Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Gibblets wrote:
Is there any good Ravenwing list? I've got some blacknights some bikes and too many landspeeders (which are awful with how terrain heavy my tables are.)

Suicide landspeeders has play imo. Either HB or MM then just go. Flatout out every turn and harass.

what do you think of having the lion use 6 inch intervention on a judicair then you have fight first on the lion and fight last? it's 75 points of unchangeable lion

Played a practice game with The Lion yesterday. He really does have a glass jaw and needs to have a solid retinue with him at all times. Obviously in 10th it might be different but here in the waning days of 9th he can't really take a hit. I do like his reroll aura pretty well, and the threat of a big out-of-phase heroic intervention with a Deathwing brick can really mess with your opponent's head. I'm going to be running Lion in a tournament in about three weeks, so hopefully I can get some more practice to get the most out of him.

I was not able to get my hands on the Lion, but in the games at my FLGS where folks have played with him he usually dies Turn 2 while taking a lot of attention. Yesterday he went down to MW spam.

I played in one local tourney and closed out a League with Dark Angels in the post-balance slate twilight days of 9th Ed. To see how things would go I took a Deathwing-heavy force to the tourney and I certainly noticed the loss of the real part of Inner Circle. Definitely felt it against the Astra Militarum tank list!

Looking back on the edition I suppose it was an overall good time to be a Son of the Lion, certainly better than our experience for most of 8th. Some of our power was based, however, on some underlying design problems with 9th and our fortunes rose and fell as the developers tried to figure out how to balance Secondaries.

When the Index came out with the new 9th Ed Space Marine Codex we did just fine, gaining the all-important Inner Circle buff to Deathwing. Our Codex added two great Secondaries and for a bit we were really strong. Ravenwing could count on Death on the Wind, while Deathwing could lean into Oaths of Moment, Stubborn Defiance and To the Last to often max out Secondaries in a mostly passive manner. Good for wins, not so great for the overall play experience of all involved.

Nephilim was a down time for the Dark Angels, with Stubborn Defiance effectively capped at 10 for Deathwing lists and Too the Last removed.

The Arks of Omen catapulted us to the top again, based mainly on changes to Doctrine and the revamped Codex Warfare Secondary. The Balance Dataslate brought the twin nerf hammers to Codex Warfare and Inner Circle. Ravenwing still had some play, but the correction was real. At least we got the new Azrael and Lion.

We'll see what 10th Edition brings - at least we know we will be distinct. The previews have not given us the full picture, but it would seem that Deathwing will still feature with the one datasheet shown (Deathwing Command Squad). Perhaps the reigning-in of AP will mean that Terminators have play even without Inner Circle/permanent Transhuman. Grim Resolve in 10th looks useful for being able to score points if not incredibly powerful.

Well lion won't be easy to take down at least. Mw spam is about only way that reliably works.

tneva82 wrote:
Well lion won't be easy to take down at least. Mw spam is about only way that reliably works.

True! The week prior (while I was playing on the adjacent table) the Lion went down to pretty much an entire Sisters army worth of shooting on Turn 2. Not sure if any single models are going to survive that without a wound cap.

He is powerful, but he is not like Celestine who can be flung at the enemy like a distraction Carnifex that has to be killed twice.

Won’t get a chance to use the Lion in 9th, so this I should rather academic for me. Keen to see Azrael’s rules for 10th. I tried other leaders in 9th, but I kept coming back to Azrael!

I played a practice game with Lion the other day and he basically one-rounded Magnus (Magnus had lost 3 wounds in the previous turn). It was definitely fun to have him square off against another Primarch, and I did win the game pretty handily too, but that had more to do with the relative inexperience of my opponent than to Lion being especially good. I'll be running the same list this weekend, so we'll see how he does in a competitive setting.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I played a practice game with Lion the other day and he basically one-rounded Magnus (Magnus had lost 3 wounds in the previous turn). It was definitely fun to have him square off against another Primarch, and I did win the game pretty handily too, but that had more to do with the relative inexperience of my opponent than to Lion being especially good. I'll be running the same list this weekend, so we'll see how he does in a competitive setting.

Good luck! Make us proud closing out the edition!

In my final league game I had an old-school 8th Edition Hellblaster Deathball with new Azrael and an Ancient at the centre but with the 9th Ed special sauce of an Apothecary to resurrect folks. I had taken variations of this through the league, initially leaning into the initial Arks of Omen Codex Warfare Secondary. With the change to that I had to find new Secondaries but it had been kinda fun to Hellblast again so I stuck with them.

As luck would have it my final game was against Knights and the eye-watering firepower of Heavy Hellblasters (Str 9 is nice) with Azrael (backed by some Eradicators and Attack Bikes with Multi-Meltas) came through. Azrael even took the last two wounds off a Knight with his gun in a stunning reversal of the normal "new model syndrome."

The Lion's rules in 10th look good - a 3+ Invul will make him more survivable. Stealing CPs in 10th also looks very good. Its too bad he is a Monster so cannot hitch a ride in a Land Raider or something (at least in 9th). You'd think the Techmarines could make something for him?

"Nah, its cool guys. I prefer walking after that long nap. Need to stretch my legs."

Can any DA player give me some positive feedback about our Veterans, that were just cut from the index. I have a squad of 5 with plasma guns and stormshields, and I honestly don't know what to do with them right now. Removing the guns and turn them into Vanguard vets doesn't look tempting. The easy way seemed to turn them into a Command Squad with some minor conversions, but for some reason, GW decided that Command Squads can have any gun they want, except plasma guns. Plasma pistols, yes. Plasma cannons, yes. Plasma guns... eh... nope.
Or will this get faq:ed?

Agusto wrote:
Can any DA player give me some positive feedback about our Veterans, that were just cut from the index. I have a squad of 5 with plasma guns and stormshields, and I honestly don't know what to do with them right now. Removing the guns and turn them into Vanguard vets doesn't look tempting. The easy way seemed to turn them into a Command Squad with some minor conversions, but for some reason, GW decided that Command Squads can have any gun they want, except plasma guns. Plasma pistols, yes. Plasma cannons, yes. Plasma guns... eh... nope.
Or will this get faq:ed?

I wouldn’t remodel just yet. The weapon profiles for the Index Command Squad has Plasmagun stats listed, so I think this could be a typo?

We might see more units when the actual codex drops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So time for some hot-takes about Dark Angels in 10th Edition...

General Characters.

Azrael's role in an army has certainly changed. I think he will have play, but maybe not as a auto-include. He still provides a very useful CP bonus, especially in CP-starved 10th Ed. The days of a bubble of Invul saves and re-rolls are over, though, in 10th Ed. He cannot join the full range of squads - none of the Deathwing squads nor a Command Squad. He could fit in well with a Hellblaster Squad, giving them an Invul and boosting their firepower with Sustained Hits. His gun pairs well with them as well - same range and with Anti-Infantry 4+ he will be dealing out some Mortal Wounds in shooting. If you want to use him in melee then he can go with Bladeguard, but they have already have an Invul. A big squad of Assault Intercessors might make a good unit to join? I will try him first with Hellblasters - some things never change...

Ezekiel is quite different from 9th. He won't be leading Deathwing armies, at least if he doesn't want to get shot off the board. As someone said in the News and Rumours thread, he could go well with Vanguard Veterans.

Lazarus could go well with Bladeguard, allowing them to fight on death. I expect him to cost less than Azrael.

Deathwing.

Belial can join the range of Deathwing Squads, including the Deathwing Command Squad that looks like quite the swiss-army knife. Could be a good objective-domination unit with Belial there to handle scary characters - he also allows his unit to have Precision Hits on Critical Hits (still trying to figure these things out, but his unit should be able to sneak some hits in against characters). He has a hilarious damage rebound rule that will only come up when he gets hit but it could be impactful. Perhaps Belial will see more play than in 9th.

Deathwing Squads look good - not as tough as the pre-nerf Deathwing from 9th but with a variety of load-outs. They benefit further from Oath of Moment, so their damage output should be good. I think most DA lists will benefit from at least one squad.

Deathwing Knights have built-in damage reduction, which can be really important. I assume we are missing something from the core rules (like a glossary/appendix) that indicates that Characteristics cannot be modified below 1. Otherwise they would be permanently immune to D1 weapons, which seems off...Their maces will be less devastating against vehicles, but they will clear out elite infantry. I think they will be capable of independent operations in 10th.

Ravenwing

Sammael allows the unit he leads to advance, shoot and charge which is great. He will probably lead a maxed-out Ravenwing Command Squad which contains the Ravenwing Apothecary who will no longer roam the battlefield healing random squads.

The Talonmaster is still a gun-boat, but he can only really operate safety around bikes and hover-vehicles. Makes sense, but another adjustment for 8th/9th edition veterans.

The Black Knights have good melee, but the Hazardous rule will make it unlikely that we will overchange their Plasma Talons, even in a Command Squad with an Apothecary.

Early days, but with the Index I think we'll see mixed lists. What we won't see is a few characters acting alone that don't really belong with their army (like Talonmasters and Ravenwing Apothecaries supporting Deathwing lists in 9th). No strats giving plasma more damage. Oh well. Still digesting the listed Strats without actual game-play context. Grim Retribution looks situational, but anytime you can inflict damage in the enemy's phase is a good time.

I'd say the Azrael Hellblaster brick is back in style. Maybe take a second block of them with a Primaris Librarian so that there are now two big bricks of plasma death with 4++ saves running around causing havoc. Of course, a better use for said Librarian might be attaching him to a Desolation Squad instead...

Talking of modeling veterans, I've actually been thinking of making some Vanguard Vets on foot, using robed bodies and all the spare weapons from all the Ravenwing Black Knight kits I've gotten over the years. Ruleswise, heirloom weapons are all the same, so why not? Not sure if VanVets are worth taking over some of our other good melee options though, so it might not be worth the effort. Then again, Ezekiel does need a good retinue to benefit from his +1 attack buff so...

I'll add to your talk about characters as well, and mention that The Lion might well be an auto-include as long as the points aren't insane for him. He's gonna be incredibly frustrating for opponents to take down, and although he gets less swings than in 9th he still hits like a freight train and fights first even if he gets charged.

Now, for my thoughts on the units that are coming in the Leviathan box set and how Dark Angels might make use of them:
Terminator Captain: Deathwing can make use of him, but it might be better to just use Belial instead as his abilities are pretty spicy. Nothing saying we can't use both and have them each lead a unit though. Rerolling charges could be pretty handy on a unit of Deathwing Knights.
Terminator Librarian: Another solid Terminator squad leader; Sustained Hits is a nice ability to have on a squad that has both ranged and melee weapons.
Lieutenant with Combi-weapon: This guy is an oddball; I don't think he's competitive, although getting to reroll 1's to wound can come in handy if we need to clear an objective.
Apothecary Biologis: This guy seems like too much fun not to at least try out. I think Aggressors are the ideal unit to pair with him, as his ability is keyed to melee and they have better melee than either of the other two Gravis units. Maybe attach a Gravis Captain to the unit as well, and then kill something off an objective and camp it for the rest of the game with your now absurdly high OC value. A unit of 6 Aggressors plus the Biologis and Captain will even fit in a Land Raider Crusader so you can bring the party to your opponent.
Infernus Squad: Not sure what character would pair best with this unit if any; points will tell if these are good or not but forcing Battleshock tests could be handy.
Terminator Squad: We've got better Terminators already, but these are fine I guess. Belial would rather lead a DWCS, but a squad of these with their Assault Cannon could benefit from the aforementioned Librarian's Sustained Hits buff.
Sternguard Veteran Squad: I like these a lot; I think I like the rifles over the combis, but there's something to be said for having Anti-Infantry 4+ combined with Devastating Wounds, so I could be way off. The mixed squad in the box probably isn't optimal by itself though.
Ballistus Dreadnought: A solid long-range anti-vehicle platform is something we can make use of, especially if Knights and their ilk become popular. This could be one of the better sources of such firepower, so it's definitely worth trying.