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I feel as tho one way to help fix the tank commander/leman russ problems is not only to fix their points a little, but another great fix would be to make it so guard units with voice of command cannot receive orders, could also add another rule where you can only take one commander per 2 regular units, like 1 company commander per every 2 infantry squads, or 1 tank commander per every 2 regular leman russes, ugh I really want to see a new imperial guard codex soon, but who knows how long it will take

I was under the impression that the problem with TCs/LRs was that they died too fast.

Well im talking about the problem of bringing only tank commanders and no leman russes, but yes a buff would help

As for the tank commander prevalence over the regular LRBT, they may adjust the prices even more than the +5/-5 points we have seen in the munitorum field manual 2021.
Or simply ditch the tank commander entry from HQ's, and make it an upgrade of one tank in a squadron of 2-3 models, in heavy support (where it belongs).
Doing so, there would not be more tank commanders than regular LRBT.

Astra Militarum is a shooting army of mostly BS 4+ models, it should stay that way.
Instead of granting the tank commander a bonus BS, they should give him a tank ace trait, and also the ability to transmit orders, by a freaking RADIO VOX (like every tank since 2nd world war). Is that too difficult as a rule to write for GW ? Infantry has access to radio vox for increasing orders range. Why LRBT don't have this rule as standard? The radio vox is in every kit of leman russ ! Why the hell tank commanders need to baby sit regulars by staying 6" of them to transmit orders ???



Apart from that, the LRBT chassis itself is not durable enough...

My solution for my homebrew rewrite was to make the Tank Commander a squad upgrade that required a squad of three to unlock rather than a separate HQ choice.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
My solution for my homebrew rewrite was to make the Tank Commander a squad upgrade that required a squad of three to unlock rather than a separate HQ choice.

This is a great idea.

My thought was they should just put TC back at 4+ to remove the incentive to spam them.

Not sure I like the idea of nerfing a mediocre unit (Tank Commanders) to make a bad unit (Leman Russes) more viable. I think your proposed change of requiring a squadron of 3 Leman Russes with one being upgraded to a TC will result in people taking the same number of standard Russes they're taking right now. That is to say zero.

sniff sniff, smells like ruffled MEQ jimmies in here.

Pretty use the new AM codex will bring limitiations, just like one SM detachment cant have more than one captain and two lieutenants. I expect one tank commander per detachment.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
Not sure I like the idea of nerfing a mediocre unit (Tank Commanders) to make a bad unit (Leman Russes) more viable. I think your proposed change of requiring a squadron of 3 Leman Russes with one being upgraded to a TC will result in people taking the same number of standard Russes they're taking right now. That is to say zero.

Oh, absolutely, it's a fluff/org change that I implemented along with oldhammer core rules and massively revised stats/weapons, implementing it into the 8e Guard book without any other changes wouldn't work for a long, long litany of reasons.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Astra Militarum is a shooting army of mostly BS 3+ models, it should stay that way.

...tell me, have you looked at the Imperial Guard book recently? This statement makes me think the answer is a resounding "No."

Make the Tank commander a 0-1 option? In my opinion this is something that should have never been done away with with a host of options.

It's quite likely Tank Commanders will be 1 max per detachment, which has been a common theme among armies released so far.
I don't expect revolutionary changes on anything.
I would love them to have inbuilt voxes though, or at least the optional upgrade. Or just increase tank-order's range to represent an in-built vox.

If we're wish listing radical changes though;
I'd like Chimera command vehicles, able to issue two orders a turn like a Company Commander. (With a vox!)
Allowing Tank Commanders to be relegated to Elites or Heavy Support as effectively armoured Platoon Commanders

 Dysartes wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Astra Militarum is a shooting army of mostly BS 3+ models, it should stay that way.

...tell me, have you looked at the Imperial Guard book recently? This statement makes me think the answer is a resounding "No."

A typo, well, I still have BS=3 in the head from the previous editions. Corrected to BS 4+.

 p5freak wrote:
Pretty use the new AM codex will bring limitiations, just like one SM detachment cant have more than one captain and two lieutenants. I expect one tank commander per detachment.

You don't even need something like that. It just needs to not allow for "Master of Command" to be taken by a Tank Commander if it's such a big issue(spoiler: it's not).

There really aren't any "power" HQ choices in the Guard book as much as people like to complain about it. Orders are a key mechanic, move on.

True,we don't need this harsh of a limitation. But if you look at what has been done to other codices, it is the way GW forces us in list building. It has appeared since the Tau codex (Shas'O commanders), and currently since 9th dropped, it is a trend. For Astra Militarum, I'm expecting 1 max tank commander per detachment, as well as 1 max company commander.

For the Leman russ, apart from a malfunctioning order system, it is not a durable enough tank. I had run some math back in the early 8th edition days, and was disappointed by the resilience of LRBT against the anti-tank weapons available at that time. Coming from 3 HP armour 14 (equivalent of T:10) in 6th-7th editions, to toughness 8 / 12 W save 3+ was in fact not a good deal, if you consider strong AP, multi-damage weapons. The anti-tank firepower has gone up tremendously since then.

Let's face it, LRBT resilience is lacklustre, especially if you compare it to other factions main battle vehicles / monsters. And we don't even have it as a cheap main battle tank to compensate. At the same time, Astra Militarum being the bog standard army, I don't want a special, tedious (and unfair) mechanism like -1 damage, 5+++ FNP from other codices. But upgrading to 14 HP or 2+ save would be nice.

There is literally no other restriction they can put on us that will not screw the army up. Tau Commanders got a restriction because people were taking them instead of Crisis Suits, not because they were the most cost effective HQ. People still took Fireblades and Ethereals.

With Guard? That is not the case. You restrict Company Commanders and Tank Commanders--you screw the entire army up.
Max Company Commander? Who the hell else are you going to take for an infantry based Guard army? Lord Commissars? A far rarer(lorewise) character who cannot issue Orders outside of a Warlord Trait instead of a Company or Tank Commander(who only seemingly is problematic with Voice of Command)?
Primaris Psykers? Another non-Voice of Command character?
Oh, maybe a Tempestor Prime--a character that literally cannot issue orders to Regimental units and is an HQ choice that has a single Order to issue per turn unless you remove their ranged weapon for a stick that makes them better at shouting?

Any changes necessitate an entirely new overhaul to the Guard book. End of story. Discussing changes is pointless at this juncture.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
Not sure I like the idea of nerfing a mediocre unit (Tank Commanders) to make a bad unit (Leman Russes) more viable. I think your proposed change of requiring a squadron of 3 Leman Russes with one being upgraded to a TC will result in people taking the same number of standard Russes they're taking right now. That is to say zero.

There are a variety of ways to make Russes more attractive, but the ongoing problem with Russes vs TCs- where they both do the exact same thing, so at any given time one or the other is a better buy- can only be resolved by differentiating their roles a bit. Making TCs only buff other tanks is one way to do it, regardless of what else is done to the TC/LR profile to jazz it up.

I think we can look at the 3 codexes we have for 9th and draw some ideas together of what MAY come about:

1 - Army-leading models are being restricted in number (SM Captains/DG Lords) This will probably happen for Company/Tank Commanders in some way

2 - Big stuff that died too early has been made more durable (Morty/dreads) This will probably happen for superheavies (like Morty they rarely got taken) and tanks (maybe T increase on LR?)

3 - GW wants your army composition to look like they think it should (poxwalker/cultist restrictions / SM scouts to elite slot) This could mean LR get rules that encourage them to be taken more, rather than just a points incentive...would also mean they might try to encourage endless Idiots-with-flashlights on the table too...

Kanluwen, I'm not saying that I want this type of limitations. Or that I would even welcome this type of rules. I'm just saying that it is a trend which may probably affect us, in line with what has been done to some other recent codices.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
Not sure I like the idea of nerfing a mediocre unit (Tank Commanders) to make a bad unit (Leman Russes) more viable. I think your proposed change of requiring a squadron of 3 Leman Russes with one being upgraded to a TC will result in people taking the same number of standard Russes they're taking right now. That is to say zero.

*Buzz*, the right answer.

If people really want to see regular Russ then they need to be better - i.e. a bit cheaper. You could nerf the Tank Commander into the ground and its not going to make people take something which they judge to be not worth its points - or, if they do because you've nerfed literally everything else, the faction as a whole is just going to suck.

bat702 wrote:I feel as tho one way to help fix the tank commander/leman russ problems is not only to fix their points a little

Tyel wrote:If people really want to see regular Russ then they need to be better - i.e. a bit cheaper.

OP's suggestions are a means to differentiate regular Russes from TCs in addition to points changes, because the role overlap between Russes and TCs cannot be fixed with points alone, so saying this wouldn't work because Russes are too expensive is a rather irrelevant reply.

bat702 wrote:
I feel as tho one way to help fix the tank commander/leman russ problems is not only to fix their points a little, but another great fix would be to make it so guard units with voice of command cannot receive orders, could also add another rule where you can only take one commander per 2 regular units, like 1 company commander per every 2 infantry squads, or 1 tank commander per every 2 regular leman russes, ugh I really want to see a new imperial guard codex soon, but who knows how long it will take

Nothing you list is a fix.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dai wrote:
Make the Tank commander a 0-1 option? In my opinion this is something that should have never been done away with with a host of options.

Guard shouldn't have nice things?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 catbarf wrote:

bat702 wrote:I feel as tho one way to help fix the tank commander/leman russ problems is not only to fix their points a little

Tyel wrote:If people really want to see regular Russ then they need to be better - i.e. a bit cheaper.

OP's suggestions are a means to differentiate regular Russes from TCs in addition to points changes, because the role overlap between Russes and TCs cannot be fixed with points alone, so saying this wouldn't work because Russes are too expensive is a rather irrelevant reply.

Why, any change that isn't a point change will feth up both tanks and make them both worse in the end.

Guard shouldn't have nice things?

Not until they complete their apology tour for early 8th Conscripts issues

Sadly though, I can definitely see GW adding the 1 TC per detachment limitation since that's what they've done for other armies so far. I just hope they get better in exchange for that, because as one poster pointed out - People are taking TCs because of how BAD Russes are. I hope GW recognizes that and helps out the humble Russ a bit more.

Tycho wrote:

Guard shouldn't have nice things?

Not until they complete their apology tour for early 8th Conscripts issues

Sadly though, I can definitely see GW adding the 1 TC per detachment limitation since that's what they've done for other armies so far. I just hope they get better in exchange for that, because as one poster pointed out - People are taking TCs because of how BAD Russes are. I hope GW recognizes that and helps out the humble Russ a bit more.

O you mean something lasted less than a month?

O you mean something lasted less than a month?

Sorry - I was making a joke. Didn't mean imply they actually NEEDED a nerf. lol

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Kanluwen, I'm not saying that I want this type of limitations. Or that I would even welcome this type of rules. I'm just saying that it is a trend which may probably affect us, in line with what has been done to some other recent codices.

Bluntly?

Looking at "other recent codices" is pointless. Characters that give a flat aura bonus to all keyworded units are not the same as a character with a once per turn single unit targeted bonus that can only affect a specific unit(Tank Commanders), a twice per turn single unit targeted bonus(Company Commanders and Platoon Commanders can do the same thing once) that can only affect (a) <Regiment> (b) Infantry classified units and locks them out from receiving an additional bonus the same way, or a once upgradable to twice(Tempestor Prime) per turn single unit targeted bonus that does the same thing for Militarum Tempestus units.

If we're going to see any kind of restrictions, I can almost guarantee that it will be on things like Priests.

Tycho wrote:

Guard shouldn't have nice things?

Not until they complete their apology tour for early 8th Conscripts issues

Sadly though, I can definitely see GW adding the 1 TC per detachment limitation since that's what they've done for other armies so far. I just hope they get better in exchange for that, because as one poster pointed out - People are taking TCs because of how BAD Russes are. I hope GW recognizes that and helps out the humble Russ a bit more.

This.
The Tank Commanders issue for Guard is the same as the Commanders one for Tau. When HQ options are more efficient than the corresponding unit (Leman Russes, XV8 Crisis suits), HQs get spammed.
GW introduced the max 1 Commander per detachment limitation during early 8th for Tau, now they're expanding it to every codex. Then they gave Farsight Enclaves an expensive way to upgrade regular XV8 Crisis suits (veteran cadre stratagem) in psychic awakening.
The only hope for Guard and Tau is to receive something similar in the new codices, alongside sensible point costs.

Tycho wrote:

O you mean something lasted less than a month?

Sorry - I was making a joke. Didn't mean imply they actually NEEDED a nerf. lol

It's fine, just that whenever these threads pop up it always feels like people are nerfing stuff and not knowing how the army works ad holding things that were by far not the strongest in the meta of the time but held like a gun behind the back to regular guard players and not soup players.

Limitations to Guard in what they can bring will only prove to be a further nerf to an army that doesn't need nerfs and needs buffs desperately.

Leman Russes should be awesome. Tank commanders should be better with appropriate points. Happy with a limitation to tank commanders under these circumstances, just for those of us who get a bit ocd when confronted with "unfluffy" armies?