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At the end of the day it all comes down to what you want to play I find the deathwing brick list boring to use and play against tbh I've been looking at running ravenwing as my list for the local events in my area as Zergsmasher said there just more fun to use

Hive guard like you say are broken at the moment crusher stampede list has no being place in the game in my opinion

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just looked through some of the LVO results myself, and it looks like the 4 highest placing Dark Angels lists (placing 14th, 78th, 112th, and 141st) were all variations on the "Oops! All Terminators" theme, with the only real differences being how the units of Terminators were kitted out. 3 of the 4 lists took a tooled-up Interrogator-Chaplain as the Warlord, which I didn't know was a thing in competitive play. I thought most Deathwing lists took Azrael. Shows what I know, eh?

The list that got 14th place took alot of lightning claws.

I thought chainfist + hammers are the way to go.

Would be great if we could get some footage from his games.

Seems like his strategy was to focus any chaff / obsec units and hold objectives. the rerolls to wound on claws and addittional attacks are great for this

I think that LVO used the GT2021 Mission Pack, and therefore had better access to guaranteed high-scoring Secondaries for Deathwing. The Deathwing lists have been focusing on maxing out Secondaries (including both Stubborn Defiance and Oath of Moment) and simply surviving on a couple of other mid-field objectives with big groups of Obsec Deathwing. I haven't played with the new mission pack - I have a tourney in three weeks and we'll see how it turns out. My read of the missions over the weekend tells me that you need a bit more mobility these days, but that is a hot take! Obsec Terminators that can only be wounded on a 4+ are always going to play the mission well to some extent.

I've had this idea bouncing around in my head for a list that brings both a Ravenwing Outrider and a Deathwing Vanguard, using nothing but ObSec models aside from characters. Here's a rough idea using models I personally own:

If you split up the 10-man Deathwing unit, you have a total of 8 ObSec units that are either highly mobile (Ravenwing) or durable (Deathwing). Bit of a "Hammer and Anvil" approach. The Relic Termies are kitted out the way they are because those are the models I have; dropping the extra weapons on them for Combibolters would free up 10 points to put something else on the Bikers. Having 4 models in each of the Bike units gives us a bit of leeway for Engage on All Fronts eligibility in the new missions; they now have to lose 2 models to be disqualified. The Outrider unit is only there because you can't have more than 3 Bike Squads due to Rule of 3, and I didn't want to take something that wasn't ObSec.

Oldman Lee wrote:


Hive guard like you say are broken at the moment crusher stampede list has no being place in the game in my opinion

What’s the beef with Crusher Stampede?

Took a Deathwing-heavy force against Crusher Stampede today in a warm-up match for an upcoming tourney. My list is a variation on something that I placed 2nd with at a tourney in Nov:

Vanguard: Azrael, 10 x Deathwing Terminators (Cyclone x 2 and 5 Stormshields), 5 x Deathwing Terminators (Cyclone and 1 x Stormshield), 5 x Deathwing Knights, Deathwing Ancient
Patrol: Ezekiel, 5 x Incursors, 3 x Eradicators (with the Heavy Melta Rifles), Ravenwing Apothecary and 4 x Plasma Inceptors.

He had a bunch o big bugs with some Hive Guard. We rolled up Data Scrye Salvage - a tough one for both of us due to Hold 2/Hold 3/ Hold More. I took Stubborn Defiance, Bring it Down and Banners. My plan was to hold my objective and right mid-field while contesting the left with the Deathwing Knights.

My shooting against his bug bugs stripped a grand total of 7 wounds: -1 Damage and the 5++ was tough to chew through. His non-LOS shooting took out my Eradicators Turn 1 and then the Plasma Inceptors Turn 2. His Stratagem to roll for Mortals wounds on a charge was devastating. Even capped at 6 MWs per charge, that was two dead Terminators each time before we even got swinging. Damage reduction was a real nerf to my Maces and Hammers as well. The Plasma Inceptors did four wounds with their supercharged WFTDA volley before they died. Damage reduction really hurts!

The Incurors did remarkably well, holding my objective for four turns and killing a Harpy. Go Incursors! The rest of my army was ground down. We took some big bugs with us and were doing OK on Primary until Turn 4 and 5 when I was tabled in his Turn 4.

Its a tough matchup. I think a Deathwing force needs some screening troops to survive against a Crusher Stampede. Still, a fun game and good to see the Stampede on the table. The Blood Angel next to me lost 800 points of models Turn 1 to Tau shooting...So at least I can say I had a better game! Kinda...

Sounds like you had some crappy dice or your opponent's were red hot. That and Crusher Stampede is broken af right now. I'm surprised he was able to just grind you down that easily despite needing 4+ to wound your Termies, even if he was deleting models on the charge with the mortals.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Sounds like you had some crappy dice or your opponent's were red hot. That and Crusher Stampede is broken af right now. I'm surprised he was able to just grind you down that easily despite needing 4+ to wound your Termies, even if he was deleting models on the charge with the mortals.

We do tend to remember the times when our opponent makes three 5++ saves or rolls all 4s on his Wound rolls! My first (and only) Eradicator volley hit well enough, but I rolled a bunch of 3s for the Wounds. I had one pre-emptive charge roll (to avoid the MW thing) that needed a 7 fail even with a CP. Beyond that my own rolls were OK.

I will give two vignettes. My Deathwing Knights were faced off against a Harpy and a Flying Hive Tyrant. His shooting chipped off two wounds and then a charge did 6 Mortal Wounds. So I have to pick up two Deathwing Knights before the fight has started. He then finishes off a third (wounded) DW Knight with his own attack. My riposte (with two DW Knights) got two hits through his 4++ Invul, so four wounds (instead of six). In the following round I lost another DW Knight but did land two more wounding hits, so the Flying Hive Tyrant was now down to four wounds (he would normally be dead by now). In the last round of melee I landed a final blow (2 wounds) and then died. The crippled, but still alive and dangerous Flying Hive Tyrant then flew off to fight another squad. The same DW Knight Squad withstood the charge of a Keeper of Secrets in Nov and killed it with one round of Maces.

A second Flying Hive Tyrant fought Azrael, Ezekiel and a Deathwing Bodyguard Squad from behind while a Scythed Heriodule(?) fought two five-man DW Squads to the front. With a (-1) to wound roll Relic Azrael and Ezekiel were wounding with their swords on 6s. That Flying HIve Tyrant did die, but he took all those with him (two DW Termies for the squads fighting to the front had to help out in that fight to kill the Hive Tyrant). Meanwhile, even with my Banner damage reduction the big bug removed two models with a charge and killed one DW Terminator with each of my failed saves. I had five Thunderhammers going into him, but again with damage reduction and a 5++ save I only hurt the bug.

The game score was actually pretty close as I tried to play to the objectives, but I was tabled. I think that pure Deathwing will struggle against the Crusher Stampede. It needs some bubble-wrap to absorb the charges.

I don't imagine that Hive Guard will keep the shoot twice stratagem, so perhaps my Eradicators (or Attack Bikes) would have survived another turn once the new Tyranid book comes out. A list needs high-damage shots do deal with those big bugs. Massed Plasma and Hammers/Maces are not the answer!

Now, this was my first game against the Stampede, and perhaps I was a little too "I have Inner Circle, what, me worry?" at the start of the game?

What kind of bubble wrap could we take without diluting the Deathwing too much? I definitely agree that we need the high damage stuff, like Eradicators and MM Attack Bikes. Cyclones are good on the Terminators, I would think, especially since you can pop Deathwing Assault on the turn they land for +1 to wound.

Maybe Azrael's lack of success is part of why at LVO most of the DA players were running a Jump Pack Interrogator Chaplain, tooled up for killing. Azzy would be kind of anemic vs. Crusher, although his reroll buff is very handy to have. But, you give an Interrogator the Imperium's Sword trait, Benediction of Fury, and the Mantra of Strength and suddenly he just straight up murders things, especially in later turns when the Deathwing part of our super doctrine kicks in and we get rerolls to wound vs. monsters (that right there should help a bit with Crusher Stampede).

 ZergSmasher wrote:
What kind of bubble wrap could we take without diluting the Deathwing too much? I definitely agree that we need the high damage stuff, like Eradicators and MM Attack Bikes. Cyclones are good on the Terminators, I would think, especially since you can pop Deathwing Assault on the turn they land for +1 to wound.

Maybe Azrael's lack of success is part of why at LVO most of the DA players were running a Jump Pack Interrogator Chaplain, tooled up for killing. Azzy would be kind of anemic vs. Crusher, although his reroll buff is very handy to have. But, you give an Interrogator the Imperium's Sword trait, Benediction of Fury, and the Mantra of Strength and suddenly he just straight up murders things, especially in later turns when the Deathwing part of our super doctrine kicks in and we get rerolls to wound vs. monsters (that right there should help a bit with Crusher Stampede).

Good points - Dark Angel bubble-wrap does not come cheap! I was quite sad-panda at the end of my Turn 1 shooting phase when an Eradicator Squad with a multi-melta and two Heavy Melta Rifles plus two Cyclone Missile Launchers stripped a total of 7 wounds off a big bug...In melee I was hopeful that our superdoctrine would help in Turn 3 (I put one squad in Assault Doctrine earlier with a Strat). It was good to reroll wounds with Thunderhammers.

In the interests of transparency, this is a list that I am taking to a local tourney in two weeks - our lists were due a week ago. I did not tailor at all against a Crusher Stampede - I took Azrael to protect and buff my shooters. That worked great at a tourney in the fall, yesterday not so much! I think you are right that a Chaplain might be the way to go with Deathwing. Maybe two to give some Mortal Wound protection? Maybe its time for Lazarus to come off the bench and hit the ice! Probably not, but the thought is there.

Lazarus is a cute idea, but he only blocks about a third of the MW coming in and doesn't do a whole lot else. I'm sure he's hilarious in the GK matchup, because he not only stops some of the mortal wounds but his sword goes to D4 vs. psykers which combined with the super doctrine means he drops a Dreadknight in one turn, at least if your opponent is a little unlucky with the saves.

How exactly does one kit out an interigator properly?

Vulshra wrote:
How exactly does one kit out an interigator properly?

My idea for this:
-Jump pack for mobility
-Master of Sanctity for the extra Litany each turn
-Make him the Warlord and give him Paragon of the Chapter; take the Wise Orator (more reliable Litanies) and The Imperium's Sword (murder stuff better) traits
-Give him the Benediction of Fury relic (starts at AP-2 D3)
-Litany-wise, take Mantra of Strength (for making the Interrogator hit harder) and either Exhortation of Rage (use on the Interrogator himself for +1 to wound) or Canticle of Hate (6" radius bubble of +2" to charge).
-Profit! If you get Mantra of Strength off, your Interrogator is making 7 attacks on the charge, hitting on 2's, at S8 AP-2 D4, rerolling all wounds if you are in Assault Doctrine due to being Deathwing Infantry. You also have permanent Transhuman Physiology because, again, Deathwing Infantry.

I've seen one or two lists that took a Chainsword and upgraded it to the Teeth of Terra, but I prefer Benediction of Fury as it does enough damage to matter even to -1 damage targets. Your other real option is to use the Interrogator as a buff-bot and just take litanies to boost the capabilities of your other units. In this case, it could be useful to take the Litany of Faith for a 5+++ against mortal wounds, which are one thing that reliably gets around the defenses of our Deathwing units.

Edit: the reroll wounds from Assault Doctrine only works vs. vehicles and monsters. Still good though, as those are where you generally need more damage.

As the strike cruiser heads back to the Rock I am sending my after action report from a five-round 24 player local tournament. I do this so that others can learn from my mistakes.

We had to submit our lists as CA2022 dropped. I went with a variation on a list that I had used to obtain a 2nd place finish in the fall:

Deathwing Vanguard: Azrael, 10 x DW Terminators (TH/SS and Cyclone Launchers), 5 x DW Terminators, 5 x DW Knights, DW Ancient with Standard and Watched, 2 x DW Command Squad.

Patrol: Ezekiel, 5 x Incursors, 3 x Eradicators with Heavy Melta Rifles and Multi-Melta, 4 x Plasma Inceptors, Ravenwing Apothecary with Reliquary of Repentence

I took Ezekiel as a calculated risk. He had done very well for me before, and I figured if I went up against Thousand Sons I would take my licks. My plan for Secondaries was Oath of Moment, Investigate Signal and perhaps Warp Ritual (own the centre of the board with resilient Deathwing).I realized after I submitted my list that I should have bumped the Command Squad to 3 to be able to perform the Investigate Signal action. Oops.

Game 1: Recover the Relics vs Necrons. He had two big blobs of Warriors, 5 x Wraiths, 6 x Skorpeckh Destroyers, 3 x Canoptek Doomstalkers and some support characters. He moved his Wraiths and Destroyers forward with a pre-game move even though I was going first. Turn 1 my Plasma Inceptors wiped out the Destroyers. His Wraiths bounced off my Deathwing who then crushed them, taking advantage of the Ravenwing Apothecary de-buff of invuls. The Deathwing Knights then pinballed through both Warrior blobs (Relic Flail) while the Eradicators took down the Doomstalkers. A decisive win with 81 points. Investigate Sites was a pain once my Incurors were dead since I lacked a squad to park on the objective.

Game 2: Tear Down their Icons vs Thousand Sons. Uh-oh. He had Ahriman, two 10 man Rubric Terminator Squads, three Rubric Marine squads and some Spawn. I took Oath of Moment, Raise the Banners and Engage on All Fronts. I sent two DW Squads wide while the rest of my force went up the middle, keeping the Plasma Inceptors in deep strike. My Eradicators killed six Terminators and got his attention. His Psychic phase was devastating and the Eradicators died to a variety of powers. I then realized that his second Terminator squad could kill my Plasma Inceptors when they dropped with their Psychic equivalent of Auspex Scan (18" range). They then picked on other targets while the Deathwing Knights made it into the second Rubric Terminator Squad and ground them down to two models. We both maxed on Primary, but he was able to max out his Psychic secondary due to Ezekiel along with Mental Interrogation. I lost but still scored over 60 points. Ezekiel was a major liability.

Game 3: Abandoned Sanctuaries vs Drukhari. He had a Patrol of Wracks, Grots and Talos, a Patrol of Wyches and Hellions and a Patrol of Kabal along with two Raiders and two Ravagers. I took Investigate Signal, Psychic Ritual and Oath of Moment. I went first and grabbed the centre with the DW Knights up front shielding Ezekiel with the DW Command Squad tucked behind to stop folks with Fly zooming over to attack him. His fire on my DW Knights was devastating and killed three. The Talos were then able to kill them along with Ezekiel. At this point I knew the game was lost but I remembered my Oaths and fought on. I maxed on Primary, killed lots of stuff and had a knot of Dark Angels in the centre of the board but with only three points for Ritual I lost the game on Secondaries.

Game 4: Conversion vs Thousand Sons. Darn darn darnity darn. He had Magnus, Ahriman, a Demon Prince, some Librarian/Priest dude, a big Rubric Terminator Squad, a Defiler sort of things and some support squad. I took Oath of Moment, Investigate Signal and Assassinate. Turn 1 my Eradicator and Missile Launchers rolled hot and Magnus went down, as did half of the Terminators. The Defiler and Demon Prince also went down to Maces of Aboslution and the invul debuff. His Psychic riposte was terrifying, though, and Ahriman consisently inflicted 8 to 11 MWs each turn. Once again I maxed out on Primary and Oath, but he also maxed out on Primary as well as his Psychic one (based on MWs) as well as Mental Interrogation. It was a close game with me losing my 3 points. Full credit to my opponent for getting the win after having his lynch-pin killed Turn 1. I also gave up a turn of movement for a DW squad to get better Cyclone shots on Magnus that cost me later (in that they likely could have denied him max Primary had they moved Turn 1).

Game 5: Tide of Conviction vs Crusher Stampede. Hold 2 Hold 3 is not friendly to Deathing, nor is Crusher Stampede. Still, I grimly resolved to make the best of it. He came at my with two Flyrants, a Swarmlord and some other big bug while Hive Guard and an Exocrine rained death on me. I kept the DW Knights in deep strike and tried to keep the rest of my force back while offering my Incurors as MW sponges. The Heavy Eradicators took down a Flyrant while the deep-striking DW Knights killed two others over three turns and crippled a third. I did poorly on Primary, though, as he killed my small DW squads on the flanks. I held the centre of the battlefield and had him on the run but lost the game.

Lessons. So I went 1 and 4, although my placing was surprisingly high due to my high scores in each game. I never got blown out (scoring between 50 and 73 in my losses), but it was clear to me that my GT 2021 design and tactics would need to be adjusted going forward.

Leave Psykers at home. Taking Ezekiel handed two wins to my opponent on Secondaries. Handing over 15 VPs for their "score more MWs in the Psychic Phase" also locked me out of Abhor the Witch. Self-inflicted wound.
Deathwing have issues with Secondaries now. I would trade one DW Squad for two small Tactical or Intercessor Squads to open up the RND/Engage on all Fronts Secondaries. I should have taken a three-man DW Command Squad to try to make my Investigate Signal plan work. I think that Secondary could work if you built for it.
Heavy Eradicators are really good. They can eat CPs, but they work through the damage reduction that is quite common. Attack Bikes are probably better in many cases, but give those heavy melta-rifles a look.
The DW Ancient with the Standard of Repentance was underwhelming. Most are planning for damage reduction so either take high volume D1 or guaranteed D4 damage (Dark Lances etc). Watched sounded good in theory but the Thousand Sons can spend Cabal Points to have a power be undeniable. Those points would have been better served with another Command Squad or an Intercessor Squad for the Patrol.
Deathwing Knights are still really good. They don't need a babysitter and can kill pretty much anything.

Tango Two, given you said melta bikes are probably better than eradicators, are looking to engage on all fonts, and need more 3 man squads why not a RW outrider detachment instead of a patrol to support the DW Vanguard? I think you could fit it relatively easily

Funny that you mention bikes and Deathwing, Vulshra, because that's my latest bit of tech!

To elaborate, I just played a 2k point game vs. a friend earlier this evening. This was my list:

The whole premise of this list is that every single unit besides the characters has Objective Secured, and boy was it clutch in this game. My opponent was running Space Wolves, and he had the following:

I won't go over the whole game, and I don't remember the name of the mission (it did have sticky objectives, 5 of them) but my secondary choices were Stubborn Defiance, No Prisoners, and Assassination. His were Engage on All Fronts, Retrieve Nachmund Data, and Warrior Pride (one of the SW ones). I ended up going first, and thanks to some decent luck with the dice and all my ObSec I managed to take the win (we called it at the end of turn 4 and talked it out from there). I got the full 14 for Stubborn Defiance, 7 for Assassinate, and I can't remember how many for No Prisoners. I also maxed the Primary. My opponent struggled to get Primary points early on and that cost him, as well as failing RND a couple of times (not sure he got anything for it at all), and he didn't get much for Engage either.

Having a lot of ObSec really was big. My list has 8 units with ObSec since I will almost always combat squad the big Deathwing brick (I did in this game); four of them are really hard to remove, and the other four are fast moving and can bring some ranged pain with the melta weapons. I feel like I can play okay into Custodes probably, but Tau would be a rough matchup, as would Crusher Stampede due to all the mortals (the main Achilles' heel of Deathwing). Being able to play the objectives well could help with any of those matchups, although Custodes do the ObSec plan better than we do (although nowadays their Bikes don't have it).

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Funny that you mention bikes and Deathwing, Vulshra, because that's my latest bit of tech!

To elaborate, I just played a 2k point game vs. a friend earlier this evening. This was my list:

Spoiler:

Deathwing Vanguard Detachment
Interrogator-Chaplain: Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum, Master of Sanctity, Warlord (Wise Orator), Paragon of the Chapter (The Imperium's Sword), Relic: Benediction of Fury, Litanies: Mantra of Strength, Canticle of Hate
Bladeguard Ancient: Relic: Pennant of Remembrance
10 Deathwing Terminators: Power Sword/SB on Sgt., 2x CML/SB/Chainfist, 3x TH/SS, 4x SB/Chainfist, Watcher in the Dark
5 Deathwing Terminators: 3x TH/SS (including Sgt.), 2x Twin LC
5 Relic Terminators: 5x LC, 3x Combibolter, Plasma Blaster, Reaper Autocannon
Ravenwing Outrider Detachment
Ravenwing Talonmaster
Ravenwing Apothecary: Chief Apothecary, Hero of the Chapter (Selfless Healer)
3 Bikers: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Bikers: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Bikers: 2x Chainsword, SB on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Outriders
2000 points, starts with 6 CP

The whole premise of this list is that every single unit besides the characters has Objective Secured, and boy was it clutch in this game. My opponent was running Space Wolves, and he had the following:

Spoiler:

Battalion Detachment
No Force Org: 5 Voidsmen-At-Arms
Captain on Bike: Chapter Master, LC, SB, Warlord (Hunter), extra Trait (Imperium's Sword), Frost Weapon
Primaris Chaplain on Bike: Master of Sanctity, Hero of the Chapter (Wise Orator), Benediction of Fury, Litanies: Mantra of Strength, Exhortation of Rage
Primaris Librarian: Chief Librarian, The Armor of Russ, Hero of the Chapter (+1 to casting, whatever it's called), Powers: Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane, Instincts Awoken
5 Intercessors: Auto Bolt Rifles, Chainsword
5 Assault Intercessors: Thunder Hammer
5 Assault Intercessors: Thunder Hammer
5 Scouts: Combat Knives
5 Bladeguard Veterans
7 Wolf Guard: Jump Packs, 7x SS, 6x LC, TH on Pack Leader
7 Wolf Guard: Jump Packs, 7x SS, 6x LC, TH on Pack Leader
6 Long Fangs: 4x MM, Grav Cannon, Chainsword on Sgt., WGPL with Chainsword/SS
2x Land Speeder Storm
Drop Pod
Impulsor: Shield Dome

I won't go over the whole game, and I don't remember the name of the mission (it did have sticky objectives, 5 of them) but my secondary choices were Stubborn Defiance, No Prisoners, and Assassination. His were Engage on All Fronts, Retrieve Nachmund Data, and Warrior Pride (one of the SW ones). I ended up going first, and thanks to some decent luck with the dice and all my ObSec I managed to take the win (we called it at the end of turn 4 and talked it out from there). I got the full 14 for Stubborn Defiance, 7 for Assassinate, and I can't remember how many for No Prisoners. I also maxed the Primary. My opponent struggled to get Primary points early on and that cost him, as well as failing RND a couple of times (not sure he got anything for it at all), and he didn't get much for Engage either.

Having a lot of ObSec really was big. My list has 8 units with ObSec since I will almost always combat squad the big Deathwing brick (I did in this game); four of them are really hard to remove, and the other four are fast moving and can bring some ranged pain with the melta weapons. I feel like I can play okay into Custodes probably, but Tau would be a rough matchup, as would Crusher Stampede due to all the mortals (the main Achilles' heel of Deathwing). Being able to play the objectives well could help with any of those matchups, although Custodes do the ObSec plan better than we do (although nowadays their Bikes don't have it).

Unless I missed a FAQ, you get 3 CP back when your warlord is in either a DW or RW detatchment so you are starting with 9 CP. Which is nice .

On page 42 of the DA codex under 1st or 2nd company rules.

Vulshra wrote:
Tango Two, given you said melta bikes are probably better than eradicators, are looking to engage on all fonts, and need more 3 man squads why not a RW outrider detachment instead of a patrol to support the DW Vanguard? I think you could fit it relatively easily

A Ravenwing Outrider Detachment instead of a Greenwing Patrol would absolutely be a good option! Keep in mind, though, that min-Ravenwing Bike squads only have to lose one model to no longer count for Engage on All Fronts. Additionally, Engage on All Fronts locks you out of Stubborn Defiance - not a show stopper since we can take Oath but something to think about.

I went with the Patrol to get the Plasma Inceptors. If I was to get a chance to reboot my list for the same tourney Ezekiel would be left at home in exchange for an Interrogator Chaplain or Lazarus (for MW protection and not giving TSons free 15 points) and drop the Ancient. I would bump up the Deathwing Command Squad to 3.

I will likely go Ravenwing-heavy for my next tourney. Mobility is so important.

 redux wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Funny that you mention bikes and Deathwing, Vulshra, because that's my latest bit of tech!

To elaborate, I just played a 2k point game vs. a friend earlier this evening. This was my list:

Spoiler:

Deathwing Vanguard Detachment
Interrogator-Chaplain: Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum, Master of Sanctity, Warlord (Wise Orator), Paragon of the Chapter (The Imperium's Sword), Relic: Benediction of Fury, Litanies: Mantra of Strength, Canticle of Hate
Bladeguard Ancient: Relic: Pennant of Remembrance
10 Deathwing Terminators: Power Sword/SB on Sgt., 2x CML/SB/Chainfist, 3x TH/SS, 4x SB/Chainfist, Watcher in the Dark
5 Deathwing Terminators: 3x TH/SS (including Sgt.), 2x Twin LC
5 Relic Terminators: 5x LC, 3x Combibolter, Plasma Blaster, Reaper Autocannon
Ravenwing Outrider Detachment
Ravenwing Talonmaster
Ravenwing Apothecary: Chief Apothecary, Hero of the Chapter (Selfless Healer)
3 Bikers: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Bikers: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Bikers: 2x Chainsword, SB on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Outriders
2000 points, starts with 6 CP

The whole premise of this list is that every single unit besides the characters has Objective Secured, and boy was it clutch in this game. My opponent was running Space Wolves, and he had the following:

Spoiler:

Battalion Detachment
No Force Org: 5 Voidsmen-At-Arms
Captain on Bike: Chapter Master, LC, SB, Warlord (Hunter), extra Trait (Imperium's Sword), Frost Weapon
Primaris Chaplain on Bike: Master of Sanctity, Hero of the Chapter (Wise Orator), Benediction of Fury, Litanies: Mantra of Strength, Exhortation of Rage
Primaris Librarian: Chief Librarian, The Armor of Russ, Hero of the Chapter (+1 to casting, whatever it's called), Powers: Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane, Instincts Awoken
5 Intercessors: Auto Bolt Rifles, Chainsword
5 Assault Intercessors: Thunder Hammer
5 Assault Intercessors: Thunder Hammer
5 Scouts: Combat Knives
5 Bladeguard Veterans
7 Wolf Guard: Jump Packs, 7x SS, 6x LC, TH on Pack Leader
7 Wolf Guard: Jump Packs, 7x SS, 6x LC, TH on Pack Leader
6 Long Fangs: 4x MM, Grav Cannon, Chainsword on Sgt., WGPL with Chainsword/SS
2x Land Speeder Storm
Drop Pod
Impulsor: Shield Dome

I won't go over the whole game, and I don't remember the name of the mission (it did have sticky objectives, 5 of them) but my secondary choices were Stubborn Defiance, No Prisoners, and Assassination. His were Engage on All Fronts, Retrieve Nachmund Data, and Warrior Pride (one of the SW ones). I ended up going first, and thanks to some decent luck with the dice and all my ObSec I managed to take the win (we called it at the end of turn 4 and talked it out from there). I got the full 14 for Stubborn Defiance, 7 for Assassinate, and I can't remember how many for No Prisoners. I also maxed the Primary. My opponent struggled to get Primary points early on and that cost him, as well as failing RND a couple of times (not sure he got anything for it at all), and he didn't get much for Engage either.

Having a lot of ObSec really was big. My list has 8 units with ObSec since I will almost always combat squad the big Deathwing brick (I did in this game); four of them are really hard to remove, and the other four are fast moving and can bring some ranged pain with the melta weapons. I feel like I can play okay into Custodes probably, but Tau would be a rough matchup, as would Crusher Stampede due to all the mortals (the main Achilles' heel of Deathwing). Being able to play the objectives well could help with any of those matchups, although Custodes do the ObSec plan better than we do (although nowadays their Bikes don't have it).

Unless I missed a FAQ, you get 3 CP back when your warlord is in either a DW or RW detatchment so you are starting with 9 CP. Which is nice .

On page 42 of the DA codex under 1st or 2nd company rules.

It's 9 from the detachments, but then I spend 3 more on extra traits/relics.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Funny that you mention bikes and Deathwing, Vulshra, because that's my latest bit of tech!

To elaborate, I just played a 2k point game vs. a friend earlier this evening. This was my list:

Spoiler:

Deathwing Vanguard Detachment
Interrogator-Chaplain: Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum, Master of Sanctity, Warlord (Wise Orator), Paragon of the Chapter (The Imperium's Sword), Relic: Benediction of Fury, Litanies: Mantra of Strength, Canticle of Hate
Bladeguard Ancient: Relic: Pennant of Remembrance
10 Deathwing Terminators: Power Sword/SB on Sgt., 2x CML/SB/Chainfist, 3x TH/SS, 4x SB/Chainfist, Watcher in the Dark
5 Deathwing Terminators: 3x TH/SS (including Sgt.), 2x Twin LC
5 Relic Terminators: 5x LC, 3x Combibolter, Plasma Blaster, Reaper Autocannon
Ravenwing Outrider Detachment
Ravenwing Talonmaster
Ravenwing Apothecary: Chief Apothecary, Hero of the Chapter (Selfless Healer)
3 Bikers: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Bikers: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Bikers: 2x Chainsword, SB on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Outriders
2000 points, starts with 6 CP

The whole premise of this list is that every single unit besides the characters has Objective Secured, and boy was it clutch in this game. My opponent was running Space Wolves, and he had the following:

Spoiler:

Battalion Detachment
No Force Org: 5 Voidsmen-At-Arms
Captain on Bike: Chapter Master, LC, SB, Warlord (Hunter), extra Trait (Imperium's Sword), Frost Weapon
Primaris Chaplain on Bike: Master of Sanctity, Hero of the Chapter (Wise Orator), Benediction of Fury, Litanies: Mantra of Strength, Exhortation of Rage
Primaris Librarian: Chief Librarian, The Armor of Russ, Hero of the Chapter (+1 to casting, whatever it's called), Powers: Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane, Instincts Awoken
5 Intercessors: Auto Bolt Rifles, Chainsword
5 Assault Intercessors: Thunder Hammer
5 Assault Intercessors: Thunder Hammer
5 Scouts: Combat Knives
5 Bladeguard Veterans
7 Wolf Guard: Jump Packs, 7x SS, 6x LC, TH on Pack Leader
7 Wolf Guard: Jump Packs, 7x SS, 6x LC, TH on Pack Leader
6 Long Fangs: 4x MM, Grav Cannon, Chainsword on Sgt., WGPL with Chainsword/SS
2x Land Speeder Storm
Drop Pod
Impulsor: Shield Dome

I won't go over the whole game, and I don't remember the name of the mission (it did have sticky objectives, 5 of them) but my secondary choices were Stubborn Defiance, No Prisoners, and Assassination. His were Engage on All Fronts, Retrieve Nachmund Data, and Warrior Pride (one of the SW ones). I ended up going first, and thanks to some decent luck with the dice and all my ObSec I managed to take the win (we called it at the end of turn 4 and talked it out from there). I got the full 14 for Stubborn Defiance, 7 for Assassinate, and I can't remember how many for No Prisoners. I also maxed the Primary. My opponent struggled to get Primary points early on and that cost him, as well as failing RND a couple of times (not sure he got anything for it at all), and he didn't get much for Engage either.

Having a lot of ObSec really was big. My list has 8 units with ObSec since I will almost always combat squad the big Deathwing brick (I did in this game); four of them are really hard to remove, and the other four are fast moving and can bring some ranged pain with the melta weapons. I feel like I can play okay into Custodes probably, but Tau would be a rough matchup, as would Crusher Stampede due to all the mortals (the main Achilles' heel of Deathwing). Being able to play the objectives well could help with any of those matchups, although Custodes do the ObSec plan better than we do (although nowadays their Bikes don't have it).

Curious on your thoughts on meltaguns vs plasma guns on bike squads. I would think WotDA (plus general theming) and range would make plasma the choice, but I see most people running meltaguns

Vulshra wrote:
Curious on your thoughts on meltaguns vs plasma guns on bike squads. I would think WotDA (plus general theming) and range would make plasma the choice, but I see most people running meltaguns

Weapons from the Dark Age is woefully inefficient on just a bike squad; you're spending 2CP to increase the damage on at most 6 shots (2 guns plus combi on the sarge). At least on a big blob of Black Knights or Inceptors or even Hellblasters it makes sense.

Currently Meltas get the nod mostly because they can spike very high on damage (especially in half range or less). Plasma, even buffed, doesn't do as much unless you have a lot of it.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Vulshra wrote:
Curious on your thoughts on meltaguns vs plasma guns on bike squads. I would think WotDA (plus general theming) and range would make plasma the choice, but I see most people running meltaguns

Weapons from the Dark Age is woefully inefficient on just a bike squad; you're spending 2CP to increase the damage on at most 6 shots (2 guns plus combi on the sarge). At least on a big blob of Black Knights or Inceptors or even Hellblasters it makes sense.

Currently Meltas get the nod mostly because they can spike very high on damage (especially in half range or less). Plasma, even buffed, doesn't do as much unless you have a lot of it.

Makes sense. I'm building out a quasi dreadwing take on ravenwing (i.e., more firepower than is reasonable), so I'm trying to optimize that. My concern is the ability to handle massed heavy infantry, as it is half the shots, but I suppose 10 multi meltas, 7 meltas, and 8 bks is probably enough to handle that

 ZergSmasher wrote:

It's 9 from the detachments, but then I spend 3 more on extra traits/relics.

AH. I didn't read the list as closely as I should have. My bad. This thread get me to build an Interrogator Chaplain with the things. DW Smash Chaplain incoming!

So, with the new Balance Dataslate, it looks like one of our good tricks is now gone, that being protecting a Ravenwing Talonmaster with a hidden Deathwing Command Squad. However, we now get the new Armor of Contempt rule, which actually makes our regular Terminators (and Relic ones) even more scary (although it does nothing whatsoever for Deathwing Knights). AoC actually makes Ravenwing a little better as well, as AP1/2 weapons were a major Achilles' heel of theirs IMO. Ravenwing Black Knights are looking real interesting between this and the recent points drop.

It certainly ends one of our more distasteful tactics! Although I own three Talonmasters and use plenty of Deathwing Command Squads, I never used that combo because I want to be able to have a game in the future with my opponents!

It does seem that normal Terminators are in a better place. Lightning Claw Deathwing might be an even better pick now.

Talonmasters will struggle against power armour foes now - I usually bring them for crowd control but it is something to consider. High AP will be very important now if we see more power armour opponents on the field. Plasma Inceptors stay good for us and I concur that Black Knights will be more useful. Let's not get crazy, but maybe even Hellblasters will see the table.

Armor of Contempt rule is leterally a free stormshield
40 termies with azzy look very strong

A Dark Angel player won a tourney this weekend with two 10 man Deathwing Knights squads and two 10 man Relic Terminators with combi-bolter and lightning claw backed up by three characters.

The DW Knights would not have benefited from AoC, but they would still hit real hard while the Relic Termies hold objectives, benefiting from AoC.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
A Dark Angel player won a tourney this weekend with two 10 man Deathwing Knights squads and two 10 man Relic Terminators with combi-bolter and lightning claw backed up by three characters.

The DW Knights would not have benefited from AoC, but they would still hit real hard while the Relic Termies hold objectives, benefiting from AoC.

While DW Knights don't benefit from AoC, they didn't exactly get weaker either other than the fact that some of their prey will benefit from it. I still wonder if they are a bit too expensive, but clearly somebody has figured out how to make them work well, so kudos to them! What three characters did they have backing them up? If I had to guess, I'd say an Interrogator-Chaplain, a Librarian, and a Ravenwing Apothecary, but I could very easily be wrong. The Ancient is still a good take for the sweet -1 damage (lets one squad pretend to be Death Guard for a turn).

 ZergSmasher wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
A Dark Angel player won a tourney this weekend with two 10 man Deathwing Knights squads and two 10 man Relic Terminators with combi-bolter and lightning claw backed up by three characters.

The DW Knights would not have benefited from AoC, but they would still hit real hard while the Relic Termies hold objectives, benefiting from AoC.

While DW Knights don't benefit from AoC, they didn't exactly get weaker either other than the fact that some of their prey will benefit from it. I still wonder if they are a bit too expensive, but clearly somebody has figured out how to make them work well, so kudos to them! What three characters did they have backing them up? If I had to guess, I'd say an Interrogator-Chaplain, a Librarian, and a Ravenwing Apothecary, but I could very easily be wrong. The Ancient is still a good take for the sweet -1 damage (lets one squad pretend to be Death Guard for a turn).

Just watched Auspex Tactics video about this list and you sir are 3 for 3 on correct guesses for characters.

I dont own any relic termies yet, but now I'm certainly gonna get some, if only to add some different looking models to my force.

Still having great success with my Dark Talon and considering getting a second.

Anyone ever used the nephilim? looks kinda meh?

Nephilim is pretty meh, and has only gotten worse with both the proliferation of -1 damage (really hurts its 2-damage guns) and now the advent of Armor of Contempt (which hurts AP-1 weapons the most). Dark Talon's guns are basically unaffected since the Hurricane Bolters are AP0 and the Rift Cannon deals damage as mortal wounds. It's probably only getting better as time goes on. AoC makes it a bit sturdier once the opponent decides to try to knock it down. On the subject of Relic Terminators, I think those are fast becoming a lot of Marine armies' bread and butter, as they really benefit from AoC and they are cheap. Honestly the thing that surprises me the most in that tournament-winning list (which I saw the full content of on Goonhammer) is the fact that the guy took 2 10-man Deathwing Knight squads. Those don't benefit from AoC at all, and in fact it can blunt their impact vs. other Marine armies. Plus they are expensive; I would have expected more regular Termies since they are ObSec and way cheaper. I guess that shows what I know!