Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I saw a video debating necron's 'best' heavy weapon unit, comparing a DDA to a Doomstalker.

I pointed out that as a tankbuster unit the best necron unit all around is likely 3x Lokhust heavy destroyer.

Now yes, they aren't as tough or durable as the vehicles, and yes they could be wiped out by one hit from a blast weapon that does 1d6 dam. Plus they cost 210 points and more money than either a doomstalker or DDA.

But let's look at their merits.

A LHD hits on a 3+ and automatically rerolls 1's. If you take the masters of the martial dynastic trait you reroll one miss per unit per turn. So, in general when these badboys fire, you can usually count on 3 hits. (To whoever just said "Cover save" I say "Solar Pulse"!)

So on average this unit gets ~ as many hits as a DDA/DS gets shots. Then they must toll to hit after rolling for shots.

Assuming the s10 AP4 shot wounds (Quite likely) You're guaranteed 3 damage, statistically average of 6. That's comparable to the average damage a DDC on full power does in 2 hits.

Now multiply that by 3. On average 3 LHD can realistically be expected to do 18 points on damage firing at one target tank since many tanks don't have inv saves. 18 damage will kill most tanks pretty nicely.

Plus LHDs can move and fire to full effect, take cover in buildings, benefit from extermination protocols, etc.

Another advantage if flexibility, 3 LHD can split fire. If you have a tank with ~6W left you can fire one at it and the other 2 at an undamaged tank.

Yes, at a minimum if you get them at a discount you pay like 90 USD for them as opposed to lots less for a DDA or DS. But if you're facing an army that relies on tanks and these can one shot a couple before dying they may be a good deal for your army.

I didn't compare the monolith to the rest of the tankbusters due to it;s cost in money, points and CP.

Seconded, I'm planning for a full infantry army (bar SK) and here LHD's have a fixed place.

Yeah, honestly i'd generally recommend nothing but the gauss destructo-ray cannons over the enmitic annihilators as if you're facing horde armies with large units the ddc would only get 6 shots vs the LHDs 9, but it's higher str and damage even on "low" power makes it more effective against any horde forces that have a save of 5+. It's much better vs swarm peon units with like 3 wounds as on averrage it will take 2 hits to kill a base vs 3 and against them it can move and fire effectively and maybe even get in gauss flayer range where those 10 shots will add to the total.

It's a pity there are almost no uses for the enmitic annihilator, it does look so damn cool.

I've mentioned something very similar to this in the past so definitely agree.

The D6 shots/D6 damage from the other anti tank platforms make them way too unreliable.

I just wish LHDs weren't 70ppm otherwise I'd pop them in my lists almost every time. Even when they're not firing at vehicles, they're ridiculously efficient at killing MEQ.

Even against stuff like Morty, if he fails an invun you average 5 damage against him (with the -1 taken into account) which is really really nice

They are good at killing tanks, but once they do so, they are dead in the opponents turn. Unless you bring 9 of them they wont last long.

The premium Necron tank busting unit is 20 Warriors with Reapers buffed by Disintegration Capacitors, MWBD, and rerolls from the Silent King.

If you reroll any hit that isn't a 6, they inflict an average of 20 wounds at AP-2 vs T8.

Without the Silent Kings rerolls it's still a respectable 15.5 wounds.

So without the king vs. a standard 3+Sv tank, they deal 10 wounds. 3 LHD average slightly LESS than that. The LHDs are 50pts cheaper, but they're not dominating the mid-board and putting the boot in after they've shot.

Speaking of which, a unit of suitably buffed Novokh Warriors (MWBD, +1 Attack strat, +1 strength from strat or Protocol of the Hungry Void) will do another 5.5 wounds to a 3+ Sv vehicle in the Assault phase.

So a suitably buffed Warrior unit inflicts an average of 16 wounds to a 3+ Sv Vehicle.

If The Silent King is giving his rerolls then it's 22 wounds.


The most points efficient anti-tank unit in the Necron Codex is Warriors. We have come full circle.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The premium Necron tank busting unit is 20 Warriors with Reapers buffed by Disintegration Capacitors, MWBD, and rerolls from the Silent King.

And how do you get those 20 warriors and TSK within 14" of an artillery that is on the other side of the battlefield, 40-50" away, with lots of other enemy units between them ?

 p5freak wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The premium Necron tank busting unit is 20 Warriors with Reapers buffed by Disintegration Capacitors, MWBD, and rerolls from the Silent King.

And how do you get those 20 warriors and TSK within 14" of an artillery that is on the other side of the battlefield, 40-50" away, with lots of other enemy units between them ?

Two possible answers here:

1: You don't. You only concern yourself with dominating the middle of the board, because that wins you the game.

2: That Artillery piece will almost certainly be out of LoS, so the only anti tank option that has a chance of getting a shot on it is a Doomscythe.

The most points efficient anti-tank unit in the Necron Codex is Warriors. We have come full circle.

This isn't strictly true of course. 20 Flayed Ones fighting twice will inflict more wounds vs T7 3+ Sv than the Warriors for the same price, if you can get them there.
10 Lychguard with Scythes buffed to 5A S8 will crush that statline with 55 damage.

 p5freak wrote:
They are good at killing tanks, but once they do so, they are dead in the opponents turn. Unless you bring 9 of them they wont last long.

Yeah I hear you, thats kinda my point. 4 wounds at T5 for 70pts is gonna hurt once its gone no matter how good at killing stuff they are. There was a list back in November that ran 6 of them next to the SK and 20 warriors to place 3rd, even then it seemed like a bit of a gamble, and November was a long time ago now it seems .

Having said that, I still think they're our most reliable anti-tank in terms of damage output

Assuming you want to take some kind of dedicated anti tank unit I'd say it's a toss up between LHDs and Doomscythes. Both provide reliable damage output but come with durability concerns.

I fielded a pair of Doomsday Arks in a game recently and it convinced me that I never want to use our D6 shot, D6 damage options again. It felt like playing Orks.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Assuming you want to take some kind of dedicated anti tank unit I'd say it's a toss up between LHDs and Doomscythes. Both provide reliable damage output but come with durability concerns.

I fielded a pair of Doomsday Arks in a game recently and it convinced me that I never want to use our D6 shot, D6 damage options again. It felt like playing Orks.

Main issue with doomscythes is they are prohibitively expensive and fragile. They'd really need QS to justify their current price. They are just too easy to nuke down if you don't have first turn.

I think a single one is definitely worth it. In cover with a 2+ save, it can cause a lot of damage over the course of the game if it is ignored, placed in an optimal position that hides it partially from line of sight, or is just in a difficult to reach spot. It has enough wounds and durability to resist most basic infantry squads firing at it, then it can heal a wound each turn. If the enemy really wants to assure its death, they will have devote something a bit stronger, which helps your other, more important units. As a harassing unit, perhaps holding a backfield objective, a single one could do some work.

That points cost would keep me from using them in a 3-man squad, but that's just me.

They are fantastic and starting to be my go to unit when I start making a list.

Szarekahn gets a reroll wound per unit and the hit about 80% of the time. So It is pretty much roll invune save and then you get 3d3 damage. which is some of the best average your gonna get on a unit.

I take 3 in solo units and have them hold backfield.

Take that
2 doom schythes. You can pretty much focus on other parts of your list after that.

 p5freak wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The premium Necron tank busting unit is 20 Warriors with Reapers buffed by Disintegration Capacitors, MWBD, and rerolls from the Silent King.

And how do you get those 20 warriors and TSK within 14" of an artillery that is on the other side of the battlefield, 40-50" away, with lots of other enemy units between them ?

Veil of darkness, unless you left it at the cleaners. You may not be able to take the SK but an overlord will do. If the OL can cast MWBD before the VoD kicks in a royal warden with a VoD can be used, or a chronomancer for that handy 5++ save, or a plasmancer to lay down some more mortal wounds with his not smite.

Sasori wrote:
Main issue with doomscythes is they are prohibitively expensive and fragile. They'd really need QS to justify their current price. They are just too easy to nuke down if you don't have first turn.

Our dedicated anti tank options all seem to be priced about the same; 200 pts for 3 shots (Doomscythes are actually the most efficient pts wise). It's probably a little steep for any of them. Doomscythes would be auto include with QS though, so that's probably going a bit far.

Because all our options are overpriced, they need to be bringing more to the table than their damage per point vs tanks. The two options that feel like they do that to me are:

1) Doomscythes: I mostly like them for their ability to get to things hiding behind LoS blocking terrain. They are a life saver against Hive Guard for example, and can also be very useful at picking off little objective camping units with their Tesla Destructors. The way they can mess with the opponents movement is also very useful, either move blocking or forcing people to give their characters a 360 wrap.

2) Single Lokhust Heavy Destroyers: These probably bring the most utility outside of just shooting tanks. I think of them as Cryptothralls with better movement and a big gun for an extra 30 pts. They can do all the Cryptothrall jobs of camping objectives, screening out deepstrikers, performing actions, outflanking, but get to shoot their big gun sometimes too.


Ultimately I don't think we need any of our dedicated anti tank options, because they are no more efficient at the job than using massed 1 damage attacks.

 Matt Swain wrote:

Veil of darkness, unless you left it at the cleaners. You may not be able to take the SK but an overlord will do. If the OL can cast MWBD before the VoD kicks in a royal warden with a VoD can be used, or a chronomancer for that handy 5++ save, or a plasmancer to lay down some more mortal wounds with his not smite.

No, unless you play against a noob who hasnt heard about area denial.

I've also been putting a couple of Heavy Destroyers in my lists instead of a DDA. But tbh I think all of our heavy support anti tank options are drastically overpriced. LHD's should be around 55ppm and DDA's 170 points max

 p5freak wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:

Veil of darkness, unless you left it at the cleaners. You may not be able to take the SK but an overlord will do. If the OL can cast MWBD before the VoD kicks in a royal warden with a VoD can be used, or a chronomancer for that handy 5++ save, or a plasmancer to lay down some more mortal wounds with his not smite.

No, unless you play against a noob who hasnt heard about area denial.

Not all armies are equipped to aries denyal, are they? Or am I just in the wrong part of the pool.

Cynista wrote:
I've also been putting a couple of Heavy Destroyers in my lists instead of a DDA. But tbh I think all of our heavy support anti tank options are drastically overpriced. LHD's should be around 55ppm and DDA's 170 points max

Instead, I'm thinking of normal Destroyers as Primaris hunters.
The new LHD models are much better than the old (normal) Destroyers.

A Death Ray Monolith, drop it in range, roast the sucker, then charge!

 Niiai wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:

Veil of darkness, unless you left it at the cleaners. You may not be able to take the SK but an overlord will do. If the OL can cast MWBD before the VoD kicks in a royal warden with a VoD can be used, or a chronomancer for that handy 5++ save, or a plasmancer to lay down some more mortal wounds with his not smite.

No, unless you play against a noob who hasnt heard about area denial.

Not all armies are equipped to aries denyal, are they? Or am I just in the wrong part of the pool.

Nah - most armies are lacking any real chaff because it dies too easy. The majority of armies are all elites units. VOD is prime and auto include in every necron list. It would be used anyways because it is also the best way to remove a screen turn 1 as well.

Having used x3 LHD in my last few games. I've learned you HAVE to abuse LOS to get mileage out of them, only exposing themselves to the target they mean to kill, and then killing it. They have a glass jaw. But also, if the squad isn't wiped, a technomancer with the phylactrine hive can restore one. Giving you back 70 pts for the 20 pt investment.

Why are people ignoring our FW Tessie Ark? Gauss it up, it's roughly the same points as Doomscythe\DDA, yet far more effective, possessed of different fire modes for different targets, and a 4++ save with QS. Each packs the firepower of 2 destroyers + the main gun.

Why is this not a primary AT option for others? 3 of them are a linchpin of my current 50 warrior list.

D6 shots D6 damage. And only S8.

2d3 shots at D3 damage. D6 shots at 3 flat *or* d6 at d6. This ain't the DDA... don't ignore most of the sheet.

I think the folks upthread put their finger on it. Tankbusting is just comparatively irrelevant in 9th, at least the way it's played locally.

Both sides have stuff that runs up on the objective, and stuff that sits in the back on their home objectives shooting.

Tanks, and vehicles generally, tend to fit in the latter category.

I rarely have the leisure to shoot the enemy models that aren't pushing for the objectives. Those just sit tidy and blast me all game long.

If an enemy vehicles *does* push up, then, like they say upthread, they get the close up treatment. Rapid fire whatever. Charged by CC troops.

I checked my logs. In my last 10 games, the Nightbringer has killed far and away the most vehicles. That's not because he's some kind of antitank specialist, it's because the only vehicles being popped are those which come up onto the objectives.

I think that's why I'm leaning towards tessie arks currently. They have solid anti-tank capacity, but are death vs marines. Honestly, their best use is as an absolute anti-marine specialist unit with 4++ wound on 4s survivability. With them around, I have solid hate vs the primary threat statline (primaris) and functional anti-tank when I absolutely *have* to pay my respects to something armorclad while staying at a respectful distance.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Having used x3 LHD in my last few games. I've learned you HAVE to abuse LOS to get mileage out of them, only exposing themselves to the target they mean to kill, and then killing it. They have a glass jaw. But also, if the squad isn't wiped, a technomancer with the phylactrine hive can restore one. Giving you back 70 pts for the 20 pt investment.

I'd position the LHD such that they can see the enemy to be taken on and nothing else.
If they annihilate the target, the enemy must bring units into position to fire back.

 DogHeadGod wrote:
2d3 shots at D3 damage. D6 shots at 3 flat *or* d6 at d6. This ain't the DDA... don't ignore most of the sheet.

As it's a thread about tankbusting I was ignoring the non-tankbusting fire modes. It does seem like a decent all rounder though.

If we are generally complaining as to how the pure tankbusting units are either a. squishy as hell or b. unreliable and single-purpose as hell, shouldn't we consider the really tanky all-rounder hiding behind that unfortunate FW price tag?

I say yes.