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Tycho wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It looks like Roundtree will be stepping down this year so we'll be at the whims of whomever is appointed. I just hope the board has a good amount of sense on the matter.

Ack! I hadn't caught that. Do we know why? That seriously bums me out. I had given up the game in 7th. Came back in 8th when I saw all the positive changes he had fostered in the company as a whole. He will be a tough act to follow. Especially given how quickly he got things turned around.

He never mentioned an implicit cause. I think he's just ready to retire.

Interesting. He did a good job I reckon. I'm sure the shareholders agree.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tycho wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It looks like Roundtree will be stepping down this year so we'll be at the whims of whomever is appointed. I just hope the board has a good amount of sense on the matter.

Ack! I hadn't caught that. Do we know why? That seriously bums me out. I had given up the game in 7th. Came back in 8th when I saw all the positive changes he had fostered in the company as a whole. He will be a tough act to follow. Especially given how quickly he got things turned around.

He never mentioned an implicit cause. I think he's just ready to retire.

What's the source on that, Daed? Not doubting, I just can't find anything online unless it's buried in an earnings report that Google isn't parsing.

Wayniac wrote:
GW has always focused on short term gains. The problem is there's enough "whales" who don't care and still throw money at GW no matter what. So as long as they remain profitable (or get more profitable despite not doing much different) they have no reason to change since it's working.

I disagree. It's not that simple. you are too bitter about things Wayne.Theres a lot of good stuff that a lot of folks are enjoying that I think you either can't see, refuse to see or twist it round trying to turn it bad. And i don't mean this badly of you. Take it from someone who has been in the same place as you are now - I genuinely think you need to take a step away from this hobby for a while.

Kirby was the whale chaser.

Roundtree was the change.

And sure, there's whales, and folks who buy lead mountains and never paint anything, let alone put them together. I'd lay more than a few pennies their numbers are dwarved by those of excited hobbyists. There's plenty folks that came back, because gw game them what they wanted in terms of the game on the table, plenty new folks started because gw finally got it right with the getting started 'ahem, value' boxes, gw finally got it right with a wide range of games, rather than a focus on the big two exclusively. We have necromunda, titanicus, kill team, blood bowl, warcry, etc. They have a whole ecosystem now of different games catering to different tastes. gw finally keep people engaged with a decent media approach, collectors are kept on side because frankly, gw's models have never been better, black library and licenced deals are a licence to print money. Hell, they have a damned tv show coming! I've been a follower of warhammer for 20 years. Over half my life. I could never conceive of a time like this. Basically warhammer has never been this popular. You can't move for people in most of the shops. That's more than 'hur dur whales'. That's a lot of excitement and a lot of engagement from a lot of people.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
What's the source on that, Daed? Not doubting, I just can't find anything online unless it's buried in an earnings report that Google isn't parsing.

+

In my statement last year I said that I expected my successor as non-executive chairman of Games Workshop to be appointed from within this group of talented individuals ‘within the next few years’. This timetable continues: I will stand down from the board of Games Workshop (at the latest) at our 2021 AGM, when the board (excluding me) has decided upon my replacement.

https://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/2019-20-Annual-Report-FINAL-with-cover.pdf

Their Scrooge McDuck money bin that they have been swimming in for years and that continues to grow seems to tell me that they aren't damaging anything but their customers' wallets.

Deadnight wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
GW has always focused on short term gains. The problem is there's enough "whales" who don't care and still throw money at GW no matter what. So as long as they remain profitable (or get more profitable despite not doing much different) they have no reason to change since it's working.

I disagree. It's not that simple. you are too bitter about things Wayne.Theres a lot of good stuff that a lot of folks are enjoying that I think you either can't see, refuse to see or twist it round trying to turn it bad. And i don't mean this badly of you. Take it from someone who has been in the same place as you are now - I genuinely think you need to take a step away from this hobby for a while.

Kirby was the whale chaser.

Roundtree was the change.

And sure, there's whales, and folks who buy lead mountains and never paint anything, let alone put them together. I'd lay more than a few pennies their numbers are dwarved by those of excited hobbyists. There's plenty folks that came back, because gw game them what they wanted in terms of the game on the table, plenty new folks started because gw finally got it right with the getting started 'ahem, value' boxes, gw finally got it right with a wide range of games, rather than a focus on the big two exclusively. We have necromunda, titanicus, kill team, blood bowl, warcry, etc. They have a whole ecosystem now of different games catering to different tastes. gw finally keep people engaged with a decent media approach, collectors are kept on side because frankly, gw's models have never been better, black library and licenced deals are a licence to print money. Hell, they have a damned tv show coming! I've been a follower of warhammer for 20 years. Over half my life. I could never conceive of a time like this. Basically warhammer has never been this popular. You can't move for people in most of the shops. That's more than 'hur dur whales'. That's a lot of excitement and a lot of engagement from a lot of people.

Why does being a whale mean you don't paint?

Those legions of excited hobbyists are the reason you get wave after wave of marines, shallow rules, bad art, fluff, silly miniature designs, and really the slow degradation of everything that was good about the game imo. Not a single thing you've listed is necessarily good; star wars has all of that x100 and it's hot garbage. If you removed all of the buzzwords from your post it would be almost blank. Consider reading this 40k https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths.

 Irkjoe wrote:

Why does being a whale mean you don't paint?

.

It doesn't?

'And sure, there's whales, and folks who buy lead mountains and never paint anything, let alone put them together'

And I also said it because I know folks that buy lots of stuff and never paint it or even put it together...

shrug, dunno what to say man.

 Irkjoe wrote:

Those legions of excited hobbyists are the reason you get wave after wave of marines, shallow rules, bad art, fluff, silly miniature designs, and really the slow degradation of everything that was good about the game imo. Not a single thing you've listed is necessarily good; star wars has all of that x100 and it's hot garbage. If you removed all of the buzzwords from your post it would be almost blank. Consider reading this 40k https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths.

It doesn't nrcessarily make it bad though, either. The 40k I fell in love with back in third was an abomination to many of those who went before me and played 2nd. All those things you say about the current edition were said about the edition I played when I got started. Were they right? Yes. Was I right to like what I liked and what they casually dismissed? Also yes. Current era folks who are into a game that is radically different from the game I enjoyed? Theyre also right. Its simply the same old cycle simply repeating.

But Fair is fair. Youre entitled to your view joe. I don't share all of it mind, especially the art or the 'silly miniature designs' - I love most of the primaris, warcry and newcromunda range. Thay said I am not a star wars fan - I have zero time for it whatsoever, so ill agree with you there. That whole ip could get sucked into a black hole and my heart wouldn't miss a beat.

But I don't think I was commenting on whether these things were good or bad, just that they were, and they've drawn a lot of people into the gw sphere. From gw's pov it's a win. There's reasons people have come back, including myself. It's really not a cool thing to try and devalue others enjoyment or reasons, it's not necessarily badwrongfun. I'll respect your stance, please show the same consideration.

And by the way, your link.doesnt work.

Cheers!

Deadnight wrote:


Fair. Youre entitled to your view joe. I don't share all of it mind, especially the art or the 'silly miniature designs' - I love most of the primaris, warcry and newcromunda range. Thay said I am not a star wars fan - I have zero time for it whatsoever, so ill agree with you there. That whole ip could get sucked into a black hole and my heart wouldn't miss a beat.

But I don't think I was commenting on whether these things were good or bad, just that they were, and they've drawn a lot of people into the gw sphere. From gw's pov it's a win. There's reasons people have come back, including myself. It's really not a cool thing to try and devalue others enjoyment or reasons, it's not necessarily badwrongfun. I'll respect your stance, please show the same consideration.

And by the way, your link.doesnt work.

Cheers!

Kudos for a really level headed post.

So to pretend like GW hobbyists are mindless drones unable to discern any reality is frankly quite insulting.

Mindless? hardly, more like addicted.

I play with the GW simps who cannot/will not stop buying new GW product even though they consistently complain about the prices and rules writing BECAUSE 40K is the game they can find the most number of people to play with.

And this is after they have played other games i have taught them, that they agree are better games.

So it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy=

.i'm not going to invest in or promote another game because there are not enough players like there are for GW games.
.without support and promotion the player base never significantly grows for non GW games.

Also, I followed up on the linked article (link doesn't work, but Google does) and it's drivel.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
What's the source on that, Daed? Not doubting, I just can't find anything online unless it's buried in an earnings report that Google isn't parsing.

+

In my statement last year I said that I expected my successor as non-executive chairman of Games Workshop to be appointed from within this group of talented individuals ‘within the next few years’. This timetable continues: I will stand down from the board of Games Workshop (at the latest) at our 2021 AGM, when the board (excluding me) has decided upon my replacement.

https://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/2019-20-Annual-Report-FINAL-with-cover.pdf

That is Nick Donaldson, Non-executive chairman, speaking. Rountree is CEO.

 alextroy wrote:
That is Nick Donaldson, Non-executive chairman, speaking. Rountree is CEO.

Oh snap. My b. That's a relief.

Quasistellar wrote:
Their Scrooge McDuck money bin that they have been swimming in for years and that continues to grow seems to tell me that they aren't damaging anything but their customers' wallets.

Honestly I wish they would come for my wallet :( nothing to buy makes me sad.

But, it can all be damaging and still be profitable, so many people ignore that.
Space marines sell, I don’t think that can be disputed. But the damage to other parts of the brand of 40k could be damaged beyond repair as well, with factions like eldar and tau. If players are leaving then even if new releases are put out, they may not have the players to support them without more risk.
This could be all why they are fine as a company, but throwing away both money and the community they do really rely on.

It’s why so many big companies can be fine, until they are not.
GW is already branching away from 40k soo much, and just from the support it gets, I would even think Age of sigma is considered more healthy a product line at GW at this point potentially.

No one dies until they do. Nothing goes bad until it does. Does GW strategy seem stupid ? Yes. Is it hurting them in near term, no. Will it but them in the butt eventually, I think so.

However until it actually is sinking them, they won't care and at the point it does it could be a combination of things. This kind of hobby is very niche and needs time, patience some skill and lots of space. It won't last forever and with the prices I doubt they'll see replacements when all of us start falling away.

Once that happens however, it may then be too late with too few people left to care.

I doubt GW will die all the way though. Their IP at this point is pretty strong and if they keep mainstreaming they will probably live on in other forms for quite a long time, like SEGA from video games. Not dead, just a mere shell of what it once was.

Though that is all still a ways off, decades at least I'd say, but ya never know. Nothing lasts forever, not even cold November rain.

I'm of the thinking that the future of the hobby surely lies in younger players, and from what I can tell there aren't anywhere near as many as there used to be. I suspect nearly everyone talking on this forum (a certain type of person admittedly) is probably aged over 20, most over 30 and a fair few like myself over 40. And this is a trend I see at GW stores, hobby events, heck even youtube channels. And like Hornby or Airfix certain things go out of fashion, there'll be some younger players trickling through, but if the those younger players keep decreasing in numbers then the hobby will surely dwindle.
Are GW doing enough to entice younger players? Or are younger players not coming through despite what GW does?
This is only my opinion based on an admittedly limited view of the gaming community.

What you tend to see is kids getting into it as teenagers, then life/school/hormones and girls (or boys...) catching their attention and 30k becomes something they used to do.

Then in their mid 20s they rediscover the joy and get back into the hobby, this time with more experience,patience and skill and of course, with jobs instead of the bank of mum and dad, so they have the disposable income to engage.
.

It's a minority that stick with it all the way through their lives. And that's OK.

And sure, things go out of fashion, but for the same reason as live plays and theatre survive in the era of billion pound movies, dvds, streaming, cinema etc, table top wargames will.always survive. Even if it's one person in a thousand, there's a market for this kind of thing.

My experience as a teacher is that there are always kids who are interested in the hobby. There are always a bunch who think the minis and the game are about the coolest thing they have ever seen.

I will say that outside of rich kids though price is a major consideration. A lot of them are just going to get a start collecting box and call it a day. And the minis are less kid friendly than they used to be, quite hard to put together in a lot of cases.

I try to introduce them to more affordable options as well, because I feel bad otherwise, but kids also are very status conscious and they want to have "the best" brand so they rarely want to do stuff outside of GW. Sometimes a kid will really like the look of some non-GW stuff, but they want the "best" stuff in case others look down on them often.

But I think a lot of kids are playing with a group of friends after school or whatever and we never see them at clubs and so on until they are older.

 Da Boss wrote:
But I think a lot of kids are playing with a group of friends after school or whatever and we never see them at clubs and so on until they are older.

I'm collecting since 1999 when I picked up a 2nd edition Khorne Berserker box as my first kit ever. To this day I never played in a shop. When we were kids and teenagers, our group consisting of 6 people always played in my parent's basement on Friday nights.

I think there are more collectors and players than we perceive there are.

I think there where you play depends a lot on where you live. In countries with a shortage of places to live since WWI, you can't really expect most people to play at homes.

While I can imagine that americans, with their gignatic homes, could probably pull it off.

There is a huge turn over of player in w40k. There is a stable group of people in their late 20s and mid 30s playing since the 2000s, and bunch of 13-15y olds, who play for a year or maybe a bit longer. Some don't even get to collect a full army, because the army gets nerfed and no longer fun to play or made illegal. Making regular space marines the safe option for new players.

Yeah if someone was getting into 40K and liked space marines at all I would encourage them to try them out over other factions since they are likelier to have a better time with marines and be treated much better as customers.

 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah if someone was getting into 40K and liked space marines at all I would encourage them to try them out over other factions since they are likelier to have a better time with marines and be treated much better as customers.

We have lost so many players to, best to wait to see what they do with other factions. Most of the sisters players I have play with never come back and didn’t even know there was new sisters miniatures :(
And it seems they are selling great from what I keep reading about them.

One thing for me is that GW’s greatest asset is the army of loyal fans who get their younger brothers and cousins and friends into the hobby because they are cool. I wonder if GW isn’t shooting itself in the foot by alienating these peeps with e.g. Ao$, restartes, uneven support for older factions e.g. eldar, GK/witchunters...

I'm a bit worried to see some 100+ bucks units representing one 10th of our armies crop up and book churning shenanigans that are, imho, bad practices (why did they offer a "supplement" that was essential to the game, on release date ?) as it might lead to newer players not willing to invest.

BUT, GW proved they just have to reset everything by burning it to the ground and then providing minimal support until they figure out what to do (it's a method spelled AOS), to get back on track.

As long as they provide "new stuff", there will be enough people willing to get it. Not that these people are right or wrong, they can't be as it is a matter of taste and personal value, just that they are now popular enough to live on the hype generated by newer products.

So I don't think they are really hurting themselves, just a part of their audience.

Honestly we’re asking the wrong question.

The question shouldn’t be to question GW’s strategy, the question should be “After Saturday’s releases, it will have been one day since a space marine release, so what’s next for space marines?”?

There should be a new in studio chapter approved in a WD with new rules sooner or later. Probably sooner.

 Huron black heart wrote:
I'm of the thinking that the future of the hobby surely lies in younger players, and from what I can tell there aren't anywhere near as many as there used to be. I suspect nearly everyone talking on this forum (a certain type of person admittedly) is probably aged over 20, most over 30 and a fair few like myself over 40. And this is a trend I see at GW stores, hobby events, heck even youtube channels. And like Hornby or Airfix certain things go out of fashion, there'll be some younger players trickling through, but if the those younger players keep decreasing in numbers then the hobby will surely dwindle.
Are GW doing enough to entice younger players? Or are younger players not coming through despite what GW does?
This is only my opinion based on an admittedly limited view of the gaming community.

*ahem*

https://warhammer-alliance.com/na/schools-program/#:~:text=A%20Warhammer%20Alliance%20School%20Club,for%20ages%2012%20and%20over.

Also, kids play at home with friends.

If anything GW is doing better with younger outreach than most other firms of its era and even market.

And yeah forums are for old people now - much as I hate to say it. The youth (and all those who came to the internet "late" ) are all on facebook/reddit/discord

GWs biggest long term failure is that they are slow to realize that by improving their rules writing they will grow their market share. Releasing tons of minis is great and works well, and follows the monetizing mode of video games that use “custom skins” etc. But what has made a game like magic the gathering eternal is the fact that the rules are considered to be well designed and so it entices new people to pick the game up. GW products are still considered to be a “dark shame” because the game system is weak and poorly designed relative to other war games. And that is their own doing. Dungeons and dragons and magic the gathering endure because of their game design. GW will endure through elegant model design, but by neglecting to write good rules, they do concede market share.

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
GWs biggest long term failure is that they are slow to realize that by improving their rules writing they will grow their market share. Releasing tons of minis is great and works well, and follows the monetizing mode of video games that use “custom skins” etc. But what has made a game like magic the gathering eternal is the fact that the rules are considered to be well designed and so it entices new people to pick the game up. GW products are still considered to be a “dark shame” because the game system is weak and poorly designed relative to other war games. And that is their own doing. Dungeons and dragons and magic the gathering endure because of their game design. GW will endure through elegant model design, but by neglecting to write good rules, they do concede market share.

Not sure about this. To whom are they losing their market share with their "bad rules?" A Magic player is not necessarily a lost 40K player - they might have not inclination to miniatures. And what is this "dark shame?" Are we playing the same game?