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I will say that the way trueborn are being handled now is a bit odd to me. The fluff behind trueborn is basically just that they're rich kids who can afford nice toys, tutors, and the life insurance policies to keep learning after they mess up. The access to better gear (ghostplate, more special weapons) reflected that pretty well. The new version are apparently... crack shots that could give reaper exarchs a run for their money at the shooting gallery. I guess they're really leaning into the tutor side of things, and every lesson is a marksmanship lesson?

Wyldhunt wrote:
I will say that the way trueborn are being handled now is a bit odd to me. The fluff behind trueborn is basically just that they're rich kids who can afford nice toys, tutors, and the life insurance policies to keep learning after they mess up. The access to better gear (ghostplate, more special weapons) reflected that pretty well. The new version are apparently... crack shots that could give reaper exarchs a run for their money at the shooting gallery. I guess they're really leaning into the tutor side of things, and every lesson is a marksmanship lesson?

Yeah seems to be. Which is not unlike an aspect warrior learning from an exarch I suppose.

If we assume that the incubi are DE aspects, then the Klaivex is most likely what an exarch will look like (for melee focused anyway), so for a scorpion that's M7 WS2+ BS3+ S3 T3 W2 A4 Ld9 Sv3+. Hoping that Banshee exarchs will look like this then: M8 WS2+ BS3+ S3 T3 W2 A4 Ld9 Sv3+

While a fire dragon exarch might look like M7 WS3+ BS2+ S3 T3 W2 A3 Ld9 Sv3+

I still want an HQ exarch because they don't just jump from that to phoenix lords, but will have to see if GW thinks the same or not.

Are incubi still A3 and A4? That's interesting. In 8th edition, I attributed them having more attacks than a scorpion or banshee to the extra attack being an artefact of the old gunhat rules. Mandiblasters also used to be +1 attack, but they've been one of several special attacks since 6th edition. The incubi "kept" the extra attack that used to come from their gunhat, but it seemed to just get lumped into their statline for simplicity's sake at some point.

So if normal incubi are just 3 Attacks base and scorpions get the +1 Attacks that drukhari did, that would put scorpions and incubi back at the same number of attacks. Interesting.

Hellebore wrote:As to 'veteran' aspects - it just really doesn't parse for me that you're either an aspect at a static value, or you're not.

Exarchs are ones who got lost to the Path, so they are very much Veterans of the Path.

Now, if you mean like a Tactical is an Astartes Path then Sternguard would be their Veteran of the Aspect, so we would have Banshees+, I agree that just doesn't make sense with the paradigm that GW has created in the lore.

Hellebore wrote:I still want an HQ exarch because they don't just jump from that to phoenix lords, but will have to see if GW thinks the same or not.

Isn't that what the Autarch is supposed to be? Or at least, they didn't get stuck on the Path, but otherwise have retained much their experience on Paths to be able to use some of those skills after dropping the Mask. I could be wrong, as it has been a while since I read Craftworld lore.

 Charistoph wrote:

Hellebore wrote:I still want an HQ exarch because they don't just jump from that to phoenix lords, but will have to see if GW thinks the same or not.

Isn't that what the Autarch is supposed to be? Or at least, they didn't get stuck on the Path, but otherwise have retained much their experience on Paths to be able to use some of those skills after dropping the Mask. I could be wrong, as it has been a while since I read Craftworld lore.

In the lore, autarchs aren't meant to be as skilled at combat as an exarch and certainly not better at combat than an exarch. Their thing is that having walked multiple paths allows them to appreciate a variety of paradigms on the battlefield and thus lead more effectively. Compare this to an exarch who has biases due to his intense devotion to a single aspect of war. Autarchs being beatsticks has always been a little weird and partly a result of their ability to mix and match aspect gear more efficiently than actual aspect warriors.

An HQ exarch would be cool, though it would be a bit weird for the other five sergeant exarchs in your army to be listening to the battle plan of a random scorpion exarch that doesn't necessarily even have a shrine of students to buddy up with. My preferred approach would probably be to leave exarchs as squad leaders but let the gap in their power and that of their students be more dramatic than most units. Makes more sense to me lore-wise, and avoids forcing phoenix lords to compete with their own students for the "aspect warrior hq" role.

But aren't the Phoenix Lords supposed to occupy that slot of being leaders of the Aspect Exarchs. Lost even more on the Path than they are?

 Charistoph wrote:
But aren't the Phoenix Lords supposed to occupy that slot of being leaders of the Aspect Exarchs. Lost even more on the Path than they are?

Pretty much. That's why my idea of the Exarch might be Phoenix Lord Lite. WS/BS2+, A4, W3.

 Charistoph wrote:
But aren't the Phoenix Lords supposed to occupy that slot of being leaders of the Aspect Exarchs. Lost even more on the Path than they are?

They created the aspects, so they're not the leaders so much as the founders of the aspects. Hence why they're often described in shorthand like aspect 'primarchs' while an exarch is more like an aspect captain.

Each aspect shrine has one or more exarchs in it who 'lead' that shrine. The phoenix lords don't have a shrine anymore, as it was destroyed by daemons and Arha iirc. So they are perpetual wanderers, moving from one fated battle to the next. They more often solo than they are in armies. So while they are considered the founders of the aspects and would be deferred to by any exarch they meet, they aren't technically the leaders of the shrines

Each shrine has its own founder, history and traditions. Each has its own name, heraldry and unique history. Each exarch is different as well. One might favour a weapon combo over another. Their individual exarch powers reflect their unique aspect preferences.

In fact in the EPIC armageddon release before 5th ed autarchs were created, they had an autarch that was nothing like the current one. In EA an autarch was a single exarch that unilaterally decided to take command of a warhost from the council of exarchs, they declared their autarchy (see attached doc).

the current autarch isn't on the path of the warrior at all, but on the path of command. Just as a warlock is on the path of the seer, but previously trod the path of the warrior, the autarch is on the path of command having previously trod the path of the warrior. Very different to the Exarch declaring autarchy.


So from a spiritual and philosophical perspective, every eldar on the path of the warrior and every eldar fallen to the path of the warrior would look up to the phoenix lord that founded an aspect of that path as the creator or perhaps 'enlightened' spiritual leader.

But 99% of the time, each aspect shrine is functioning under the command of its exarchs as they aren't in communication with the PLs nor are issued orders by them. They sometimes just show up to join in some fated fight and will defer to them out of respect and admiration.


Something else to consider in the sergeant-ification of exarchs (when they were HQ choices in 2nd ed), is that their role was oversimplified as well. Exarchs have fallen to the path of the warrior, just as farseers have fallen to the path of seer. Originally exarchs were not 'scorpion exarchs' or 'avenger exarchs' they were simply 'exarchs' and as they had fallen to the path, trod the WHOLE path, not just one aspect of it. Hence why they could mix and match aspect weaponry in 2nd ed and weren't tied to a specific aspect. Because the path of the warrior was their obsession, not the path of the warrior [subsection scorpion]. They were not bound to one aspect, even if they stayed with it for a length of time.

There was even the menshad korum, the hunter in chase of himself. The exarch who never stopped moving through the path, forever chasing themself through all the aspects forever.


The DE might have lost lots of unit options, but IMO the CWE have lost a lot of their more subtle and interesting background, the more highbrow detail around the aspects, the exarchs and how the shrines work, in favour of (IMO) fairly banal squad leaders. Exarchs deserve more than that. They were supposed to be the pinnacle of eldar martial perfection.

Bit of an aside: doesn't Maugan Ra technically have his shrine again? Wasn't his shrine on Altansar, which he's yoinked back out of the warp since it fell in there?

Wyldhunt wrote:
Bit of an aside: doesn't Maugan Ra technically have his shrine again? Wasn't his shrine on Altansar, which he's yoinked back out of the warp since it fell in there?

Good question. My understanding is that he's FROM Altansar, but there's no information on whether that's where he built his shrine - given that it was lost to the Eye it's entirely possible he left to learn the path of the warrior and it disappeared before he came back.

Regardless, it does seem as though he's the only one that has a home, shrine or not. Everyone else has lost theirs and their shrines.

I'm unsure if the Shrine of Asur that Asurmen set up counts as his shrine, all the asuryata's shrine or none of them.

Thinking on it, I guess Altansar probably fell into the warp *before* Maugan became one of Asurmen's students. I know The Fall was a drawn out thing, but I got the impression that things like planets falling into the warp mostly happened at roughly the same time. So it would be weird for the craftworld to fall into the warp *after* Maugan studied under Asurmen and then founded a shrine.