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TangoTwoBravo wrote: Harlies on foot are indeed squishy if you throw enough shots. If you really think that Invuls are not a big deal for the Harlequin army, though, try running your Jetbikes and Clowncars without the 4++ (and ability to get to a 3++ for the bikes) and tell me how it goes.
Loughs in windriders...
Indeed...Trying to remember the last time I faced a Windrider. Or a Hellion.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
Karol wrote:They eldar, they are the same race. There is not enough time passed between the fall and the creation of the scar, to make either eldar group no longer considered the same race. They all have the same biology, and can inter breed. A space marine couldn't breed with a human even if he wanted to, which they seem to not want to.
10,000 years is more than enough time to create a new race. We have at least one new major race in the last 500 years here on Earth. It might not be enough to let another specie to naturally evolve, but that depends on other environmental factors. The Drukhari have not been relying on natural methods to make adjustments, either. Some are in to gene-splicing, others are in to chemical enhancements, and those can have an affect over the course of generations. Of course, Eldar generations are longer than Human, but those factors still exist.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Harlies on foot are indeed squishy if you throw enough shots. If you really think that Invuls are not a big deal for the Harlequin army, though, try running your Jetbikes and Clowncars without the 4++ (and ability to get to a 3++ for the bikes) and tell me how it goes.
im not saying the invuln has no say in their playability, just that i think their mobility and punch come first.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Harlies on foot are indeed squishy if you throw enough shots. If you really think that Invuls are not a big deal for the Harlequin army, though, try running your Jetbikes and Clowncars without the 4++ (and ability to get to a 3++ for the bikes) and tell me how it goes.
im not saying the invuln has no say in their playability, just that i think their mobility and punch come first.
No argument from me that they have great mobility and punch! I don't play Harlies, but I certainly play against them. They have the holy trinity of mobility, firepower and protection. That protection is based on their 4++ (plus some other shenanigans). Take that away and they are lost like tears in rain.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
Insectum7 wrote: Screen the character, use indirect fire and/or Drop Pods to strike first?
Yes, that's what they do their second time playing Harlies.
I do think marines lists have to change to deal with the evolving threats. You'd think tremor shells ( DG ignores it, but still ) or suppression fire should be more popular given the way other lists look. Should be interesting to see once COVID is over.
I mean. . . that's sorta the name of the game, practically. Learn what the opposing armies can do and then build your lists with contingencies for it.
Karol wrote:They eldar, they are the same race. There is not enough time passed between the fall and the creation of the scar, to make either eldar group no longer considered the same race. They all have the same biology, and can inter breed. A space marine couldn't breed with a human even if he wanted to, which they seem to not want to.
10,000 years is more than enough time to create a new race. We have at least one new major race in the last 500 years here on Earth.
Karol wrote:They eldar, they are the same race. There is not enough time passed between the fall and the creation of the scar, to make either eldar group no longer considered the same race. They all have the same biology, and can inter breed. A space marine couldn't breed with a human even if he wanted to, which they seem to not want to.
10,000 years is more than enough time to create a new race. We have at least one new major race in the last 500 years here on Earth.
Eh?
The PC Master Race?
The combination of the American Tribal and European commonly known as Hispanic or Latino. The opening of the Americas to colonization by Europeans has mixed the gene pools around a bit. The most notable of which are the Hispanics (though, many tend to downplay the tribal part, hence the European reference in the name).
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
I think you define a race as separate when the mixed sons are sterile (like horses, donkeys an zebras).
I'm ignoring the delirious above over the human races that will require either an additional courses (if due to ignorance) or a straight up ban (if by convinctions)
I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it.
In view of their boost, larger footslogging units would be an option.
Thoughts?
They are a bit more viable defending an objective.
I don't think what we have seen changes much, but I'm biased as the whole point of Kabalites (and Drukhari as a whole) to me is infantry in open-topped transports.
In view of their boost, larger footslogging units would be an option.
Thoughts?
They are a bit more viable defending an objective.
I don't think what we have seen changes much, but I'm biased as the whole point of Kabalites (and Drukhari as a whole) to me is infantry in open-topped transports.
Seconded.
Successful Kabal armies should still focus on light and lightening-fast vehicles.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
harlies with a 4++ still die faster than marines with a 3+ save.... Its just that they have the punch, mobility and tricks to make their squishiness work.
Not when most weapons come with AP, and the +3sv is never a +3sv one.
10,000 years is more than enough time to create a new race. We have at least one new major race in the last 500 years here on Earth. It might not be enough to let another specie to naturally evolve, but that depends on other environmental factors. The Drukhari have not been relying on natural methods to make adjustments, either. Some are in to gene-splicing, others are in to chemical enhancements, and those can have an affect over the course of generations. Of course, Eldar generations are longer than Human, but those factors still exist.
Well that is interesting, but you guys in US use strange definition what a race is. Because here, where I go to school, humans still have one race. Not one new every 500y. Because if that was true, my country that has history of over 300y, would be populated by bucket loads of different races of humans.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/14 09:57:26
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Canadian 5th wrote: How many games do they lose from rolling 75% of their saves as 3's or worse? With a 4++ the rolls are equally likely to go badly as they are to go well and even for a 3++ with the number of dice rolled in an average game the odds of any given unit 'getting hot' for an entire game are low. Even if it does happen play it out and expect different luck the next game.
Yes, but as people have pointed out, this matters less because Harlequin's speed allows them to set the terms of engagement. If you can move where you want, shoot what you want, kill what average dice say so, tie stuff up with charges and repeat - the 4++ doesn't matter as much. Because you are winning.
But sometimes in a dice game, you bounce.
So then having the ability to make your opponent bounce in turn comes up. As pointed out this can happen to anyone - but if you get above average luck on a 4++/3++ - which isn't that unlikely - it can have a big effect. Yes, the odds are equally there to fail all your 4++ saves - but this matters less because of the first paragraph.
Basically "I get average to good luck when attacking"->"I probably just win."
"I get bad luck"->"my opponent also gets bad luck"->"I probably still go on to win".
Its only "I get bad luck"->"my opponent gets good luck"->"I lose".
The difference with say GSC is that to win, usually you require good luck *and* your opponent to have bad luck. Any other combination see's you lose. So the odds of you winning are inevitably much lower. There will after all also be games where despite all their various defences, a Harlequin player see's a big chunk of Starweavers/Skyweavers shot off the board turn one. But this is probably sufficiently rare not to have a significant impact on overall Harlequin win rates and tournament performance.
How to express this mathematically is difficult but its a phenomenon that exists.
===
On Eldar. I think modern fluff treats all Eldar as a single unified species, and the various groups are subcultures that individuals are relatively easily able to move between. I.E. someone on a Craftworld can decide to become a Ranger, go hang out with Exodites, get a bit bored of that, wind up in Commoragh, sign on with a Kabal, think this has all got a bit too metal and return to their Craftworld. This doesn't totally make sense given the supposed physiological differences, especially with regard to psychic abilities, but the fluff on that may be evolving from "this was suppressed to the point of atrophy" in Dark Eldar to "Dark Eldar Don't Do Psychic cos Vect says Slaanesh is scary and shut up we don't want to make new models".
Also CWE are meant to be a declining race with miniscule birth rates, whereas DE are a constantly resurrecting vampire-aristocracy backed by potentially infinite hordes of vat-born (who can also be resurrected if lucky/successful). Which raises the question of why CWE don't invest in this technology to fix their own population problems - but presumably its too edgy and sort of messes with the whole "declining race on edge of extinction" fluff.
Also CWE are meant to be a declining race with miniscule birth rates, whereas DE are a constantly resurrecting vampire-aristocracy backed by potentially infinite hordes of vat-born (who can also be resurrected if lucky/successful). Which raises the question of why CWE don't invest in this technology to fix their own population problems - but presumably its too edgy and sort of messes with the whole "declining race on edge of extinction" fluff.
For the same reason that they don't just 'get busy'; they don't have enough soulstones to protect a larger population.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/14 11:12:23
Being the same species or not is irrelevant. The imperium has how many distinct armies with their own unique weapons units and tactics? Who are all in the same species, empire and cross over all the time?
The gap between craftworlds is bigger than imperial worlds as they are all sovereign nations. A citizen of ulthwe doesn't have the right to do whatever they want on saim Hann, but an imperial citizen is an imperial citizen no matter what planet they travelled to.
Ergo, as per the initial reason this argument started, craftworlds and the drukhari can have completely different weapons with their own unique rules.
harlies with a 4++ still die faster than marines with a 3+ save.... Its just that they have the punch, mobility and tricks to make their squishiness work.
Not when most weapons come with AP, and the +3sv is never a +3sv one.
most weapons come with ap? thats news to me.
And even then, for marines to be on the same save as quins, they need to be out of cover and facing ap -1 at least. Quins get a 4++ even if theyre in cover and getting shot by ap-0.
And even after that, Quins have less toughness and wounds than marines.
I'm not hating marines BTW, just comparing the two. Youre free to complain about quins, but you gotta complain about the real OP part, not the invuln.
harlies with a 4++ still die faster than marines with a 3+ save.... Its just that they have the punch, mobility and tricks to make their squishiness work.
Not when most weapons come with AP, and the +3sv is never a +3sv one.
most weapons come with ap? thats news to me.
And even then, for marines to be on the same save as quins, they need to be out of cover and facing ap -1 at least. Quins get a 4++ even if theyre in cover and getting shot by ap-0.
And even after that, Quins have less toughness and wounds than marines.
I'm not hating marines BTW, just comparing the two. Youre free to complain about quins, but you gotta complain about the real OP part, not the invuln.
To be fair, the -1 wound aura Harlies have access to is pretty good on evening out the Toughness difference.
The wound count, though... Yeah, hard to get around that. And you can always snipe the Shadowseer.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
harlies with a 4++ still die faster than marines with a 3+ save.... Its just that they have the punch, mobility and tricks to make their squishiness work.
Not when most weapons come with AP, and the +3sv is never a +3sv one.
most weapons come with ap? thats news to me.
And even then, for marines to be on the same save as quins, they need to be out of cover and facing ap -1 at least. Quins get a 4++ even if theyre in cover and getting shot by ap-0.
And even after that, Quins have less toughness and wounds than marines.
I'm not hating marines BTW, just comparing the two. Youre free to complain about quins, but you gotta complain about the real OP part, not the invuln.
To be fair, the -1 wound aura Harlies have access to is pretty good on evening out the Toughness difference.
The wound count, though... Yeah, hard to get around that. And you can always snipe the Shadowseer.
Most Snipers still aren't good
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
harlies with a 4++ still die faster than marines with a 3+ save.... Its just that they have the punch, mobility and tricks to make their squishiness work.
Not when most weapons come with AP, and the +3sv is never a +3sv one.
most weapons come with ap? thats news to me.
And even then, for marines to be on the same save as quins, they need to be out of cover and facing ap -1 at least. Quins get a 4++ even if theyre in cover and getting shot by ap-0.
And even after that, Quins have less toughness and wounds than marines.
I'm not hating marines BTW, just comparing the two. Youre free to complain about quins, but you gotta complain about the real OP part, not the invuln.
To be fair, the -1 wound aura Harlies have access to is pretty good on evening out the Toughness difference.
The wound count, though... Yeah, hard to get around that. And you can always snipe the Shadowseer.
Most Snipers still aren't good
So just turn the -1 to wound aura off. And then feed the clowns bolters, lots of bolters. And maybe a couple chaincannons for good measure.
Well that is interesting, but you guys in US use strange definition what a race is. Because here, where I go to school, humans still have one race. Not one new every 500y. Because if that was true, my country that has history of over 300y, would be populated by bucket loads of different races of humans.
The fall of the eldar happened in 30k. Thats 10 000 years of evolution that could happen.
Combine that with the stark differences between Eldar and Deldar and yes, evolution is very well possible.
Deldar lost their psychic abilties, Eldar are still a psychic race. Both were psychic 10k years ago.
There is more differences between Eldar and Deldar than between Humans and Space marines
Well that is interesting, but you guys in US use strange definition what a race is. Because here, where I go to school, humans still have one race. Not one new every 500y. Because if that was true, my country that has history of over 300y, would be populated by bucket loads of different races of humans.
The fall of the eldar happened in 30k. Thats 10 000 years of evolution that could happen.
Combine that with the stark differences between Eldar and Deldar and yes, evolution is very well possible.
Deldar lost their psychic abilties, Eldar are still a psychic race. Both were psychic 10k years ago.
There is more differences between Eldar and Deldar than between Humans and Space marines
I don't think that the Drukhari are very different physically from the Asuryani, nor have the former have ceased completely to be a psychic race. Their society suppresses the development and use of psychic powers, and so that ability has atrophied as a whole.
Their technologies have always been somewhat different (what might be found in an Aeldari city vs what refugees could take with them as they fled the collapse of their civilization), but the Drukhari's lack of psychic powers also forced them to adapt further; no wraithbone or psycho-technical engineering.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
The homo sapiente is somewhere between 300k or 100k years old. And more or less between 15k to 5k years ago started to radically change (even more I mean) the surrounding environment, diet and lifestyle. We're still the same, and compared with Eldar we breed like rabbit (I don't know, maybe 100x faster?)
10k is literally nothing for them, even when you consider genes splitting and such. On a "natural" basis I except Eldar to evolve on a scale of at least a million years.
IF even they could evolve at all. Since they are a project of the Ancient Ones, I wouldn't be surprised if Eldar do not randomly mutate in order to evolve but rather are codified within a preselected number of variations. Would probably make more sense (especially when you consider that the Park were the other tools, and they evolve by external in influences)
I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it.
I think we need to be careful with terminology her. With regard to (biological) evolution, it may be worth noting that it's not automatic.
That is to say, the fact that Species A has been around for 10,000 years and Species B has been around for 100,000 years doesn't automatically follow that Species B will be "more evolved" than Species A.
This is because evolution is based on selection pressures, which have to be realised in terms of "more evolved" members of the species having a disproportionally high number of surviving descendants.
However, just to consider humans, we have developed all manner of technology to keep sick, injured and deformed people alive (ones who would almost certainly die if they were forced to fend for themselves). Similarly, we have all manner of technology to allow for people to have children in spite of age, illness etc. Not to mention people willing to be partners with such individuals and bear their children (again, in contrast to most animals, where it tends to be the 'stronger' or healthier animals that are the most successful in finding mates and breeding with them).
On top of this, humans have become exceptionally good at controlling their environments, such that they can survive even in remote and inhospitable places.
Finally, the ability to move around the globe means that the potential breeding population is *massive* (whereas evolution in the animal kingdom is typically most noticeable with isolated species).
Put simply, there just aren't enough selection pressures for humans to evolve in any meaningful way.
Oh, I should also add that evolution is often misunderstood. In spite of what X-Men and the like are always claiming, there is no "next stage" or "final stage" of evolution. Evolution is based entirely on how well a given species has adapted to their current environment. It doesn't mean that they will be objectively better at fighting than a "less evolved" species, let alone when you consider the impact of technology.
Now, it's possible a species could gradually alter their overall biology by, for example, culling sick/defective individuals or maybe selecting for some desired trait (or with genetic engineering, if they have that technology). However, these would be eugenics, selective-breeding or genetic engineering - not evolution.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
vipoid wrote: Now, it's possible a species could gradually alter their overall biology by, for example, culling sick/defective individuals or maybe selecting for some desired trait (or with genetic engineering, if they have that technology). However, these would be eugenics, selective-breeding or genetic engineering - not evolution.
Still the matter of changes happening between the several groups of Eldar, one of which is doing exotic things to their generation, is something to be recognized. While their generations are farther apart, the Exodites is dealing with pressures of a variety of planets, while the Craftworlders are basically in an otherwise stagnant environment, and Drukhari are always pushing genetic modification and chemical enhancements. Those types of things will tell across generations. They may not be notable for one unfamiliar with the groups, and I doubt we'd be looking at sufficient changes for them to be classified as different species, but the differences would be notable to each other at least.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
In view of their boost, larger footslogging units would be an option.
Thoughts?
Kind of depends. I very occasionally try deepstriking maxed out squads of kabalites. Currently, you can get 4 darklight shots (5 counting a blast pistol) into a single squad that then has 15 ablative wounds that can each contribute a couple of poison shots. If Hunt From the Shadows remains unchanged, those ablative wounds could be rocking 2+ saves in cover, and they'll suddenly have twice the attacks in melee. So something like that might become more viable rather than purely being "cute." I probably wouldn't count on warriors to hug objectives in the backfield just because of a 4+ save though. They'd still have the same problems dire avengers do when they try that.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Wyldhunt wrote: Kind of depends. I very occasionally try deepstriking maxed out squads of kabalites. Currently, you can get 4 darklight shots (5 counting a blast pistol) into a single squad that then has 15 ablative wounds that can each contribute a couple of poison shots. If Hunt From the Shadows remains unchanged, those ablative wounds could be rocking 2+ saves in cover, and they'll suddenly have twice the attacks in melee. So something like that might become more viable rather than purely being "cute." I probably wouldn't count on warriors to hug objectives in the backfield just because of a 4+ save though. They'd still have the same problems dire avengers do when they try that.
At 8 points a go you would be getting quite a few more bodies than Dire Avengers.
I think it depends on special rules/synergies, will power from pain be changed (almost certainly) and so on.
If kabalites can be made into a half-way credible melee threat then I think masses of them could be interesting.
But then if they do have that melee ability, it raises questions for what Wyches/Wracks look like.
Insectum7 wrote: Screen the character, use indirect fire and/or Drop Pods to strike first?
Yes, that's what they do their second time playing Harlies.
I do think marines lists have to change to deal with the evolving threats. You'd think tremor shells ( DG ignores it, but still ) or suppression fire should be more popular given the way other lists look. Should be interesting to see once COVID is over.
I mean. . . that's sorta the name of the game, practically. Learn what the opposing armies can do and then build your lists with contingencies for it.
Karol wrote:They eldar, they are the same race. There is not enough time passed between the fall and the creation of the scar, to make either eldar group no longer considered the same race. They all have the same biology, and can inter breed. A space marine couldn't breed with a human even if he wanted to, which they seem to not want to.
10,000 years is more than enough time to create a new race. We have at least one new major race in the last 500 years here on Earth.
Eh?
The PC Master Race?
We come out with a new race pretty much any time we have a new underclass to hate on, it's like iphones. "70% native american and 30% european mixed together is a race now, we've just come out with it, very exciting, to be extra confusing we're going to also call this one 'latin' despite the fact that it's about as close geographically to the location of the last one we called latin as China is to the USA."
Wyldhunt wrote: Kind of depends. I very occasionally try deepstriking maxed out squads of kabalites. Currently, you can get 4 darklight shots (5 counting a blast pistol) into a single squad that then has 15 ablative wounds that can each contribute a couple of poison shots. If Hunt From the Shadows remains unchanged, those ablative wounds could be rocking 2+ saves in cover, and they'll suddenly have twice the attacks in melee. So something like that might become more viable rather than purely being "cute." I probably wouldn't count on warriors to hug objectives in the backfield just because of a 4+ save though. They'd still have the same problems dire avengers do when they try that.
At 8 points a go you would be getting quite a few more bodies than Dire Avengers.
I think it depends on special rules/synergies, will power from pain be changed (almost certainly) and so on.
If kabalites can be made into a half-way credible melee threat then I think masses of them could be interesting.
But then if they do have that melee ability, it raises questions for what Wyches/Wracks look like.
I'm guessing Wracks are going to be significantly less potent than they are now given their new 8ppm price tag. Would not be surprised to see covens lose their invuln saves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 12:31:45
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Eldar- 4436 pts
