Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Tiberias wrote:
I'm honestly very happy for dark eldar players, most things I've heard and seen from the new codex seem really cool and useable.

I'm curious though. What's the final verdict on the new lelith hesperax? Is she worth fielding against anything other than GEQ?

Not really worth it. She's not terrible per se, though putting her against characters seems to be a waste of time, it's just that the standard Succubus is 30pts cheaper and vastly more dangerous.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
I'm honestly very happy for dark eldar players, most things I've heard and seen from the new codex seem really cool and useable.

I'm curious though. What's the final verdict on the new lelith hesperax? Is she worth fielding against anything other than GEQ?

She is very tricksy, and is certainly better than she appeared at first glance. The real question is whether she is better that the other available (and excellent) Succubus options, of which there are surprisingly many.

Lelith might see use, but not until after the other Master Succubus slots are used up. I'd probably just proxy her as a regular Succubus unless I was after multiple detachments of wyches.

Regular succubus also looks a great deal better!

Yeah, I mean, 99% of the time when you have one of those "The Best Of The Best X HQ" special character units, you can usually find some combo of trait and relic to give the generic version of them to make them more effective.

The named HQs you see people actually using are the ones that don't have a generic customizable version, that bring something totally unique and wacky to the table like your Ghazghkulls your Nightbringers your Silent Kings. In the dark eldar's case that's Drazar. There's no generic Incubi HQ you can take in every subfaction (sadly), he does his own unique distinct thing, people will use him.

How often do you see competitive players taking Cato sicarius instead of a captain, Shrike instead of a chapter master, Tor Garadon or whatever the yellow fattie character was named instead of a captain, Eldrad instead of a Farseer, etc etc etc.

You saw Eldradnow and then; the only reason you didn't see him every game was he didn't have a jetbike and his craftworld often wasn't the best choice. But again to reinforce your point that's because there is no way to buff a Farseer's psychic capabilities.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, I mean, 99% of the time when you have one of those "The Best Of The Best X HQ" special character units, you can usually find some combo of trait and relic to give the generic version of them to make them more effective.

The named HQs you see people actually using are the ones that don't have a generic customizable version, that bring something totally unique and wacky to the table like your Ghazghkulls your Nightbringers your Silent Kings. In the dark eldar's case that's Drazar. There's no generic Incubi HQ you can take in every subfaction (sadly), he does his own unique distinct thing, people will use him.

How often do you see competitive players taking Cato sicarius instead of a captain, Shrike instead of a chapter master, Tor Garadon or whatever the yellow fattie character was named instead of a captain, Eldrad instead of a Farseer, etc etc etc.

Anyone running Ulthwe is taking Eldrad, he's better than a normal Farseer. Craftworlds problem is that their named craftworld traits are all rubbish so everyones using custom triats as the only way to stay remotely competitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
You saw Eldradnow and then; the only reason you didn't see him every game was he didn't have a jetbike and his craftworld often wasn't the best choice. But again to reinforce your point that's because there is no way to buff a Farseer's psychic capabilities.

There is but it's from strats and Psychic powers so they work just as well on Eldrad as any other Farseer.

the_scotsman's not exactly wrong though, named characters usually aren't as good as a tooled up generic version, the difference doesn't tend to be this extreme though.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Regular succubus also looks a great deal better!

She won't be walking out of combat so she'll be quite likely to die if she doesn't finish off the target.

Is the difference actually that extreme?

Lelith is 90pts + a warlord trait if you want to field the 'optimal version' of her.

A tooled up master succubus is 75pts+a warlord trait+a relic.

Lelith kills 12.5 GEQ,
4.2 MEQ
2.1 TEQ
and assuming she gets only one round of combat, 4.0 unsaved wounds vs. a 4++ marine captain profile


Looking at a selection of various succubi I've been doodling around with...

Cursed Blade succubus, Razorflail, Quicksilver Fighter, Hypex, Traitor's Embrace.

8.32 GEQ,
2.0 MEQ,
very small TEQ
3.75 vs Marine Captain

(also explodes when she dies)

Red Grief succubus, Blood Glaive, Precision Blows, Hypex

6.68 GEQ
4.89 MEQ
3.25 TEQ
8.22 vs marine captain (the big strength of all the 'get damage 3 and use precision blows' builds is their capability to murderize invuln protected characters)

Strife Succubus, Shardnet+Impaler, Grave Lotus Toxin, Hypex, Precision Blows

7.63 GEQ
3.81 MEQ
2.69 TEQ
9.40 vs Marine Captain

The Captain Murderingest build I've found so far!

Test of Skill/6s hit twice custom cult, Master Succubus relic glaive, Quicksilver Fighter, Hypex

6.35 GEQ
6.35 MEQ (this one is the MEQ killing one)
3.1 TEQ
6.34 Marine Captain
Bonus round 9.53 against all non-invuln'd vehicles/monsters, thanks Test of Skill!

So yeah, Lelith is the best in the biz at shredding chaff, a middle of the road meq-muncher and does require 2 rounds or a bit of pre-existing damage to take down a marine captain, but she does always strike first and has No Escape so generally speaking she manages to whack the captain the following round before he gets to swing.

She's a perfectly respectable named character, she's just not the unmitigated insanity that is Drazar.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Regular succubus also looks a great deal better!

She won't be walking out of combat so she'll be quite likely to die if she doesn't finish off the target.

I've got a lot of confidence that she will murder that target though. Plus she should have some support around her. Significantly low points investment too. This is also pretty relevant - new Lilith model is fugly.

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is also pretty relevant - new Lilith model is fugly.

Bad paint job. Once the community gets a hold of her she'll look better.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is also pretty relevant - new Lilith model is fugly.

Bad paint job. Once the community gets a hold of her she'll look better.

I'm sure this has been discussed a lot but I think it's more than that. She looks like a female version of Heman (a roided out human). She is supposed to be thin and graceful to the extreme on the already extreme level due to being an eldar.

the_scotsman wrote:

Lelith kills 12.5 GEQ,
4.2 MEQ
2.1 TEQ
and assuming she gets only one round of combat, 4.0 unsaved wounds vs. a 4++ marine captain profile

The math seems wrong? I agree she can have a place, but like you said with other named characters - they don't always take first place. That's probably a good thing since it can ( but doesn't always ) promote more variety.

This is what I get for 1 round vs Captain
((7 * .194) + (7 * .998)) = 8.344 * .75 * .5 = 3.1

Versus normal stuff she should score 7 hits, so 4.7 GEQ or 9.3 in total.

If you're a total madlad and there's a marine nearby you can allocate 4 attacks to that unit and if the model dies you should be able to score 5 on captain with the remainder and a second fight phase. Even easier if they happen to have a wounded model, which is feasible if you bring support.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure this has been discussed a lot but I think it's more than that. She looks like a female version of Heman (a roided out human). She is supposed to be thin and graceful to the extreme on the already extreme level due to being an eldar.

Yea they just over-highlighted the model. Based on the absolute magic people have done on other models I'm pretty confident in any case.

It's probably because many people hated it when unique characters were out and out better than the generic versions. Eldrad should basically be Teclis in space. He should destroy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure this has been discussed a lot but I think it's more than that. She looks like a female version of Heman (a roided out human). She is supposed to be thin and graceful to the extreme on the already extreme level due to being an eldar.

Yea they just over-highlighted the model. Based on the absolute magic people have done on other models I'm pretty confident in any case.

I suspect the same thing. In any case the generic plastic Succubus is a very nice model and easily converted.

 harlokin wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure this has been discussed a lot but I think it's more than that. She looks like a female version of Heman (a roided out human). She is supposed to be thin and graceful to the extreme on the already extreme level due to being an eldar.

Yea they just over-highlighted the model. Based on the absolute magic people have done on other models I'm pretty confident in any case.

I suspect the same thing. In any case the generic plastic Succubus is a very nice model and easily converted.

Dai wrote:
It's probably because many people hated it when unique characters were out and out better than the generic versions. Eldrad should basically be Teclis in space. He should destroy.

Yeah he absolutely should. Really all farseers should. They should basically all have LOC level magic even up to magnus level for an eldar like eldrad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure this has been discussed a lot but I think it's more than that. She looks like a female version of Heman (a roided out human). She is supposed to be thin and graceful to the extreme on the already extreme level due to being an eldar.

Yea they just over-highlighted the model. Based on the absolute magic people have done on other models I'm pretty confident in any case.

I suspect the same thing. In any case the generic plastic Succubus is a very nice model and easily converted.

That bust - those thighs...Looks human to me. This should be the most elfy of elves.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Lelith kills 12.5 GEQ,
4.2 MEQ
2.1 TEQ
and assuming she gets only one round of combat, 4.0 unsaved wounds vs. a 4++ marine captain profile

The math seems wrong? I agree she can have a place, but like you said with other named characters - they don't always take first place. That's probably a good thing since it can ( but doesn't always ) promote more variety.

This is what I get for 1 round vs Captain
((7 * .194) + (7 * .998)) = 8.344 * .75 * .5 = 3.1

Versus normal stuff she should score 7 hits, so 4.7 GEQ or 9.3 in total.

If you're a total madlad and there's a marine nearby you can allocate 4 attacks to that unit and if the model dies you should be able to score 5 on captain with the remainder and a second fight phase. Even easier if they happen to have a wounded model, which is feasible if you bring support.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure this has been discussed a lot but I think it's more than that. She looks like a female version of Heman (a roided out human). She is supposed to be thin and graceful to the extreme on the already extreme level due to being an eldar.

Yea they just over-highlighted the model. Based on the absolute magic people have done on other models I'm pretty confident in any case.

Blood Dancer and the ability on her knives means each hit roll of a 6 is 4 hits.

 Xenomancers wrote:
That bust - those thighs...Looks human to me. This should be the most elfy of elves.

I mean elves aren't necessarily from Kamino.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Dai wrote:
It's probably because many people hated it when unique characters were out and out better than the generic versions. Eldrad should basically be Teclis in space. He should destroy.

Yeah he absolutely should. Really all farseers should. They should basically all have LOC level magic even up to magnus level for an eldar like eldrad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure this has been discussed a lot but I think it's more than that. She looks like a female version of Heman (a roided out human). She is supposed to be thin and graceful to the extreme on the already extreme level due to being an eldar.

Yea they just over-highlighted the model. Based on the absolute magic people have done on other models I'm pretty confident in any case.

I suspect the same thing. In any case the generic plastic Succubus is a very nice model and easily converted.

That bust - those thighs...Looks human to me. This should be the most elfy of elves.

Eldar have basically never been modeled as 'super slim super skinny' except compared to like. space marines. They've always had plenty of musculature and abs (or armor with abs modeled on).

Every time people bitch and moan about how 'mannish' a GW female sculpt is, they're just bitching and moaning about the exact same heroic scaling GW has literally always done on every one of their models.

The new lelith matches just fine with the existing Wych and Succubus sculpts.

This gak is unbelievably played out at this point, and predictable as all hell. People will always take the easy opportunity to whine about how the new eschers look fat but won't say a peep about the fact that Orlocks are all built like dump trucks....until of course GW makes a female orlock compatible with the same bits and then it's suddenly a crime against humanity.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, I mean, 99% of the time when you have one of those "The Best Of The Best X HQ" special character units, you can usually find some combo of trait and relic to give the generic version of them to make them more effective.

The named HQs you see people actually using are the ones that don't have a generic customizable version, that bring something totally unique and wacky to the table like your Ghazghkulls your Nightbringers your Silent Kings. In the dark eldar's case that's Drazar. There's no generic Incubi HQ you can take in every subfaction (sadly), he does his own unique distinct thing, people will use him.

How often do you see competitive players taking Cato sicarius instead of a captain, Shrike instead of a chapter master, Tor Garadon or whatever the yellow fattie character was named instead of a captain, Eldrad instead of a Farseer, etc etc etc.

At least in the case of Shrike, he has a use with Vanguard Vets so there's at least a niche. Tor has the downside of having an ability relegated to him basically needing to punch a Land Raider or a house.

Doesn't he have a BS+1 ability though?

 Xenomancers wrote:

That bust - those thighs...Looks human to me. This should be the most elfy of elves.

yes, because eldar gladiator having muscles is impossible, and a thigh that is folded should absolutely stay as thin as when its fully extended.....

Take a look at the kabalite and guardians...they are dainty elf level thin.

Elfs don't "gain muscle" it is beneath them. Reserved from brutish mon keigh. Bruce lee for example was cutt but not bulky. Hed say the same thing that any eldar would. That extra muscle will slow you down. No elf should look bulky in any-way. They Value speed over strength. SPEED IS STRENGTH.

Notice how Drazzar doesn't look bulky at all.

You can argue proportions and elfiness all you want, it looks nothing like her description in the lore. She is supposed to be elegant, lithe and enthrallingly beautiful. The new model fits neither of those.

 BertBert wrote:
You can argue proportions and elfiness all you want, it looks nothing like her description in the lore. She is supposed to be elegant, lithe and enthrallingly beautiful. The new model fits neither of those.

This was also my point. There is nothing graceful about this model. It looks brutish.

 BertBert wrote:
You can argue proportions and elfiness all you want, it looks nothing like her description in the lore. She is supposed to be elegant, lithe and enthrallingly beautiful. The new model fits neither of those.

*sigh* again - paint job. Looks perfectly elegant and lithe otherwise.

I cannot see anything brutish about this model after looking at in gray plastic that wasnt also in the original model.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
You can argue proportions and elfiness all you want, it looks nothing like her description in the lore. She is supposed to be elegant, lithe and enthrallingly beautiful. The new model fits neither of those.

This was also my point. There is nothing graceful about this model. It looks brutish.

Yea...just...I agree to disagree, I guess.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Lelith kills 12.5 GEQ,
4.2 MEQ
2.1 TEQ
and assuming she gets only one round of combat, 4.0 unsaved wounds vs. a 4++ marine captain profile

The math seems wrong? I agree she can have a place, but like you said with other named characters - they don't always take first place. That's probably a good thing since it can ( but doesn't always ) promote more variety.

This is what I get for 1 round vs Captain
((7 * .194) + (7 * .998)) = 8.344 * .75 * .5 = 3.1

Versus normal stuff she should score 7 hits, so 4.7 GEQ or 9.3 in total.

If you're a total madlad and there's a marine nearby you can allocate 4 attacks to that unit and if the model dies you should be able to score 5 on captain with the remainder and a second fight phase. Even easier if they happen to have a wounded model, which is feasible if you bring support.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure this has been discussed a lot but I think it's more than that. She looks like a female version of Heman (a roided out human). She is supposed to be thin and graceful to the extreme on the already extreme level due to being an eldar.

Yea they just over-highlighted the model. Based on the absolute magic people have done on other models I'm pretty confident in any case.

Blood Dancer and the ability on her knives means each hit roll of a 6 is 4 hits.

It's 3 isnt it? Blood Dancer 6's counts as 2 hits and her ability gives another extra hit for 3 total on 6's.

It's worth bearing in mind that while Kabalites are skinny, Wyches are less so, and are definitely much more muscly cos of all the roids.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Take a look at the kabalite and guardians...they are dainty elf level thin.

Elfs don't "gain muscle" it is beneath them. Reserved from brutish mon keigh. Bruce lee for example was cutt but not bulky. Hed say the same thing that any eldar would. That extra muscle will slow you down. No elf should look bulky in any-way. They Value speed over strength. SPEED IS STRENGTH.

Notice how Drazzar doesn't look bulky at all.

Guardians are incredibly squat and dumpy looking models.

 Imateria wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Take a look at the kabalite and guardians...they are dainty elf level thin.

Elfs don't "gain muscle" it is beneath them. Reserved from brutish mon keigh. Bruce lee for example was cutt but not bulky. Hed say the same thing that any eldar would. That extra muscle will slow you down. No elf should look bulky in any-way. They Value speed over strength. SPEED IS STRENGTH.

Notice how Drazzar doesn't look bulky at all.

Guardians are incredibly squat and dumpy looking models.

Proportions are right. Khabs look perfect IMO.