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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
15 wounds? LOL y'all are just as garbage as GW when it comes to rules.

... So as good as the rules you already play with? Calling it garbage doesn't mean much if it's garbage you already consume...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
15 wounds? LOL y'all are just as garbage as GW when it comes to rules.

I was just throwing a number out there, but 15 actually doesn't seem all that crazy. Thus far unheard of for an infantry-sized model, sure, but think about it. A squad of 5 terminators is 15 wounds with the same armor save. With shock assault, they have what? 12 power fist attacks and and 3 power sword attacks in the first round of combat. So 6 fist hits and 2 sword hits. It doesn't seem outlandish to me for a phoenix lord to be landing roughly that many hits of roughly that quality. And a terminator squad comes in at about 100 points less than the target price range Hellebore laid out. That seems like a decent amount of wiggle room for accounting for the added protection afforded by Look Out Sir! and a couple unique special abilities; especially given that 20 storm bolter shots is better shooting than most PLs are likely to have.

Not that you couldn't shift the exact number of wounds around instead. My suggestion was just, "Give them lots of wounds, but don't take away screen protection."

PROS
* It makes the phoenix lords durable.
* It works against most armies more or less evenly. No transhuman to hit roll weirdness where BS4+ armies don't even notice. No to-hit penalties that penalize enemies at different rates based on their BS. Admittedly somewhat less effective against armies packed to the gills with high damage weapons.
* It doesn't rob your opponent of any of the advantages they paid for. They still benefit from their BS stat. They still benefit from the Strength, AP, and Damage on their weapons. Your super cool character with a d6 damage melee weapon doesn't suddenly do the same damage as a bog standard power sword when facing Fuegan.

CONS
* It's a little weird because no other infantry-sized character has that many wounds.

Do you feel that giving a Phoenix Lord more than 10 wounds (and letting them keep LoSir!) would break the game or represent their fluff less-well than an alternative approach?

 Hellebore wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
15 wounds? LOL y'all are just as garbage as GW when it comes to rules.

... So as good as the rules you already play with? Calling it garbage doesn't mean much if it's garbage you already consume...

I tell people not to actually buy GW's rules for a reason!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
15 wounds? LOL y'all are just as garbage as GW when it comes to rules.

I was just throwing a number out there, but 15 actually doesn't seem all that crazy. Thus far unheard of for an infantry-sized model, sure, but think about it. A squad of 5 terminators is 15 wounds with the same armor save. With shock assault, they have what? 12 power fist attacks and and 3 power sword attacks in the first round of combat. So 6 fist hits and 2 sword hits. It doesn't seem outlandish to me for a phoenix lord to be landing roughly that many hits of roughly that quality. And a terminator squad comes in at about 100 points less than the target price range Hellebore laid out. That seems like a decent amount of wiggle room for accounting for the added protection afforded by Look Out Sir! and a couple unique special abilities; especially given that 20 storm bolter shots is better shooting than most PLs are likely to have.

Not that you couldn't shift the exact number of wounds around instead. My suggestion was just, "Give them lots of wounds, but don't take away screen protection."

PROS
* It makes the phoenix lords durable.
* It works against most armies more or less evenly. No transhuman to hit roll weirdness where BS4+ armies don't even notice. No to-hit penalties that penalize enemies at different rates based on their BS. Admittedly somewhat less effective against armies packed to the gills with high damage weapons.
* It doesn't rob your opponent of any of the advantages they paid for. They still benefit from their BS stat. They still benefit from the Strength, AP, and Damage on their weapons. Your super cool character with a d6 damage melee weapon doesn't suddenly do the same damage as a bog standard power sword when facing Fuegan.

CONS
* It's a little weird because no other infantry-sized character has that many wounds.

Do you feel that giving a Phoenix Lord more than 10 wounds (and letting them keep LoSir!) would break the game or represent their fluff less-well than an alternative approach?

It really doesn't help represent them in the same way many of you complained about W2 Marines to begin with. While the 6th/7th Edition iterations clearly had their own issues, it's a better jumping off point. I'd really go something along the lines of, for the basic Lord:
M8" WS2+ BS2+ S4 T4 W7 A7 LD10 2+/5++. From there you can modify the stats, such as Fuegan having the S5 like before, Asurman having the 4++, etc. THEN we get all the benefits of said wargear (which I have proposed fixes for before and would need to dig them up). Then we can have core rules such as a -1 to incoming damage or halve incoming damage, the aura, and some stupid rule giving out an LD10 aura because INSPIRATION. We have to keep in mind that, while some of the fluff is impressive, only Maugen has the most over the top feats that don't even come from 1d4chan.

Regarding being naturally fast, I'm sure you're aware I'm against the Modifier cap and think we need to move towards a more granular hitting system with D8 or D10, and the Lords (and maybe even Eldar in general) can get an innate -1 To Hit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
15 wounds? LOL y'all are just as garbage as GW when it comes to rules.

@Slayer-Fan: See, now that's a constructive post. Why not start with that and skip the part where you call your fellow dakkanauts garbage? ;D

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It really doesn't help represent them in the same way many of you complained about W2 Marines to begin with.

Could you clarify what you mean here? Personally, I thought going to 2 Wounds was a good move. It represents the general durability and plot armor of marines pretty well. Putting a bunch of etra wounds on a PL isn't especially elegant, but it's abstract enough to reasonably represent the combination of speed, skill, and plot armor that keeps PLs from being insta-gibbed in fluff.

While the 6th/7th Edition iterations clearly had their own issues, it's a better jumping off point. I'd really go something along the lines of, for the basic Lord:
M8" WS2+ BS2+ S4 T4 W7 A7 LD10 2+/5++. From there you can modify the stats, such as Fuegan having the S5 like before, Asurman having the 4++, etc. THEN we get all the benefits of said wargear (which I have proposed fixes for before and would need to dig them up). Then we can have core rules such as a -1 to incoming damage or halve incoming damage, the aura, and some stupid rule giving out an LD10 aura because INSPIRATION. We have to keep in mind that, while some of the fluff is impressive, only Maugen has the most over the top feats that don't even come from 1d4chan.

This approach seems reasonable to me. It's worth noting that this approach probably results in a phoenix lord that is comparable to one of the beefier named marine characters while Hellebore seems (to me) to be aiming for something more on par with a greater daemon or supreme commander type. I think both of those are valid goals. It's just worth noting the distinction.

Personally, I think putting PLs basically on par with named chapter masters is a decent way to go. Plot armor/protagonist power can be roughly comparable to the PLs' superior experience and supernatural mojo. Being able to compare Baharroth to the best of the best of the best the imperium has to offer feels fine. It's just when a random chapter master can reliably wipe the floor with Baharroth and make it look easy that things seem off.

Regarding being naturally fast, I'm sure you're aware I'm against the Modifier cap and think we need to move towards a more granular hitting system with D8 or D10, and the Lords (and maybe even Eldar in general) can get an innate -1 To Hit.

I'm still not a huge fan of switching die sizes. We could go to d12s to gain twice the die faces, and that level of granularity would probably make stacking to-hit penalties feasible. However, I'm not sure we'd see enough improvements to the game from such a change to warrant the increased inaccessibility to new players. But that's a conversation we've had and one that probably belongs in a different thread if we want to have it again. Basically, I feel like we could stick with d6s and use another method to represent things being hard to hit. Comparing stats (WS vs WS or BS vs Evasion) maybe. Or possibly just limiting to-hit penalties to one self-imposed and one enemy source. But that's also a topic for another thread, probably.

Wyldhunt wrote:
@Slayer-Fan: See, now that's a constructive post. Why not start with that and skip the part where you call your fellow dakkanauts garbage? ;D

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It really doesn't help represent them in the same way many of you complained about W2 Marines to begin with.

Could you clarify what you mean here? Personally, I thought going to 2 Wounds was a good move. It represents the general durability and plot armor of marines pretty well. Putting a bunch of etra wounds on a PL isn't especially elegant, but it's abstract enough to reasonably represent the combination of speed, skill, and plot armor that keeps PLs from being insta-gibbed in fluff.

While the 6th/7th Edition iterations clearly had their own issues, it's a better jumping off point. I'd really go something along the lines of, for the basic Lord:
M8" WS2+ BS2+ S4 T4 W7 A7 LD10 2+/5++. From there you can modify the stats, such as Fuegan having the S5 like before, Asurman having the 4++, etc. THEN we get all the benefits of said wargear (which I have proposed fixes for before and would need to dig them up). Then we can have core rules such as a -1 to incoming damage or halve incoming damage, the aura, and some stupid rule giving out an LD10 aura because INSPIRATION. We have to keep in mind that, while some of the fluff is impressive, only Maugen has the most over the top feats that don't even come from 1d4chan.

This approach seems reasonable to me. It's worth noting that this approach probably results in a phoenix lord that is comparable to one of the beefier named marine characters while Hellebore seems (to me) to be aiming for something more on par with a greater daemon or supreme commander type. I think both of those are valid goals. It's just worth noting the distinction.

Personally, I think putting PLs basically on par with named chapter masters is a decent way to go. Plot armor/protagonist power can be roughly comparable to the PLs' superior experience and supernatural mojo. Being able to compare Baharroth to the best of the best of the best the imperium has to offer feels fine. It's just when a random chapter master can reliably wipe the floor with Baharroth and make it look easy that things seem off.

Regarding being naturally fast, I'm sure you're aware I'm against the Modifier cap and think we need to move towards a more granular hitting system with D8 or D10, and the Lords (and maybe even Eldar in general) can get an innate -1 To Hit.

I'm still not a huge fan of switching die sizes. We could go to d12s to gain twice the die faces, and that level of granularity would probably make stacking to-hit penalties feasible. However, I'm not sure we'd see enough improvements to the game from such a change to warrant the increased inaccessibility to new players. But that's a conversation we've had and one that probably belongs in a different thread if we want to have it again. Basically, I feel like we could stick with d6s and use another method to represent things being hard to hit. Comparing stats (WS vs WS or BS vs Evasion) maybe. Or possibly just limiting to-hit penalties to one self-imposed and one enemy source. But that's also a topic for another thread, probably.

Nothing wrong with a generic Character beating down named characters. Otherwise Sicarius would have more complaints regarding ineptitude in melee. Hell, I'm for a free Relic on any generic character and the ability to pay 1CP for an additional, more powerful relic ON said Character.

But Sicarius isn’t the most powerful duelist of the entire Imperium, as far as I know.

Phoenix Lords are the peak of eldar combat power.

 JNAProductions wrote:
But Sicarius isn’t the most powerful duelist of the entire Imperium, as far as I know.

Phoenix Lords are the peak of eldar combat power.

Sicarius is just one example. Many generic characters over the course of several editions were able to kill Kharn and Lucius pretty easily, after all, and they're both known for that sorta skill. Lelith from DE has basically always been bad. Belial only ever had the wounding roll going for him, and he's supposed to be an amazing duelist in fluff.

At some point you have to ask what's simply fan wankery and what GW TRIED to do, and find that middle ground.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Nothing wrong with a generic Character beating down named characters. Otherwise Sicarius would have more complaints regarding ineptitude in melee. Hell, I'm for a free Relic on any generic character and the ability to pay 1CP for an additional, more powerful relic ON said Character.

Oh I'm fine with phoenix lords getting killed by enemy characters, generic or otherwise. What does bug me is when that character makes it look easy. If the imperium's greatest champions can swat down phoenix lords 9 out of 10 times, then the phoenix lords' own grandeur is being ignored/poorly represented. If the phoenix lords are winning about half the time against the beatsticks of other factions, then that feels about right; the "coolness" of both armies is being acknowledged.

Lucius, Jain Zar, and Dante should all be nervous when they get into melee with each other. Jain shouldn't be jealous of Ragnar Blackmane's melee prowess.

For me it comes down to the background of the phoenix lords.

One, they're the perfect embodiments of a specific aspect of the eldar wargod. The Eldar psyche can obsess and perfect something to an inhuman supernatural level.
Two, they're 10,000 years old and spend arguably more time fighting than marines do, as they wander the galaxy basically just looking for fights. Their only downtime is when they've been put into hibernation by being killed and waiting for a new soul to reawaken them
Three, they're more like a wraithlord than a living Eldar. Their suit contains all the souls of those that have taken up the mantle, significant fated souls sacrificed to resurrect an eternal warrior. The more souls in anything the more powerful they are, CF demons, gods, ynnead, the emperor, etc. The more they die, the more powerful they get



Therefore, they should absolutely be more than chapter masters.

They're like a self actualised demigod, effectively reaching enlightenment all on their own.


Hence my view that they should be treated more like a daemon Prince in terms of representation.

And from a comparative perspective, they're more like primarchs of aspects not chapter masters. The chapter masters are the most ancient exarchs that live in the shrines on the various craftworlds.



Whether their stats are represented by blunt high S/T/W or special rules protecting them, I am all for them being high 200s in a unique range beyond marine characters.

All those souls aren't gonna matter if the stature of the armor isn't great or if the material isn't bound together by anything but pure will and dust. Remember they've died several times (outside who, Maugen and Fuegan?) and thats because they're really not infallible or as graceful as you think they are. Marine gets to even 400 YO that's impressive since they, well, die all the time too.

Same way we can pretend Lucius is this amazing duelist based on fluff but keep in mind he's died a lot himself. He's not all he thinks he's cracked up to be.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All those souls aren't gonna matter if the stature of the armor isn't great or if the material isn't bound together by anything but pure will and dust. Remember they've died several times (outside who, Maugen and Fuegan?) and thats because they're really not infallible or as graceful as you think they are. Marine gets to even 400 YO that's impressive since they, well, die all the time too.

Same way we can pretend Lucius is this amazing duelist based on fluff but keep in mind he's died a lot himself. He's not all he thinks he's cracked up to be.

And the daemon primarchs haven't been infallible either, being 'killed' and locked in the warp for X many years.

This is the effect of having immortal characters, death becomes a plot point rather than anything meaningful.

So it therefore reflects nothing in the same way magnus' statline isn't reflected by the fact that Ragnar throwing a spear in his eye banished him.

A suit of wraithbone armour from the height of the Eldar empire powered by the psychic energy of the mightiest souls. Wraithguard are made of the same stuff and powered the same way. Hell a wraithguard only has one soul in it (and not even the mightiest souls like the phoenix lords) do and still has enough power to run the giant suit and power a deadly portal gun so there's no mystery about how powerful they could be.

 Hellebore wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All those souls aren't gonna matter if the stature of the armor isn't great or if the material isn't bound together by anything but pure will and dust. Remember they've died several times (outside who, Maugen and Fuegan?) and thats because they're really not infallible or as graceful as you think they are. Marine gets to even 400 YO that's impressive since they, well, die all the time too.

Same way we can pretend Lucius is this amazing duelist based on fluff but keep in mind he's died a lot himself. He's not all he thinks he's cracked up to be.

And the daemon primarchs haven't been infallible either, being 'killed' and locked in the warp for X many years.

This is the effect of having immortal characters, death becomes a plot point rather than anything meaningful.

So it therefore reflects nothing in the same way magnus' statline isn't reflected by the fact that Ragnar throwing a spear in his eye banished him.

A suit of wraithbone armour from the height of the Eldar empire powered by the psychic energy of the mightiest souls. Wraithguard are made of the same stuff and powered the same way. Hell a wraithguard only has one soul in it (and not even the mightiest souls like the phoenix lords) do and still has enough power to run the giant suit and power a deadly portal gun so there's no mystery about how powerful they could be.

You're correct about the Primarchs. That's why we don't go for fan wankery when it comes to balancing them and making rules, unless you want a 1500 point Magnus The Red.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All those souls aren't gonna matter if the stature of the armor isn't great or if the material isn't bound together by anything but pure will and dust. Remember they've died several times (outside who, Maugen and Fuegan?) and thats because they're really not infallible or as graceful as you think they are. Marine gets to even 400 YO that's impressive since they, well, die all the time too.

Same way we can pretend Lucius is this amazing duelist based on fluff but keep in mind he's died a lot himself. He's not all he thinks he's cracked up to be.

And the daemon primarchs haven't been infallible either, being 'killed' and locked in the warp for X many years.

This is the effect of having immortal characters, death becomes a plot point rather than anything meaningful.

So it therefore reflects nothing in the same way magnus' statline isn't reflected by the fact that Ragnar throwing a spear in his eye banished him.

A suit of wraithbone armour from the height of the Eldar empire powered by the psychic energy of the mightiest souls. Wraithguard are made of the same stuff and powered the same way. Hell a wraithguard only has one soul in it (and not even the mightiest souls like the phoenix lords) do and still has enough power to run the giant suit and power a deadly portal gun so there's no mystery about how powerful they could be.

You're correct about the Primarchs. That's why we don't go for fan wankery when it comes to balancing them and making rules, unless you want a 1500 point Magnus The Red.

He's already far more reflective of his fluff, I don't think many people consider him untrue to the character.


But the phoenix lords have been neglected and under powered for editions.

In 2nd ed they would pretty much always beat marine special characters, and maugan and karandras were toughness 6.



For some reason GW decided that all marines characters would get an invulnerable save baked in, despite not having them originally. But for editions phoenix lords didn't get one baked in, despite being in exactly the same position as marine characters before GW retconned iron halos et Al.



So yeah, immortal, perfect embodiments of war, powered by psychic energy, a mini infinity circuit, 11,000 years old (they're older than the primarchs and don't live in the eye where time is wobbly), priests of khaine (as all exarchs are).


I don't see why making them the equivalent of khainite daemon princes is in any way not true to the characters.

So if asurmen, most powerful of them looks like this:


M8 WS2+ BS2+ S5 T5 W6 A6 Ld10 Sv 2+

3++

Blade of asur - S+1 AP-3 D2 6s to wound cause 1D3 mortal wounds
OR Sx2 AP-4 D3 halve attacks value. 5s or 6s to wound cause 1D3 mortal wounds

Vengeance vambrace 18" S5 AP-3 D2 Assault 5


That's supernatural without being ridiculous.

If every other one was slightly worse that that, it doesn't make them seem completely unbeatable. It makes them look like an Eldar primarch.

 Hellebore wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All those souls aren't gonna matter if the stature of the armor isn't great or if the material isn't bound together by anything but pure will and dust. Remember they've died several times (outside who, Maugen and Fuegan?) and thats because they're really not infallible or as graceful as you think they are. Marine gets to even 400 YO that's impressive since they, well, die all the time too.

Same way we can pretend Lucius is this amazing duelist based on fluff but keep in mind he's died a lot himself. He's not all he thinks he's cracked up to be.

And the daemon primarchs haven't been infallible either, being 'killed' and locked in the warp for X many years.

This is the effect of having immortal characters, death becomes a plot point rather than anything meaningful.

So it therefore reflects nothing in the same way magnus' statline isn't reflected by the fact that Ragnar throwing a spear in his eye banished him.

A suit of wraithbone armour from the height of the Eldar empire powered by the psychic energy of the mightiest souls. Wraithguard are made of the same stuff and powered the same way. Hell a wraithguard only has one soul in it (and not even the mightiest souls like the phoenix lords) do and still has enough power to run the giant suit and power a deadly portal gun so there's no mystery about how powerful they could be.

You're correct about the Primarchs. That's why we don't go for fan wankery when it comes to balancing them and making rules, unless you want a 1500 point Magnus The Red.

He's already far more reflective of his fluff, I don't think many people consider him untrue to the character.


But the phoenix lords have been neglected and under powered for editions.

In 2nd ed they would pretty much always beat marine special characters, and maugan and karandras were toughness 6.

Yeeeeeeah about that:
1. You obviously haven't read the fluff if you think current Magnus is correct. Can only use certain powers on a VERY specific table? Can't change his size even more and entirely vaporize squads with just one power? Magnus in the fluff is utterly ridiculous. Hell, the Primarchs in general in fluff are ridiculous. Angron pre-Khorne was able to lift a Warhound Titan's leg. What Strength and Toughness value you think we're using for that?
2. You're going with stuff in 2nd Edition? Dude, Rogue Trader and 2nd haven't been relevant for fluff for maybe decades now.

Gw have been very conservative with eldar background, the current codex is basically printed word for word from the 2nd ed book which itself was mostly a reprint of the original RT era WD army list for them.


I'm pretty sure that smite can kill most of a squad if you roll well enough, so that covers Magnus' vaporisation ability.

Maugan ra also killed a biotitan with a single strike, but I take that as a combination of his attacks, max damage etc.


The rules also make it impossible for the spear of russ to remove magnus in one strike, but it was possible in the novels. But that doesn't make the current magnus rules OVERPOWERED either.


So given these opposite ends of the rules/fluff spectrum, from my perspective Magnus is pretty good ruleswise currently (although I imagine he will get better like mortarion just did).

But phoenix lords have been under represented for a while.


The stats I posted just before are not gratuitous, but they do represent the various aspects of a phoenix lord a bit better IMO. They're clearly not a proper eldar anymore, they're tougher, harder to kill and have very powerful combat styles.

But they aren't game breaking.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yeeeeeeah about that:
1. You obviously haven't read the fluff if you think current Magnus is correct. Can only use certain powers on a VERY specific table? Can't change his size even more and entirely vaporize squads with just one power? Magnus in the fluff is utterly ridiculous. Hell, the Primarchs in general in fluff are ridiculous. Angron pre-Khorne was able to lift a Warhound Titan's leg. What Strength and Toughness value you think we're using for that?
2. You're going with stuff in 2nd Edition? Dude, Rogue Trader and 2nd haven't been relevant for fluff for maybe decades now.

1. The way I look at it, Magnus's table stats don't really match his lore, BUT they do convey that he's much more scary than, for instance, a chaos lord or a hellbrute or what have you. Many (most?) units in 40k have rules that are rather toned down compared to their lore, but those rules also generally do a pretty good job of conveying how dangerous one unit is compared to another. The issue with phoenix lords is that their lore suggests they should be somewhere in the ballpark of an especially talented chapter master or possibly even a greater daemon, but their rules are generally more comparable to an unoptimized marine captain. Magnus's rules succeed in conveying that he's probably the scariest guy in the room. Phoenix lord rules fail because they convey that a PL is less impressive than the average archon or well-equipped captain.

2. The 2nd edition fluff for Phoenix Lords is still largely relevant. PLs have been largely unexplored despite being around for so long. For a more recent bit of fluff, the Jain Zar novel has the titular character dueling with a Keeper of Secrets. She's very uncertain as to whether or not she'd win that fight, but she's also worried about a sort of time limit she's under implying that she felt the duel would likely go on for a while before she'd die. Currently, Jain isn't all that scary to a Keeper.

As an aside, I've found that eldar novels/lore tend to be relatively reasonable when portraying their characters. In marine stories, a squad of five dudes is regularly enough to deal with a greater daemon and the army they rode in on. In his recent novels, Farsight comes across as being basically immune to ork armies; he's really only at risk of meaningful harm when he opts to do something risky and self-sacrificing. But in eldar novels, other factions have weight. In the Path series, the craftworlders don't roll over and give up when space marines show up, but the presence of marines does bring a sense of dread. Jain knows she's better off avoiding fights with greater daemons and warbosses when she can. No one (except Yriel) feels like they're guaranteed to walk away from Valedor in the novel of the same name. This is mostly an irrelevant aside, but I do find that eldar lore can generally be seen as a more "acceptable target" for mechanics than certain other armies (*cough* marines *cough*).

So if asurmen, most powerful of them looks like this:

M8 WS2+ BS2+ S5 T5 W6 A6 Ld10 Sv 2+

3++

Blade of asur - S+1 AP-3 D2 6s to wound cause 1D3 mortal wounds
OR Sx2 AP-4 D3 halve attacks value. 5s or 6s to wound cause 1D3 mortal wounds

Vengeance vambrace 18" S5 AP-3 D2 Assault 5

That's supernatural without being ridiculous.

Yeah. I think you could find a balanced, playable price point for something like that. Exactly how powerful a PL should be is, admittedly, a little ambiguous. Personally, I wouldn't expect them to be on the same level as primarchs, but anywhere from chapter master to greater daemon seems pretty justifiable.

Drazhar now has 5 attacks on his profile.

I'm hoping this is a reflection of an improvement on phoenix lord profiles as well.

So that at minimum they all look like this:

M7 WS2+ BS2+ S4 T4 W6 A5 Ld9 Sv 2+

Drazhar's previous profile had a 5++ as well.



Now if you were to go off this profile as the PL baseline, I would be expecting Asurmen to have A6.

Also, if you combine the current exarch power lists with this profile, Karandras would be S6 with the crushing blow exarch power.

I'm not sure how that power interacts with the scorpion claw, as it's adding to the strength value on the profile.

But either way, he'd be S10 or 12 with the claw.

Given that GW are unlikely to give them all S/T5, I reckon you could still roll all the exarch powers into their profiles and have a fairly good representation of the character.

So taking Karandras with all the scorpion abilities and using Drazhar's profile as a base he'd have the following:


M7 WS2+ BS2+ S4 T4 W6 A5 Ld9 Sv 2+

5++

Master of stealth (9" deployment)
Shadow strike (+1 to hit targeting units in cover)
Death by a thousand stings (6+ extra attack for him or other scorpion)

Plus exarch powers:

Stalker (-1 to hit while in cover)
Crushing Blow (+2S, so S6)
Scorpions Grasp (6s causes mortal wounds with scorpion claw)
Ambush (always fight first in cover)
Withdraw (make fallback moves)
Scorpions sting (Mandiblaster +1 - so rolled into the profile of the scorpion's bite)


Which I think is a good enough representation of his ability. It's pretty stupid that the PL's don't know all the powers they invented...

Of course this leaves his chainsword as a pointless weapon, which is why I just made it an extra set of attacks separate from his profile like a lot of other bonus weapons have in other profiles.

So I'd add that to this list:

Stinging Blade S+1 D1 AP-1 Does Additional 3 attacks with this weapon


I don't see the above as particularly overpowered.


















Automatically Appended Next Post:
To do this for Maugan Ra you'd get:

M7 WS2+ BS2+ S4 T4 W6 A5 Ld9 Sv 2+

5++

Whirlwind of Death (shoot maugetar twice)
Legacy of Altansar (re-roll wounds against chaos)
Inescapable death (hits on 2+ for shooting always)
Harvester (re-roll hits of 1 + reapers within 6")


Rapid shot (+1 shots on his weapon profile)
Rain of Death (maybe can target an enemy he can't see like the tempest launcher)
Grim Visage (-1 Ld from enemy units within 6")
Long ranged fire (+6" range)
Deadly touch (6s to wound inflict 2 mortal wounds in melee)
Focused fire (target characters within 18")

Only Rain of death is a problem as Maugan doens't use a tempest launcher. So either he doesn't get that power, or it's changed to work for him in some way.

Using the current rules for the maugetar combined with the above powers, they'd look like this:

Range 42" Assault 2 S6 -1AP D1 (dead infantry models do d3 mortal wounds)
Range 42" Assault 5 S6 -1AP D1
melee S+2 AP-2 D1D3 (6s to wound cause 2 mortal wounds)


that's a pretty respectable character (+1 shots and shoot twice means he's either firing 4 shrieker rounds, or 10 normal rounds).










Automatically Appended Next Post:
Based on existing profile, + new drazhar + exarch powers

Asurmen

M7 WS1+ BS1+ S4 T4 W6 A6 Ld9 Sv 2+

4++, 3++ in melee

hand of asuryan (invulonerable save for aspects)
Defence tactics (5+ overwatch)


Bladestorm (6s to hit score additional hit)
Defend (enemy at -1 to hit in melee)
Stand Firm (ignores morale tests)
Martial Adept (I just made him WS/BS 1+, so he always hits on 2+s due to cap on modifiers)
Shredding fire (-3 armour pen included in weapon profile)
Avenging strikes (this would have to be +1 to wound if he's injured)


Vengeance Vambrace 18" S4 AP-3 D1 Assault 4 (6s score additional hit)
Sword of Asur S+1 AP-3 D d3 6s to wound cause 1d3 mortal wounds


With this combination of abilities, when he takes a wound he's going to be wounding most things on a 3+ or a 4+,always hitting on 2+ etc.

How about completely normal statline for Phoenix Lords, but introduce a transhuman-like lighnting reflexes abilty where any to hit roll can only hit on an unmodified 4+.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
How about completely normal statline for Phoenix Lords, but introduce a transhuman-like lighnting reflexes abilty where any to hit roll can only hit on an unmodified 4+.

That was pitched earlier. Personally, I don't love it. It would be weird for vindicaires and astartes and sisters to be flummuxed by the phoenix lords' speed and grace while guardsmen and fire warriors aren't affected at all.

More wounds or a FNP would probably better represent the idea that the enemy struggles to land a meaningful hit. If we still compared stats to determine what number you hit on, t hat would work too, but alas.

I'll toss out a suggestion I've made for eldar in general in other threads: give them a ward save. Or maybe call it an "evasion save." Basically, a save that happens at the same step as FNP but negates all damage from the wound (instead of roll 1 die per damage like with FNP rules). It would reduce damage in a similar fashion to FNP, but you also avoid some of the weirdness of taking partial damage from really nasty weapons. FNP gets a little weird because just how many "glancing" blows can the guy take from plasma in a single fight? Instead of feeling like the plasmagun just tickled Baharroth's feathers, the evasion save would make it feel like he'd avoided the attack entirely.

Of course, there's arguably some merit in not negating the advantage of multi-damage weapons in this way, and reasonable people could be reluctant to introduce a new defensive mechanic.

You could also do a hit save.

Given the fact we've got a hard cap on modifiers, you can shift this to the target instead.


So Eldar in general, or phoenix lords in particular could have:

Unnatural Speed: Roll a dice for each hit made against this unit, on a 4+ that hit is ignored.

This is slightly worse than an invulnerable save as those are only made after a wound roll, so it's whittled down further.

But a phoenix lord with 4+ to ignore hits and 4++ to ignore wounds would be a pretty good representation.

 Hellebore wrote:
You could also do a hit save.

Given the fact we've got a hard cap on modifiers, you can shift this to the target instead.


So Eldar in general, or phoenix lords in particular could have:

Unnatural Speed: Roll a dice for each hit made against this unit, on a 4+ that hit is ignored.

I could see that. In general, however, I try to avoid passing the baton back and forth between players too many times. Making it happen at the FNP step (or between a normal save and FNP) is probably just very slightly faster and works as an abstraction about as well as rolling armor saves after a to-wound roll does. But that could definitely work.

This is slightly worse than an invulnerable save as those are only made after a wound roll, so it's whittled down further.

Probably having a brain fart, but wouldn't it be better than an invul/ward save? Nipping an attack die in the bud before the to-wound roll means that you'd be reducing the number of dice that potentially benefit from to-wound rerolls and trigger special effects on 6s.

So with drazhar getting an improved profile, I'm hoping this is an indication for the phoenix lords.

It's a safe bet that they'll get:

Eternal warrior: 4++
Ancient warrior: -1 to damage min 1 (have been suggesting this for a while).

And have the base profile:

M7 ws2+ bs2+ S4 T4 w6 A5 ld9 SV+

Assuming they'll be getting exarch powers and based on previous profiles I expect something like

Jain zar m8 A6
Karandras s6 (exarch power)
Baharoth M14
Fuegan S5
Maugan w7 (he was t6 in 2nd ed)

Asurmen A6 3++ melee





Automatically Appended Next Post:
So at most basic, my opinion for the CWE based on DE are:

guardians 4+ save (they're just as heavily armoured as warriors)
All aspects 3+ save (aspect armour is better and should just be streamlined)
Rangers 5+ save (with built in 6++ and -1 to hit)
ghosts 3+ save

Battlefocus - Attackers count their WS and BS as 1 lower than it actually is when attempting to hit an eldar unit. This is not considered a hit modifier.

Catapults: 24" assault 2 S4 AP0 d1 6s -2 ASM
avengers catapults: 24" assault 3 S4 AP0 D1 6s -3 ASM
Shuriken cannon: 36" assault 4 S5 AP-1 D2 6s -3 ASM

Lasblaster: 30" S3 AP0 D1 Assault 4
hawk blaster: 30" S3 AP-1 D1 Assault 4
scatter laser: 48" S6 AP-1 D1 Heavy 6
bright lance: 36" S8 AP-4 D3+D3 Heavy 1

Starcannon: 36" Heavy 3 S7 AP-3 D3

Missile launcher 48" heavy1 S8 AP-2 D1+d3
48" heavy D6+1 S5 AP-1 D1 Blast





Following on from this and based on incubi, the master ranks and veteran unit upgrades for dark eldar, I've thought that the CWE could do this:


Scorpions, Spears, Spiders*, Banshees (m8)
Exarch M7 WS2+ BS2+ S3 T3 W3 A4 Ld8 Sv3+
Aspect M7 WS2+ BS3+ S3 T3 W1 A3 Ld8 Sv3+

* slight redesign into a shooting/melee based unit using monofilament weapons

Avengers, Dragons, Hawks, Reapers
Exarch M7 WS2+ BS2+ S3 T3 W3 A3 Ld8 Sv3+
Aspect M7 WS3+ BS2+ S3 T3 W1 A2 Ld8 Sv3+


New HQ

Elder Exarch M7 WS2+ BS2+ S3 T3 W5 A4/5 Ld9 Sv3+

Each elder exarch can take a single aspect retinue of Returned Warriors, those who've trod this same path before and been drawn back to it. They have much more experience.

Returned warriors gain +1W and their WS and BS are 2+


autarch retinue - each autarch can upgrade a guardian squad to a veteran squad, each member is starting the long path of Command.

Veteran guardians: gain +1Ws or BS. Gain +1 wound (max squad size 10)
Any stratagem used on this squad is 1 pt less to a minimum of 1.



phoenix lords, These are my individualised statlines based on the character's background and theme. They will also have exarch powers:

Zar M8 WS2+ BS2+ S4 T4 W6 A6 Ld9 Sv2+

karandras M7 WS2+ BS2+ S6 T4 W6 A5 Ld9 Sv2+
S6 due to crushing blow exarch power

fuegan M7 WS2+ BS2+ S5 T4 W7 A5 Ld9 Sv2+

Asurmen M7 WS2+ BS2+ S5 T4 W6 A6 Ld9 Sv2+
3++ melee

Baharoth M14 WS2+ BS2+ S4 T4 W6 A5 Ld9 Sv2+

Maugan M7 WS2+ BS2+ S4 T5 W7 A5 Ld9 Sv2+
tough and implacable

I'd be alright with a lot of that, Hellebore. A few thoughts:

* I don't think making all aspect armor a 3+ is a must-have. It's kind of fluffy for reapers to be more durable than banshees. I could take or leave this change.

* I'm not sure why avenger catapults would have an extra shot. It would sort of make sense as a nod to their superior training with the weapon compared to other units. But you're already representing that with BS 2+ and the better rending on 6s rule. As a side note, I miss the old Bladestorm power from 4th edition where you got a third shot but couldn't fire the next turn. It actually created an interesting decision (slightly more firepower on a given turn for less firepower over the course of two turns) rather than being always a good choice as with many buffing stratagems.

* Making bright lance damage 2d3 creates a slight bell curve that will pull their average damage closer to 4. Personally, I take bright (and dark) lances for the chance to spike high on damage. So with that in mind, I'd either make it d6 min3 or d3 +3.

* I worry that flat 3 damage on starcannons might be too good. 3 shots and not overheating already makes them better than their imperial counterparts. Making them flat 3 damage risks making them better anti-tank than lances and missile launchers.

* I'd rather have the current AML than the one you've proposed. The lack of spiky damage (same average as now but a lower max) makes it a lot less appealing as an anti-tank weapon. The changes to the blast profile don't feel necessary to me; I like having T4 matter compared to T3 when getting shot by anti-infantry fire.

*All for making exarchs hit on 2+. I suspect that all units will be getting +1 Attacks per the drukhari changes, so melee aspects will probably look the way you propose. Making normal aspect warriors hit things with ranged weapons on a 2+ feels like it should be over the top, yet it kind of makes sense in a modern environment...

* You and I disagree on what it means to be a veteran of an aspect path, so I'll just note that I'm not a fan of "veterans" for eldar, but I'll leave it there.

I want to separate catapults and avenger catapults from one another and lasblasters and hawk blasters so that the guardians can still carry their own without just being a cheaper aspect.

So in this instance normal catapults are less punchy - lower AP on 6s and 2 shots. The dire avengers are more powerful and have more utility.

The bright lance should read D 3+D3, so minimum 4.

I don't have a problem with starcannons working like this because imperial plasma is completely safe at S7, they have to push it up to S8 to get that safety issue.

so when comparing it to a plasma cannon this starcannon doesn't look that great.

Given that the trueborn are BS2+ unmodifiable in the new DE codex (so better than a dark reaper), and incubi are WS2+ I feel like that's where aspects are going to go.

It's a pretty simple way of making them better in their role.


As to 'veteran' aspects - it just really doesn't parse for me that you're either an aspect at a static value, or you're not.

Eldar tread many paths in their lives and many will retread the same path without falling to it.

It seems logically inconsistent for an eldar to tread the warrior path 5 times and still be no better than the first time they trod it.

Hence my description of a 'veteran' aspect, being a 'returned' warrior - someone who has come back to that aspect again, bringing their experience they previously accrued to the war mask.

IMO it's not that this isn't possible or inaccurate, rather GW has never bothered to describe aspect shrines and their training in the same minutiae that marines have been, despite most likely being even MORE complex and deep than a marine's training because the eldar never do anything simply.

So I am just proposing what I would consider a natural conclusion from the description of the path and the training of the aspect.

They get flanderised into the sword aspect or the missile launcher aspect etc. But they're a whole philosophy.

Fire dragons for example will have an entire training method around their melee attacks, as melee is part of their battlefield role. Just as shuriken pistols are part of scorpion roles.

They are a whole training methodology and nothing is left out. They don't just give a banshee a pistol and say 'ignore this it's not part of your aspect philosophy, but carry it anyway'.

everything they do is deliberately incorporated into their training.

I don't disagree that fire dragons are well trained in melee martial arts or that pistols are philosophically important to the symbolism behind a striking scorpion's style. I just disagree that a returning aspect ought to be more skilled than a fresh one. To my mind, being an aspect warrior that is allowed on the field of battle means you've undergone enough training to be able to perform your shrine's maneuvers more or less perfectly. There's a high plataeu in skill that can only be climbed through the absolute obsession, experience, and supernatural mojo of an exarch. But reasonable people could think differently. I suspect you may be right regarding WS and BS values of 2+ in the future.

When an Eldar masters a path they leave it.

so I don't see aspect warriors as being masters of their path, but current practitioners of it.

The way the path works makes it impossible for an aspect warrior on the battlefield to be a master of the path


Someone that mastered their path, left it and then returned to it would thus be of a different skill level to someone who has yet to master it.

Here's the problem with what you guys want, especially regarding the comparison to Trueborn: compare weapons. As a whole, a Kalabites are not exactly the most dangerous unit with BS2+ due to the nature of their base weapon + how many dudes it takes to get the total of 2 Special Weapons and a Heavy, but those are all extra points too. I'd wager even something like Avengers are vastly more dangerous with BS2+, let alone the other shooting aspects.

Now that's not to be said I'm not totally against it. After all I've suggested WS2+ Vanguard, BS2+ Sternguard, and WS/BS2+ Terminators. However I'm not a fan of overly cheap units with that kind of accuracy, and Trueborn have an awfully specific requirement (never mind the fact you'd only get 3 units total with three whole detachments).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Here's the problem with what you guys want, especially regarding the comparison to Trueborn: compare weapons. As a whole, a Kalabites are not exactly the most dangerous unit with BS2+ due to the nature of their base weapon + how many dudes it takes to get the total of 2 Special Weapons and a Heavy, but those are all extra points too. I'd wager even something like Avengers are vastly more dangerous with BS2+, let alone the other shooting aspects.

Now that's not to be said I'm not totally against it. After all I've suggested WS2+ Vanguard, BS2+ Sternguard, and WS/BS2+ Terminators. However I'm not a fan of overly cheap units with that kind of accuracy, and Trueborn have an awfully specific requirement (never mind the fact you'd only get 3 units total with three whole detachments).

Point taken, although incubi already spend most of the game hitting on 2+ in melee as is. Making aspects hit on 2+ isn't necessarily my favorite way to go, but it doesn't seem all that farfetched either. Although I'd definitely rather see craftworlders focus on mobility and suppression/disruption over raw offense.

I'm not super fussed in that regard, it's more the precedent set by DE.

They now have units that have 2+ stats to reflect their skill. Incubi are basically aspect warriors and trueborn are basically as close to that without being one.

so it seems to me to make sense that they are equivalent that way.


Something I always find mystifying in these conversations is that there's this assumption that cost won't change, or it is somehow unbalanced because of cost.

I never talk cost first, I always talk rules. When the unit looks like it 'should' then you figure out an appropriate cost. Cost is entirely irrelevant to the conversation.