll later learn these as well as which stratagems are useful.

-Guardsman- wrote:
First, let me assure you this is not a "Marines are OP" thread; this has been discussed extensively before and I don't think anyone's opinion is about to budge one inch on this contentious issue.

I'm talking about the fact that Space Marines are the poster boys featured in all the ads to draw in new players, yet they now have more complex rules than many other factions. They use bolters differently, they have doctrines to keep track of, etc. I am not up to date on their rules, but I am under the impression that their learning curve is rather steep for a new 40k player.

I firmly believe Space Marines should be strong on paper, but ultimately rather straightforward. In order words, high stats but simple rules. E.g., instead of having Shock Assault (+1 attack until end of turn if the unit has charged, been charged or performed a Heroic Intervention), GW should simply add one permanent attack to their profiles and adjust their points cost accordingly. Most of the special rules they do have should be geared towards making them simpler to play: for example, ignoring some circumstantial modifiers, such as the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons.

Having a bunch of complex and overlapping rules should be the domain of xenos and Chaos armies, in order to emphasize their alien and unpredictable character.

.

From where are you getting the impression that they have a steep learning curve for a new 40K player since you are not up to date on their rules? Is this your opinion or are new players complaining to you about it?

Space Marines are a good army for a new player because they have a fairly limited model count and they are relatively easy to paint. I find they play fairly straight-forwardly. That doesn't mean simple to play. They are just more straight-forward to play than, say, Genestealer Cults.

In general, I don't think Space Marines have too many rules, sepcial or othewise, to be an entry-level army.

First off, a brand-new player is likely going to be directed toward buying Primaris marines. They are the models found on the shelves, in the discount boxes and generally recommended for future-proofing. I really like Primaris space marines, but they are dead easy to play. Primaris basically have huge neon signs telling a player where to go with their target priority. Which is a large chunk of 40k. Realistically, the most difficult thing about Primaris is GW's insistence to not have them directly compete with Firstborn unit roles. So Primaris often have this oblique way of accomplishing the same role as a more traditional Firstborn unit. Most of the time the difference is pretty negligible though.

The special rules aren't that bad either. Doctrines basically cycle themselves now, so they don't require more than remembering they exist. Plus, they don't apply to every unit all game nor are always needed against lower Save targets. Super Doctrines and Chapter Tactics are things a player often builds their army around and make it a point to keep track off (at least I do). Shock Assault activates when something happens making it (to me) seem easier to remember. More so when the marines charge and less when marines are charged to me, but still easy enough to remember. And They Shall Know No Fear, basically never comes up (at least it didn't in 8th to me). Bolter Discipline perhaps being the most difficult in that a player needs to remember its only Bolt weapons not Rapid Fire weapons (I mean it's right in the name).

All of which seems easy to remember, or at least, bring up mid-turn easier than something like Admech Canticles which I haven't played a game where they are remembered to be done at the right time yet. Good thing they have that random roll condition. Space marine special rules for whatever reason seem very easy to remember to me. I don't know if it is due to they mostly tied to certain actions that help trigger reminders or the faction itself is pretty basic overall freeing up more brain processing to keep track of them.

While space marines have added special rules since, let's say 7th/early 8th, I still find the faction to be the easiest to enter into 40k. Marines, and Primaris in particular, are very easy to build/paint/collect and have pretty simple datasheets to boot. The universal special rules still don't make them much more complicated than many other faction's data sheets. And they are applied to all space marines making something once learned applicable all the time if the conditions for their use are met.

-Guardsman- wrote:
First, let me assure you this is not a "Marines are OP" thread; this has been discussed extensively before and I don't think anyone's opinion is about to budge one inch on this contentious issue.

I'm talking about the fact that Space Marines are the poster boys featured in all the ads to draw in new players, yet they now have more complex rules than many other factions. They use bolters differently, they have doctrines to keep track of, etc. I am not up to date on their rules, but I am under the impression that their learning curve is rather steep for a new 40k player.

I firmly believe Space Marines should be strong on paper, but ultimately rather straightforward. In order words, high stats but simple rules. E.g., instead of having Shock Assault (+1 attack until end of turn if the unit has charged, been charged or performed a Heroic Intervention), GW should simply add one permanent attack to their profiles and adjust their points cost accordingly. Most of the special rules they do have should be geared towards making them simpler to play: for example, ignoring some circumstantial modifiers, such as the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons.

Having a bunch of complex and overlapping rules should be the domain of xenos and Chaos armies, in order to emphasize their alien and unpredictable character.

.

Hmmmm..... I wouldn't say marines have too many SRs, per se, but I think they are more SR dependant than they should be. I see marines as relying on their statlines and gear, and tactics over special abilities. Not to bring this topic up again, but the kind you see in AA games.

I don't think so. Their stats are strong enough imo that even if you get some of their rules wrong you'll still be able to do ok in game. In other words, they seem idiot proof.

That is, however, the opinion of someone who doesn't actually play them so take what I said with a grain of salt.

At the moment SM are so strong against other casual lists they should be fine for a new player. I'd agree they have way too many rule though, but in general not specifically for new players. Most Codexes obviously take getting used to but I don't think 40k as such is too complex for new players provided you help them get there. For SM, just get them to focus on either firstborn or Primaris and you already cut the amount of rules and datasheets they have to learn in half. Because that's the real issue with them, they are so bloated 2, maybe 3, smaller codexes could be made from that vast tome.

I think that any brand-new player will face a high-mental load if they play their first game ever at a tournament, regardless of the army they take.

I've walked about a half-dozen players locally through their first game of 9th Edition. I tell them to bring the list they want, and we play a straight-up Open War mission without any Stratagems or Secondary Objectives. We'll use the faction and datasheet rules. Once we get mechanics down we gradually increase the complexity for the next games. I don't see anything inherently complex in Space Marine rules compared to the other factions. "Out of the box", I find Space Marines rely less on Stratagems (they still need them in competitive play for sure) and Psychic Powers than many other lists, but instead rely on their baked-in goodness from their datasheet and faction rules. Comparing new Codexes, the Necron rules are certainly more fiddly.

Stats, specialy melee stats are very over inflated in w40k. A space marine army without good speical rules and just good stats. Would have to have guys running around with str 6 t 6 and 4 wounds each and base 3A.

They certainly have too many datasheets and options which for any newer player is definitely going to be daunting and confusing, but the rules and datasheets themselves are incredibly strong and very straightforward to use. Most armies are basically getting doctrine-style rules, along with multi-bonus chapter tactics so Marines are not unique in this, but they do face fewer challenges in general list building and moment to moment gameplay. Compare the amount of moving parts in a Sisters list, or the restrictions to synergies in a Necron one and Marines are far easier to play.

Marines aren't complicated, they just have access to like all the aspects of the game. The complex thing to keep track of on them these days are what all the different bolt weapons are, the small variance in stats and what they look like.

That part for marines has really gotten out of hand. We went from a few different bolt weapons to I don't even know how many, a lot maybe around 20 or so in marines alone.

Too many rules? I mean, a standard Tac squad only has ATSKNF, Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault, Chapter Tactics, Doctrines and super doctrines. As well as any stratagems, litanies, auras or psychic powers which may affect them. Oh and Combat Squads I suppose.

Does that sound like too much?

 Intruder wrote:
Too many rules? I mean, a standard Tac squad only has ATSKNF, Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault, Chapter Tactics, Doctrines and super doctrines. As well as any stratagems, litanies, auras or psychic powers which may affect them. Oh and Combat Squads I suppose.

Does that sound like too much?

Yes. This beer and pretzels game has gone off the rails with all of these additional layerings of rules, and that's just for one faction. Multiply that for 20+ factions and you end up with an absurd amount of trivial additional rules to be mindful of. Take me back to the days of 4th/5th editions' minimal Universal Special Rules, or even just Index-era 8th . . .

An entry level player doesn't necessarily overcomplicate their army to begin with. They would start with a generic marine list, then eventually branch out to more specialized areas.

I say faulty premise. There are no entry-level 40K armies.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
What's "complicated" about:

Turn 1: My lascannons, heavy bolters, and multi-meltas get +1AP

Turns 2 and 3: My bolters, plasma guns, and eradicators get +1AP

Turns 4 and 5: My chainswords, power swords, lighting claws, thunderhammers, and anything else melee get +1AP?

Not only that. My SW also have +1 to hit and +1A if charge, charged, heroic intervention and 6s deal two hits when the assault doctrine is active. There's also the morale thing that all SM have. Those are on top of more selected special rules typical of specific units; it's actually a lot to remember.

 Gnarlly wrote:

 Intruder wrote:
Too many rules? I mean, a standard Tac squad only has ATSKNF, Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault, Chapter Tactics, Doctrines and super doctrines. As well as any stratagems, litanies, auras or psychic powers which may affect them. Oh and Combat Squads I suppose.

Does that sound like too much?

Yes. This beer and pretzels game has gone off the rails with all of these additional layerings of rules, and that's just for one faction. Multiply that for 20+ factions and you end up with an absurd amount of trivial additional rules to be mindful of. Take me back to the days of 4th/5th editions' minimal Universal Special Rules, or even just Index-era 8th . . .

I'd say the amount of special rules is exactly WHY 40K is a beer and pretzels game for me. 40K is not a tight ruleset that's about tough tactical choices and careful decisions every turn, instead it's a big roleplaying game that is filled with loads of fluff driven special rules. A typical army presentation of 40K has to sound like your munchkin at level 9.

SM is by far the most straight forward as far as rules go IMO.

SM used to be the simplest faction to play. Not anymore. Imo Nids are much more straight forward in terms of rules, for example.

Based on the new codex in a vacuum? I would say yes, but big picture this seems like "the new normal" - if a player can't wrap their heads around Space Marines, they won't be able to wrap their heads around anything else either.

I'd say the amount of special rules is exactly WHY 40K is a beer and pretzels game for me. 40K is not a tight ruleset that's about tough tactical choices and careful decisions every turn, instead it's a big roleplaying game that is filled with loads of fluff driven special rules. A typical army presentation of 40K has to sound like your munchkin at level 9.

Beer and pretzels implies something so simple that you can do it while drunk and engaging in friendly banter about sports or work or whatever else, i.e. it requires about the same level of brainpower as sitting in a bar or pub enjoying a pint while chatting with a friend. All the special rules in 40k, by definition, preclude it from being a beer and pretzels game, because its impossible to remember them all and you need to constantly refer to various written materials to work out gameplay scenarios, etc.

40k exists almost in its own category where its not a beer and pretzels game but it lacks the mechanical tightness and design elegance needed for it to be a "hardcore" game.

As a relatively new player (started in 8th), in my opinion complex rules are not fun for a noob if winning or losing depends on getting them all right, like 8th Tau, but they are fun if they a just add more options to an army with a pretty straightforward playstyle, like SM.