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Well, as the DE seem to be going in a design direction I've advocated for a while, I figure I'd rehash and update my previous ideas on the craftworlders.


Aspects
Aspect units come in squads of 4-10. They can take an Exarch squad leader, but don't have to. All aspects wear Aspect armour (3+).

They all have the following profile: (using Striking scorpions as an example)

M8 WS3+ BS3+ S3 T3 W1 A2 Ld8 Sv3+

Squad leader
M8 WS2+ BS3+ S3 T3 W3 A3 Ld8 Sv3+

School of the Aspects:
Choose one of the following rules as the school the unit has come from:

Stalker
Ambush
Withdraw

(the unit still has the Masters of Stealth, Shadow Strike and Mandiblasters special rules)

Exarch warrior Powers: Squad leaders can take one of the following:
Sustained Assault
Crushing Blow
Scorpion's Grasp


HQ
Each shrine of the aspects varies in size, age and philosophy. The oldest shrines bear the suits of some of the first students of the Asuryata and as such their exarchs are ancient and potent warriors.

Shrine Lord Exarch
M8 WS2+ BS2+ S4 T4 W4 A4 Ld9 Sv3+

4++
Lord of the Shrine: Choose an aspect from the list and take 2 exarch powers from that unit entry and 2 Schools.


Phoenix Lords
The earliest masters of their Aspect, Phoenix lords are walking demigods of battle, imbued with the souls of dozens of fallen eldar that have taken up their mantle. As the eons wear on, their power grows, slowly moving them to some unknown apotheosis.

M8 WS2+ BS3+ S5 T5 W6 A5 Ld10 Sv2+

4++
The Undying: Phoenix lords treat all attacks as Damage 1, regardless of their actual damage value.

Aspect Master: Each phoenix lord has all 3 Aspect Schools and all 3 Aspect Powers from their respective Aspect unit (plus the special rules the aspect unit already has separate from these).

Walking Legend: Any Asuryani unit within 6" of a phoenix lord may use their Ld value. Aspect warriors also re-roll 1s to hit.



Buy in groups of 2-4, but are separate after that.

Warlocks:
M7 WS3+ BS3+ S3 T3 W3 A3 Ld8 Sv6+/4++


Guardians (6-12 unit size)
M7 WS3+ BS3+ S3 T3 W1 A1 Ld7 Sv4+


Lasblaster 30" S3 AP0 Assault 3
Shuriken catapult 24" S4 AP0 Assault 2 Tearing (6s are -1 AP)
Shuriken cannon 36" S5 AP-1 Assault 3 Tearing (6s are -2AP)

Avenger catapult 18" S4 AP0 Assault 3 Tearing (6s are -3 AP) (avengers should be engaging close assaults, so their weapons shouldn't have a longer range than the guardians who should stand back with longer range, but less powerful weapons).

Hawk Blaster 24" S3 AP0 Assault 5 (again, shorter range compared to guardian weapons
Hawk Talon 24 S5 AP -1 Assault 5


Path of Command
There are several stages to the path of command, culminating in those lost to it, the Autarchs.

Demiarchs (1-3 per HQ choice)

M7 WS3+ BS3+ S3 T3 W3 A3 Ld9 Sv3+/5++

Masterful leadership: all asuryani re-roll 1st to hit while within 6".


Choose 1 of the following Command schools:

Regain command points
Command a unit to attack twice
command a unit to move twice



Autarch
M7 WS2+ BS2+ S3 T3 W5 A4 Ld9 Sv3+/4++


Autarchs know all 3 command schools.

I like a lot of this. Some thoughts:

 Hellebore wrote:

Aspects
Aspect units come in squads of 4-10. They can take an Exarch squad leader, but don't have to. All aspects wear Aspect armour (3+).

Out of curiosity, why 4-10? It's not a big deal, but this would increase the minimum squad size of spears and reapers. Do squad leaders have the option to exarch wargear? I'm a little iffy on the notion of a squad leader. I feel like you're either a normal aspect warrior or else you're an exarch. Having slightly better than normal aspect warriors sits oddly with me. I like having the option to take both a school and exarch power.

Phoenix Lords
The earliest masters of their Aspect, Phoenix lords are walking demigods of battle, imbued with the souls of dozens of fallen eldar that have taken up their mantle. As the eons wear on, their power grows, slowly moving them to some unknown apotheosis.

M8 WS2+ BS3+ S5 T5 W6 A5 Ld10 Sv2+

4++
The Undying: Phoenix lords treat all attacks as Damage 1, regardless of their actual damage value.

Aspect Master: Each phoenix lord has all 3 Aspect Schools and all 3 Aspect Powers from their respective Aspect unit (plus the special rules the aspect unit already has separate from these).

Walking Legend: Any Asuryani unit within 6" of a phoenix lord may use their Ld value. Aspect warriors also re-roll 1s to hit.

I mostly like this. You and I disagree about just how strong/tough a phoenix lord can be, but I suppose we don't have an exact idea of just how much they can bench press. In the novels, they're described as using their grace and weaponry. To me, strength 5 plus wuxia fighting moves means Jain Zar should be palm striking space marines to death and punting guardsmen across the room. But to each their own.

I like the "Treat all attacks as Damage 1" rule. It matches the idea that the giant robot claw just got a piece of them or narrowly missed them rather than taking a limb off. Sort of a return to their Eternal Warrior statuses from 7th edition and earlier. I feel like you could safely get rid of the 4++ with the damage reduction in place, but keeping it shouldn't break anything.

Giving them 3 aspect schools makes sense, but I do worry that it restricts your design space as it requires that all aspect schools be balanced both when applied to squads and when applied to PLs. But that's not an impossible task. Does Walking Legend apply to all aspect, or just the aspect corresponding to the PL? Can Karandras buff Fire Dragons?

Buy in groups of 2-4, but are separate after that.

Warlocks:
M7 WS3+ BS3+ S3 T3 W3 A3 Ld8 Sv6+/4++

No option for a single warlock or a big squad of 'locks? Personally, small warlock squads aren't my style. I'd prefer a cheap character option and a revised conclave option that has warlocks with fewer wounds. (Squads of jedi are cool).

Guardians (6-12 unit size)
M7 WS3+ BS3+ S3 T3 W1 A1 Ld7 Sv4+

Lasblaster 30" S3 AP0 Assault 3
Shuriken catapult 24" S4 AP0 Assault 2 Tearing (6s are -1 AP)
Shuriken cannon 36" S5 AP-1 Assault 3 Tearing (6s are -2AP)

Love the squad size reduction. The 4+ save makes sense given the kabalite changes. Have you mathed out whether or not the lasblaster and shuriken catapult have sufficiently defined niches? At a glance, it feels like those weapons want to shoot at very similar targets, and I suspect that one of them is going to be consistently better in most situations than the other. So basically, I worry that one of those options would be worse than the other and thus get ignored.

Is this for defenders only? How would you handle weapon upgrade options? Thoughts on possibly lowering their BS/WS back to 4+?

Avenger catapult 18" S4 AP0 Assault 3 Tearing (6s are -3 AP) (avengers should be engaging close assaults, so their weapons shouldn't have a longer range than the guardians who should stand back with longer range, but less powerful weapons).

I like this. My personal preference might be to give avengers special rules that support the army overall. Give them school powers that let them overwatch like tau, charge enemy units during your opponent's charge phase (to protect your more expensive/squishy dudes), let them intercept deepstrikers. That sort of thing. But upping their shuriken offense works too. I just worry that it increases competition in the "shoot infantry to death" role.

Hawk Blaster 24" S3 AP0 Assault 5 (again, shorter range compared to guardian weapons
Hawk Talon 24 S5 AP -1 Assault 5

Power creepy, but makes sense next to pteraxii.

Path of Command
There are several stages to the path of command, culminating in those lost to it, the Autarchs.

Demiarchs (1-3 per HQ choice)

M7 WS3+ BS3+ S3 T3 W3 A3 Ld9 Sv3+/5++

Masterful leadership: all asuryani re-roll 1st to hit while within 6".


Choose 1 of the following Command schools:

Regain command points
Command a unit to attack twice
command a unit to move twice

Autarch
M7 WS2+ BS2+ S3 T3 W5 A4 Ld9 Sv3+/4++


Autarchs know all 3 command schools.

I'd probably ditch the demiarch, personally. I know the lore around autarchs is a bit weird, but I'm not sure how valuable it is to have an "autarch but worse" option.

Regaridng the command schools...
* Can everyone with commands use commands each turn? Can the same command be used repeatedly? Probably shouldn't be using a trio of demiarchs to farm 3CP a turn.
* Can the autarch issue each of those commands in the command phase, or just one?
* Move twice feels redundant with Quicken and threatens to make Quicken a non-option.
* Instead of move twice, how about moving after shooting (and not allowing charges after doing so)? Double-move mechanics have generally been a bit problematic in the past. Move-shoot-move offers a bit less bonus movement overall, doesn't make turn 1 charges as big of a concern, and lends itself well to general eldar trickery and agility.
* On that note, how about a shoot/charge after falling back school?
* Not sure I love the fight twice command. It probably wouldn't be broken on most of our melee units, but I don't like the idea of a semi-mandatory autarch being the way that we fix our melee aspects. I'd rather they be good on their own merits. And if they were good enough on their own merits, then allowing them to double-attack would be powerful enough that you'd have to charge the autarch a lot of points for it.

But overall, you've got a cool angle on things. I'd play a codex that used those elements.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I like a lot of this. Some thoughts:

 Hellebore wrote:

Aspects
Aspect units come in squads of 4-10. They can take an Exarch squad leader, but don't have to. All aspects wear Aspect armour (3+).

Out of curiosity, why 4-10? It's not a big deal, but this would increase the minimum squad size of spears and reapers. Do squad leaders have the option to exarch wargear? I'm a little iffy on the notion of a squad leader. I feel like you're either a normal aspect warrior or else you're an exarch. Having slightly better than normal aspect warriors sits oddly with me. I like having the option to take both a school and exarch power.

4 is because the plastic kits have 5 models and I want people to be able to take out the exarch and use it as a Shrine lord, like harlequin troupe leaders. So they would need to be able to take a smaller squad if they wanted an Independent exarch and an aspect squad.

The squad leader is still called an 'exarch squad leader', they're just not the be all and end all of Exarchs. Technically though we see that the squad leaders of the dark eldar can get better attack profiles etc without needing to be an exarch so I'm not averse to different levels of aspect warrior. I still think an eldar that's trod the path of the banshee 3 times is going to be better at it than one that's only walked it once.

But by this set of rules, they're still exarchs.

The concept of schools and exarch powers is basically - if the power affects the whole squad it should a form of squad training, while if it just affects the exarch then it's a warrior power. I am a big fan of the aspects being more sophisticated and nuanced than 'avenger catapult goes BRRRRTT' and schools of training makes sense in that exarchs can be variable in their skill sets so they mustn't all teach identical styles.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Phoenix Lords
The earliest masters of their Aspect, Phoenix lords are walking demigods of battle, imbued with the souls of dozens of fallen eldar that have taken up their mantle. As the eons wear on, their power grows, slowly moving them to some unknown apotheosis.

M8 WS2+ BS3+ S5 T5 W6 A5 Ld10 Sv2+

4++
The Undying: Phoenix lords treat all attacks as Damage 1, regardless of their actual damage value.

Aspect Master: Each phoenix lord has all 3 Aspect Schools and all 3 Aspect Powers from their respective Aspect unit (plus the special rules the aspect unit already has separate from these).

Walking Legend: Any Asuryani unit within 6" of a phoenix lord may use their Ld value. Aspect warriors also re-roll 1s to hit.

I mostly like this. You and I disagree about just how strong/tough a phoenix lord can be, but I suppose we don't have an exact idea of just how much they can bench press. In the novels, they're described as using their grace and weaponry. To me, strength 5 plus wuxia fighting moves means Jain Zar should be palm striking space marines to death and punting guardsmen across the room. But to each their own.

I like the "Treat all attacks as Damage 1" rule. It matches the idea that the giant robot claw just got a piece of them or narrowly missed them rather than taking a limb off. Sort of a return to their Eternal Warrior statuses from 7th edition and earlier. I feel like you could safely get rid of the 4++ with the damage reduction in place, but keeping it shouldn't break anything.

Giving them 3 aspect schools makes sense, but I do worry that it restricts your design space as it requires that all aspect schools be balanced both when applied to squads and when applied to PLs. But that's not an impossible task. Does Walking Legend apply to all aspect, or just the aspect corresponding to the PL? Can Karandras buff Fire Dragons?

Yes I wanted an eternal warrior style of defense and figured this would be the easiest to deal with. It also means they are likely to stick around in melee for longer to strike their opponent, as they no longer have initiative to help do it first.

The walking legend was generic, specifically to stop tying them to their aspect. The phoenix lords have no shrine and are ronin wanderers drawn to fated battles of great import. They don't ordinarily run around with a gaggle of aspect juniors hanging on their every word, so they shouldn't be built around their aspect in the same was a space marine character is.

Hence the generic boost as their position of paragons of the warrior path is more important than the facet they follow.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Buy in groups of 2-4, but are separate after that.

Warlocks:
M7 WS3+ BS3+ S3 T3 W3 A3 Ld8 Sv6+/4++

No option for a single warlock or a big squad of 'locks? Personally, small warlock squads aren't my style. I'd prefer a cheap character option and a revised conclave option that has warlocks with fewer wounds. (Squads of jedi are cool).

Ah it should have been 1-4. I prefer my warlocks to be jedi rather than padawans though. The 2nd ed warlocks could be as basic as the current ones up to chief librarian skilled. So I split the difference.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Guardians (6-12 unit size)
M7 WS3+ BS3+ S3 T3 W1 A1 Ld7 Sv4+

Lasblaster 30" S3 AP0 Assault 3
Shuriken catapult 24" S4 AP0 Assault 2 Tearing (6s are -1 AP)
Shuriken cannon 36" S5 AP-1 Assault 3 Tearing (6s are -2AP)
Love the squad size reduction. The 4+ save makes sense given the kabalite changes. Have you mathed out whether or not the lasblaster and shuriken catapult have sufficiently defined niches? At a glance, it feels like those weapons want to shoot at very similar targets, and I suspect that one of them is going to be consistently better in most situations than the other. So basically, I worry that one of those options would be worse than the other and thus get ignored.

Is this for defenders only? How would you handle weapon upgrade options? Thoughts on possibly lowering their BS/WS back to 4+?

The unit would start with lasblasters and could take catapults as an upgrade per model. Could potentially lower their WS/BS, I'm not fussed either way.

These weapons would be aimed at the same targets (just as assault bolters and bolt rifles are generally going to be used the same way). But their main objective is clearly distinguish the guardians as rear support units rather than frontline warriors.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Avenger catapult 18" S4 AP0 Assault 3 Tearing (6s are -3 AP) (avengers should be engaging close assaults, so their weapons shouldn't have a longer range than the guardians who should stand back with longer range, but less powerful weapons).
I like this. My personal preference might be to give avengers special rules that support the army overall. Give them school powers that let them overwatch like tau, charge enemy units during your opponent's charge phase (to protect your more expensive/squishy dudes), let them intercept deepstrikers. That sort of thing. But upping their shuriken offense works too. I just worry that it increases competition in the "shoot infantry to death" role.

I'm fine with there being Avenger Schools with boosts like that. This weapon should clearly define them as a close assault unit that must get in close to the enemy. It separates the shuriken catapult from the avenger one by making one a less great long distance support weapon and this one a more aggressive close assault weapon (combined with the A2 and improved 3+ armour, it means the avengers can get in close and generally survive the retaliation).

Wyldhunt wrote:

Hawk Blaster 24" S3 AP0 Assault 5 (again, shorter range compared to guardian weapons
Hawk Talon 24 S5 AP -1 Assault 5

Power creepy, but makes sense next to pteraxii.

Yeah and again it's distinguishing the guardian weapon from the aspects, by making them closer ranged.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Path of Command
There are several stages to the path of command, culminating in those lost to it, the Autarchs.

Demiarchs (1-3 per HQ choice)

M7 WS3+ BS3+ S3 T3 W3 A3 Ld9 Sv3+/5++

Masterful leadership: all asuryani re-roll 1st to hit while within 6".


Choose 1 of the following Command schools:

Regain command points
Command a unit to attack twice
command a unit to move twice

Autarch
M7 WS2+ BS2+ S3 T3 W5 A4 Ld9 Sv3+/4++


Autarchs know all 3 command schools.

I'd probably ditch the demiarch, personally. I know the lore around autarchs is a bit weird, but I'm not sure how valuable it is to have an "autarch but worse" option.

Regaridng the command schools...
* Can everyone with commands use commands each turn? Can the same command be used repeatedly? Probably shouldn't be using a trio of demiarchs to farm 3CP a turn.
* Can the autarch issue each of those commands in the command phase, or just one?
* Move twice feels redundant with Quicken and threatens to make Quicken a non-option.
* Instead of move twice, how about moving after shooting (and not allowing charges after doing so)? Double-move mechanics have generally been a bit problematic in the past. Move-shoot-move offers a bit less bonus movement overall, doesn't make turn 1 charges as big of a concern, and lends itself well to general eldar trickery and agility.
* On that note, how about a shoot/charge after falling back school?
* Not sure I love the fight twice command. It probably wouldn't be broken on most of our melee units, but I don't like the idea of a semi-mandatory autarch being the way that we fix our melee aspects. I'd rather they be good on their own merits. And if they were good enough on their own merits, then allowing them to double-attack would be powerful enough that you'd have to charge the autarch a lot of points for it.

But overall, you've got a cool angle on things. I'd play a codex that used those elements.

The objective was to flesh out the path of command beyond one entry, like warlocks and a farseer (warlocks aren't farseers but worse so it shouldn't be an issue with demiarchs). The other point being that you can stack more command school abilities across the army.

It creates a range of command options - psykers, exarchs or autarchs. Each one having a different style of effect on the game.


I'm not fussed what exact schools they come with, I was just throwing in two others alongside the command point recoup rule they currently have. The idea would be to differentiate the way psyker buffs and command buffs work, so that they are not redundant but are complementary. So you could have an army with nothing but demiarchs and warlocks and it would be a super buffer army. Or an Autarch and a farseer and it's more elite, but with less aura bubbles.


Actually, I'd probably change the HQ section to look like this:


Psyker stream

Farseer unit
Seer Unit (choose warlocks, bonesingers and/or spirit seers as opposed to just warlocks)

This would remove individual HQ choices, streamline warlocks etc, and standardise profiles for them.


Command Stream

Autarch unit
Demiarch unit (if you want, you could easily fold demiarchs into guardian squads as squad leaders, reflecting how an autarch learns their command skills by moving through levels of the command hierarchy)


Warrior Stream
Shrine Lord Exarchs
Exarch squad leaders (already rolled into aspect squads)

We sorta have similar fixes for Aspect Warriors it looks like. However I don't default them to a 3+, and I give the Aspect Leader both the WS2+ and BS2+.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We sorta have similar fixes for Aspect Warriors it looks like. However I don't default them to a 3+, and I give the Aspect Leader both the WS2+ and BS2+.

Biggest issue for me is that GW removed the stat comparison mechanics, which makes it harder to create nuanced statlines when you've only really got 2 elite stats, 3+ or 2+.

So as I've got a non phoenix lord ancient exarch unit, I figured I'd let them have the full statline. But not too fussed really.

The 3+ is because aspect armour is different to guardian armour and I want guardians to be 4+, so aspects need to move to 3+.

Heavier aspect armour could go the route of granting extra toughness like Gravis armour if you need difference - so Scorpions, Reapers and spiders could all be T4 3+, while everyone else is T3 3+.

 Hellebore wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We sorta have similar fixes for Aspect Warriors it looks like. However I don't default them to a 3+, and I give the Aspect Leader both the WS2+ and BS2+.

Biggest issue for me is that GW removed the stat comparison mechanics, which makes it harder to create nuanced statlines when you've only really got 2 elite stats, 3+ or 2+.

So as I've got a non phoenix lord ancient exarch unit, I figured I'd let them have the full statline. But not too fussed really.

The 3+ is because aspect armour is different to guardian armour and I want guardians to be 4+, so aspects need to move to 3+.

Heavier aspect armour could go the route of granting extra toughness like Gravis armour if you need difference - so Scorpions, Reapers and spiders could all be T4 3+, while everyone else is T3 3+.

Not exactly the worst route to go either. I'd rather the two heavier Aspects (Dragons and Reapers) get a 2+ though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We sorta have similar fixes for Aspect Warriors it looks like. However I don't default them to a 3+, and I give the Aspect Leader both the WS2+ and BS2+.

Biggest issue for me is that GW removed the stat comparison mechanics, which makes it harder to create nuanced statlines when you've only really got 2 elite stats, 3+ or 2+.

So as I've got a non phoenix lord ancient exarch unit, I figured I'd let them have the full statline. But not too fussed really.

The 3+ is because aspect armour is different to guardian armour and I want guardians to be 4+, so aspects need to move to 3+.

Heavier aspect armour could go the route of granting extra toughness like Gravis armour if you need difference - so Scorpions, Reapers and spiders could all be T4 3+, while everyone else is T3 3+.

Not exactly the worst route to go either. I'd rather the two heavier Aspects (Dragons and Reapers) get a 2+ though.

You could definitely do that. I've wanted GW to give eldar armour styles their own rules forever. Marines have, scout armour, standard, MkX, phobos, gravis, 3 types of terminator armour, artificer armour.

It would be nice to see a range of aspect armour types like:


Destroyer aspect armour - 2+ (Dragons, reapers)
Slayer aspect armour - 3+ T4 (Scorpions, Spiders)
Defender aspect armour - 3+ (Avengers, banshees, spears, hawks)
Phoenix armour - 2+, 5++, reduce damage to 1


plus

Guardian heavy mesh - 4+
Corsair mesh bodysuit - 5+, 6+++

Seer mesh - 5+++
rune armour - 4++

I feel like the reduce damage to 1 is not a good mechanic.

I think halve damage would be better, if you want to do it. A thundercoil harpoon should not do the same damage as a lasgun.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I feel like the reduce damage to 1 is not a good mechanic.

I think halve damage would be better, if you want to do it. A thundercoil harpoon should not do the same damage as a lasgun.

The damage reduction was originally an idea around their unnatural reflexes, the idea being that no one can land a solid blow because they can bullet time their bodies around the attack.

I've variously called it undying, supernatural reflexes etc.

But the combination of the psychic powered gestalt suit and a physical speed so unnatural it doesn't look real was reflected by their ability to avoid almost every attack that hits them.

Which would be better represented by an Invulnerable, honestly.

A glancing hit from an Astartes Chainsword is not the same as a glancing blow from a Reaper Chainsword.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Which would be better represented by an Invulnerable, honestly.

A glancing hit from an Astartes Chainsword is not the same as a glancing blow from a Reaper Chainsword.

I mean I don't want to get into semantics, but I don't think 'glancing' is an objective measure that's relative to the weapon, it's relative to the target. ie if I take a glancing blow, it's a glancing blow. Glancing blows don't kill you know matter how big the thing that glanced you was.


I'm not a fan of the 'can't take more than X amount of damage per phase' rule that c'tan and thraka have. iirc Marneus has armour that halves damage. Abaddon has something similar, unless it's reduced to 1 pt?


EDIT:
In the end, I want the phoenix lords to be better represented as the demigod, spirit powered, soul gestalt space ninjas they are. So they don't eat, sleep, they just wander and fight. They don't really die so much as get damaged to the point of incapacitation until another soul is consumed by the suit to repower it.

They're almost more like physical armoured zombies imbued with psychic powered Wuxia style space kung fu.

IMO a 4++ doesn't really do that concept justice. Happy to look at other options beyond just reduced to 1 damage, but I'd like to be able to show their blinding speed AND undying physical resilience. Their armour is more like a wraithguard with many souls in it, and the remains of the person that put it on...

 Hellebore wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Which would be better represented by an Invulnerable, honestly.

A glancing hit from an Astartes Chainsword is not the same as a glancing blow from a Reaper Chainsword.

I mean I don't want to get into semantics, but I don't think 'glancing' is an objective measure that's relative to the weapon, it's relative to the target. ie if I take a glancing blow, it's a glancing blow. Glancing blows don't kill you know matter how big the thing that glanced you was.


I'm not a fan of the 'can't take more than X amount of damage per phase' rule that c'tan and thraka have. iirc Marneus has armour that halves damage. Abaddon has something similar, unless it's reduced to 1 pt?


EDIT:
In the end, I want the phoenix lords to be better represented as the demigod, spirit powered, soul gestalt space ninjas they are. So they don't eat, sleep, they just wander and fight. They don't really die so much as get damaged to the point of incapacitation until another soul is consumed by the suit to repower it.

They're almost more like physical armoured zombies imbued with psychic powered Wuxia style space kung fu.

IMO a 4++ doesn't really do that concept justice. Happy to look at other options beyond just reduced to 1 damage, but I'd like to be able to show their blinding speed AND undying physical resilience. Their armour is more like a wraithguard with many souls in it, and the remains of the person that put it on...

How many points do you want a Phoenix Lord to be?

IMO the phoenix lords are conceptually similar to the eldar as primarchs are to marines.

They are unique, one off individuals with supernatural power.

So I would fully expect them to be 250+ each.

One of my intentions with creating a generic ancient exarch HQ is to allow people to create a similar feel to the current armies without needing a named character to do it.

So that when you do deploy a phoenix lord, you're doing so with a similar feel to deploying Guilliman, Marneus, Abaddon etc.


The way I see phoenix lords, as they each perfectly embody a specific aspect of the eldar war god, is that they're basically Daemon Princes of Khaine.

They have each given themselves to war completely and utterly and have spent 10,000 years consuming the souls of worthy and fated eldar to become the warriors they are now.

They've basically ascended to the eldar equivalent of daemon princedom as mini infinity circuit powered warriors.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Which would be better represented by an Invulnerable, honestly.

A glancing hit from an Astartes Chainsword is not the same as a glancing blow from a Reaper Chainsword.

I mean I don't want to get into semantics, but I don't think 'glancing' is an objective measure that's relative to the weapon, it's relative to the target. ie if I take a glancing blow, it's a glancing blow. Glancing blows don't kill you know matter how big the thing that glanced you was.


I'm not a fan of the 'can't take more than X amount of damage per phase' rule that c'tan and thraka have. iirc Marneus has armour that halves damage. Abaddon has something similar, unless it's reduced to 1 pt?


EDIT:
In the end, I want the phoenix lords to be better represented as the demigod, spirit powered, soul gestalt space ninjas they are. So they don't eat, sleep, they just wander and fight. They don't really die so much as get damaged to the point of incapacitation until another soul is consumed by the suit to repower it.

They're almost more like physical armoured zombies imbued with psychic powered Wuxia style space kung fu.

IMO a 4++ doesn't really do that concept justice. Happy to look at other options beyond just reduced to 1 damage, but I'd like to be able to show their blinding speed AND undying physical resilience. Their armour is more like a wraithguard with many souls in it, and the remains of the person that put it on...

How many points do you want a Phoenix Lord to be?

Not 160 pts for no utility or punch...
Look at any of the SM special characters with their rules and thats a ballpark if also eiother beatstick or utility/buffs.

So far we got irylith whose a FW character.
Unfortunately he has no warlord trait but at least pumps out some serious dakka and he has a 4++ (aalllllelluuuyyyah!!!!!)
Obviously hes still not allowed more than 4 attacks because GW has decided not a single CWE unit should ever have more than 4 attacks...

 Hellebore wrote:
IMO the phoenix lords are conceptually similar to the eldar as primarchs are to marines.

They are unique, one off individuals with supernatural power.

So I would fully expect them to be 250+ each.

One of my intentions with creating a generic ancient exarch HQ is to allow people to create a similar feel to the current armies without needing a named character to do it.

So that when you do deploy a phoenix lord, you're doing so with a similar feel to deploying Guilliman, Marneus, Abaddon etc.


The way I see phoenix lords, as they each perfectly embody a specific aspect of the eldar war god, is that they're basically Daemon Princes of Khaine.

They have each given themselves to war completely and utterly and have spent 10,000 years consuming the souls of worthy and fated eldar to become the warriors they are now.

They've basically ascended to the eldar equivalent of daemon princedom as mini infinity circuit powered warriors.

Okay. But it still feels off to me-supernatural reflexes would seem, to me, to be represented by penalties to hit or invulnerable saves. Not damage reduction.

Perhaps have Transhuman for hit rolls? Make it so they can never be hit on better than a 4+ or some such?

 Argive wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Which would be better represented by an Invulnerable, honestly.

A glancing hit from an Astartes Chainsword is not the same as a glancing blow from a Reaper Chainsword.

I mean I don't want to get into semantics, but I don't think 'glancing' is an objective measure that's relative to the weapon, it's relative to the target. ie if I take a glancing blow, it's a glancing blow. Glancing blows don't kill you know matter how big the thing that glanced you was.


I'm not a fan of the 'can't take more than X amount of damage per phase' rule that c'tan and thraka have. iirc Marneus has armour that halves damage. Abaddon has something similar, unless it's reduced to 1 pt?


EDIT:
In the end, I want the phoenix lords to be better represented as the demigod, spirit powered, soul gestalt space ninjas they are. So they don't eat, sleep, they just wander and fight. They don't really die so much as get damaged to the point of incapacitation until another soul is consumed by the suit to repower it.

They're almost more like physical armoured zombies imbued with psychic powered Wuxia style space kung fu.

IMO a 4++ doesn't really do that concept justice. Happy to look at other options beyond just reduced to 1 damage, but I'd like to be able to show their blinding speed AND undying physical resilience. Their armour is more like a wraithguard with many souls in it, and the remains of the person that put it on...

How many points do you want a Phoenix Lord to be?

Not 160 pts for no utility or punch...
Look at any of the SM special characters with their rules and thats a ballpark if also eiother beatstick or utility/buffs.

So far we got irylith whose a FW character.
Unfortunately he has no warlord trait but at least pumps out some serious dakka and he has a 4++ (aalllllelluuuyyyah!!!!!)
Obviously hes still not allowed more than 4 attacks because GW has decided not a single CWE unit should ever have more than 4 attacks...

Well the current Asurmen has 5 attacks... but yeah it's annoying.

Phoenix Lords should not be tied to eldar statlines as they've evolved far beyond mortal limitations.

Hence me giving them base S/T 5. They should be putting out at least 5 attacks each, with characters like karandras having more.

For instance we could go:

Asurmen
M8 WS1+ BS1+ S5 T5 W6 A6 Ld10 Sv 2+

5++, 4++ in melee, Reduce all damage to 1

Blade of asur - S+1 AP-3 D2 6s to wound cause 1D3 mortal wounds
OR Sx2 AP-4 D3 halve attacks value. 5s or 6s to wound cause 1D3 mortal wounds

Vengeance vambrace 18" S5 AP-3 D2 Assault 5


Karandras

M8 WS2+ BS2+ S5 T5 W6 A5 Ld10 Sv 2+

5++, 4++ in cover, Reduce all damage to 1

The Stalker's Claw Sx2 AP-4 D2
Stinging Blade S AP-2 D1 make 3 additional attacks with the stinging blade
Scorpion's Bite Before combat starts Roll 3 D6. For each 4+ the unit receives 1 mortal wound.


Fuegan
M8 WS2+ BS2+ S5 T5 W6 A5 Ld10 Sv 2+

4+++, Reduce all damage to 1

Fire Axe S+2 AP-5 DD3+1
Fire pike 24" S9 AP-5 D D6+3 Assault 2
OR Dragon fire 12" S6 AP-2 D1 Assault 1D6+3

Fiery aura: Enemy attackers that roll natural 1s to hit, must make an armour save or lose a pt of damage.


Baharroth
M16 WS2+ BS2+ S5 T4 W6 A6 Ld10 Sv 2+

4++, Reduce all damage to 1

Laser Talon 24" S6 AP-1 D1 Assault 6, units that lose causalities to this weapon are at -1 to hit next round.
Shining Blade S+1 AP-3 D2, units attacking melee are at -1 to hit


Jain Zarr
M10 WS2+ BS2+ S5 T4 W6 A5 Ld10 Sv 2+

4++, 3++ in melee, Reduce all damage to 1

Blade of Destruction S+2 AP-3 D3
Silent death 18" S5 AP-3 D2 assault 3, may make an additional attack in melee with this profile


Maugan Ra
M7 WS2+ BS2+ S5 T6 W6 A4 Ld10 Sv 2+

5++, Reduce all damage to 1

Maugetar 36" S7 AP-3 D2 Assault 6
Melee S+3 AP-3 D D3+1

 Hellebore wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We sorta have similar fixes for Aspect Warriors it looks like. However I don't default them to a 3+, and I give the Aspect Leader both the WS2+ and BS2+.

Biggest issue for me is that GW removed the stat comparison mechanics, which makes it harder to create nuanced statlines when you've only really got 2 elite stats, 3+ or 2+.

So as I've got a non phoenix lord ancient exarch unit, I figured I'd let them have the full statline. But not too fussed really.

The 3+ is because aspect armour is different to guardian armour and I want guardians to be 4+, so aspects need to move to 3+.

Heavier aspect armour could go the route of granting extra toughness like Gravis armour if you need difference - so Scorpions, Reapers and spiders could all be T4 3+, while everyone else is T3 3+.

Not exactly the worst route to go either. I'd rather the two heavier Aspects (Dragons and Reapers) get a 2+ though.

You could definitely do that. I've wanted GW to give eldar armour styles their own rules forever. Marines have, scout armour, standard, MkX, phobos, gravis, 3 types of terminator armour, artificer armour.

It would be nice to see a range of aspect armour types like:


Destroyer aspect armour - 2+ (Dragons, reapers)
Slayer aspect armour - 3+ T4 (Scorpions, Spiders)
Defender aspect armour - 3+ (Avengers, banshees, spears, hawks)
Phoenix armour - 2+, 5++, reduce damage to 1


plus

Guardian heavy mesh - 4+
Corsair mesh bodysuit - 5+, 6+++

Seer mesh - 5+++
rune armour - 4++

There's already a ton of varying T values in the army, so I don't see that as much an issue as much as wanting to introduce differing save values.

Also I gotta say that the reduce all damage to 1 is a terrible idea. Not even the Daemon Primarchs get that. You could do either -1 to damage or halve damage, but it isn't necessary to introduce such a durability rule. Hell, I'm not even a fan of how Ghaz and the CTan are handled, but they would be a better way to go about it than this.

In isolation that rule might seem too good, but we're talking about models with no more than 6 wounds each. Which means they only have to fail a save 6 times to die.

The other units you mention all have a much higher amount of wounds than the phoenix lords do.

The only other way to do it is give the PLs higher Toughness and wounds values.

Or give them a 2++ save.

But T5 W6 won't last long even if incoming attacks can't do more than 1 pt of damage each.

 Hellebore wrote:
Biggest issue for me is that GW removed the stat comparison mechanics, which makes it harder to create nuanced statlines when you've only really got 2 elite stats, 3+ or 2+.

You can use the Attacks characteristic and master-crafted (extra dmg) weapons to convey increased skill.

 Hellebore wrote:
In isolation that rule might seem too good, but we're talking about models with no more than 6 wounds each. Which means they only have to fail a save 6 times to die.

The other units you mention all have a much higher amount of wounds than the phoenix lords do.

The only other way to do it is give the PLs higher Toughness and wounds values.

Or give them a 2++ save.

But T5 W6 won't last long even if incoming attacks can't do more than 1 pt of damage each.

It takes 81 attacks at WS3+, S4, AP-1 to kill them.
Increase to S5 AP-3 (Power Sword on a MEQ) and it still takes 36 attacks. (Assuming a 4++.)

Plus, they have character protection.

Again, I'd use Transhuman for hit rolls-you can make it a 5+ against ranged attacks and 4+ against melee attacks, or make it like the Culexus and have their WS/BS be treated as 4+/5+ so hit modifiers still apply.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
In isolation that rule might seem too good, but we're talking about models with no more than 6 wounds each. Which means they only have to fail a save 6 times to die.

The other units you mention all have a much higher amount of wounds than the phoenix lords do.

The only other way to do it is give the PLs higher Toughness and wounds values.

Or give them a 2++ save.

But T5 W6 won't last long even if incoming attacks can't do more than 1 pt of damage each.

It takes 81 attacks at WS3+, S4, AP-1 to kill them.
Increase to S5 AP-3 (Power Sword on a MEQ) and it still takes 36 attacks. (Assuming a 4++.)

Plus, they have character protection.

Again, I'd use Transhuman for hit rolls-you can make it a 5+ against ranged attacks and 4+ against melee attacks, or make it like the Culexus and have their WS/BS be treated as 4+/5+ so hit modifiers still apply.

Yeah I'd thought about racial trait like that - no one can hit Eldar on better than 4+ due to their reflexes. Given there is just no mechanical way to reflect speed as defence anymore that seems like the best way.

I could go with that and an invulnerable save I think.


Edit:

Asurmen
M8 WS2+ BS2+ S5 T5 W6 A6 Ld10 Sv 2+

4++, can't be hit on better than a 4+

Blade of asur - S+1 AP-3 D2 6s to wound cause 1D3 mortal wounds
OR Sx2 AP-4 D3 halve attacks value (so A3). 5s or 6s to wound cause 1D3 mortal wounds

Vengeance vambrace 18" S5 AP-3 D2 Assault 5


That would be what? 290 pts?

That scales really bad, especially as Guard Infantry are entirely unaffected.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That scales really bad, especially as Guard Infantry are entirely unaffected.

It doesn't no. But neither does TRanshumans and that seems to fine for the game.

Otherwise there's not much else you can do to represent this aspect.

Some other options could be:

Always strikes first
Better invuln (3++)
feel no pain (4+++)
A healing mechanic (roll at the beginning of the turn to regain wounds)

-1 to hit is naf because of the limit on hit modifiers.

If it's no better than 4+ to hit, it basically means people are relying on chance (50/50) to effectively strike.


Before 8th, using the WS vs WS table, phoenix lords would be hitting marine characters first and at 3+, while the marine character would hit second at 4+ (WS7 vs 6 and I7 vs 6).

This was a great way to show their supernatural skill and speed as protection. Without that, they suck even more than they did when GW refused to give them an invulnerable save.

 Hellebore wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That scales really bad, especially as Guard Infantry are entirely unaffected.

It doesn't no. But neither does TRanshumans and that seems to fine for the game.

Otherwise there's not much else you can do to represent this aspect.

Some other options could be:

Always strikes first
Better invuln (3++)
feel no pain (4+++)
A healing mechanic (roll at the beginning of the turn to regain wounds)

-1 to hit is naf because of the limit on hit modifiers.

If it's no better than 4+ to hit, it basically means people are relying on chance (50/50) to effectively strike.


Before 8th, using the WS vs WS table, phoenix lords would be hitting marine characters first and at 3+, while the marine character would hit second at 4+ (WS7 vs 6 and I7 vs 6).

This was a great way to show their supernatural skill and speed as protection. Without that, they suck even more than they did when GW refused to give them an invulnerable save.

I'm entirely against Transhuman Physiology as well.

Im against having a cap on hit modifiers caps at -1 for eldar...

 Argive wrote:
Im against having a cap on hit modifiers caps at -1 for eldar...

As I've brought up before, if we moved outside a D6 system for hitting targets, we could easily remove modifier caps.

The funny thing is when we were discussing potential rules for 9th way back when, I mentioned -1 to hit for terrain but with a 6 always hit, people were shouting how it would be unfair for low BS armies

Now we have the first and the latter but no stack which is the worse of both worlds.. I hope we get a work around of lowering enemy BS

 Argive wrote:
The funny thing is when we were discussing potential rules for 9th way back when, I mentioned -1 to hit for terrain but with a 6 always hit, people were shouting how it would be unfair for low BS armies

Now we have the first and the latter but no stack which is the worse of both worlds.. I hope we get a work around of lowering enemy BS

That really wasn't a majority of people though is the difference. A D10 system would be AMAZING to be honest, or even D8, but we're stuck with, well, this.

Maybe I'll come up with a d10 system for various units.

Don't love Transhuman to-hit rolls (never hitting on better than a 4+). It doesn't do anything to boost the PLs' defense against half the units in the game, but it does make elite armies feel just as unimpressive as guardsmen.

Always strike first would help represent their speed and is arguably a rule that all aeldari should maybe possibly get, but it only helps the PLs' defense situationally. A Living Metal-style "healing" rule doesn't feel like a great fit for their fluff and doesn't do a lot to help them survive; the things that kill them tend to do so in a single turn.

3+ invuls and 4+ FNPs would kind of work. They feel a bit... blunt, but they would work.

What if we just gave them a bunch of wounds and a special rule saying they can still benefit from Look Out Sir!? A modest invul (4+ or 5+) might still be a good idea, but you could move the burden of representing their hypercompetence/plot armor to a pile of wounds the same way D&D characters survive perplexing amounts of damage via hit points.

So Baharroth is still more worried about lasannons than lasguns, and Dante doesn't look like a chump when they duel, but having (let's say) 15 wounds means that Baharroth isn't going to get mutilated the first time he tries to join the melee against a competent close combat enemy.

From the eldar player's perspective, Baharroth is way more survivable than before. From his opponent's perspective, bird elf is vulnerable to good AP and high damage; his army's offensive advantages (such as higher damage) aren't being negated by a special rule; bird elf is just an expensive model that takes an appropriate number of attacks to lay low.

15 wounds? LOL y'all are just as garbage as GW when it comes to rules.